winkler@Apple.COM (Dan Winkler) (02/28/88)
As the author of the HyperTalk language and as an Apple employee, I am going to refrain from endorsing or criticizing any particular HyperCard book. However, I will say that there are some very poor ones out there that were thrown together in a matter of weeks and that are full of inaccuracies and examples that are not even syntactically correct (i.e. they were never tried). I feel there is a need for some informed criticism of these books in forums like this. I do not feel that the reviews I have seen so far have been informed. Folks, you shouldn't post a message to thousands of people around the world endorsing a book (or anything else) that you haven't thoroughly studied. I can't be the one to tell you that any particular book is dog meat, but I desperately want you to figure it out on your own and you haven't been doing too well so far.
dtw@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU (Duane Williams) (02/28/88)
Dan Winkler, author of HyperTalk, wrote: "I can't be the one to tell you that any particular book is dog meat, but I desperately want you to figure it out on your own and you haven't been doing too well so far." Let's see, what book could Dan Winkler think is "dog meat"? What books have been endorsed in this forum? Danny Gooman's book and Dan Shafer's book, at least. Are there any others? I would presume that Winkler is not referring to Goodman's book, since it was written under the guidance of people at Apple. (Despite the guidance of people at Apple, Goodman's book is pretty elementary--not much better than just studying the online help that comes with HyperCard.) So what books are left that he might be referring to? Shafer's?
ns@CAT.CMU.EDU (Nicholas Spies) (02/29/88)
In article <988@PT.CS.CMU.EDU> dtw@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU (Duane Williams) writes: > >Dan Winkler, author of HyperTalk, wrote: >"I can't be the one to tell you that any particular book is dog meat, but I >desperately want you to figure it out on your own and you haven't been doing >too well so far." Perhaps Dan Winkler would do himself and the world a favor if he wrote the definitive HyperTalk book; he could do for HC what K&R does for C. AND his first name is "Dan", which seems to be sine qua non for HC books so far :-> I learned HC from a printout of the "Help" stack and an early release of APDA stuff; the "Help" stack should simply be expanded, by Apple, to cover the undocumented stuff in HC, as well as XCMD stuff. It would be fairly easy to for Apple to supply ALL documentation on-line rather than supplying alot of stacks that are useful only for total novices. Indeed, this would be a perfect demonstration of the power of HyperCard... Instead, Apple has included only partial information, giving Danny Goodman the opportunity to print money (reported 100,000 sales) but his extremely poorly-indexed, overlong book _still_ doesn't tell half the story. I immediately got the feeling that Apple gave Goodman this opportunity because of his MacWorld and PC World connections. Another extremely annoying tie-in is the free advertising that Goodman has gotten with the release of the demo "Business Class", which is plugged in his book as well. I flipped through Shafer's book, but decided that paying another ~$25 wasn't going to double my understanding of HC so I didn't. Even if Dan Winkler is right, his diatribe can only have a chilling effect on others trying to make a buck providing information that Goodman and Apple haven't (at least in a usable form). What is needed is a straight-forward, spriral-bound book (to lie flat) about the size of the Laserwriter manual that tells all, with an alphabetized section with every HyperTalk keyword explained in full in 1-3 pages apiece, with code examples and caveats. Another section should groups keywords by function, with pointers to the main entries. And, it needs a complete index. Come to think of it, this sounds alot like the HC help stack...it just needs to be completed and rearranged a bit. -- Nicholas Spies ns@cat.cmu.edu.arpa Center for Design of Educational Computing Carnegie Mellon University
ns@CAT.CMU.EDU (Nicholas Spies) (02/29/88)
Please post instructions/guidelines for posting stacks. (Where, how big, at what intervals if big, etc). My stack is ~80K. -- Nicholas Spies ns@cat.cmu.edu.arpa Center for Design of Educational Computing Carnegie Mellon University
sysop@stech.UUCP (Jan Harrington) (02/29/88)
in article <991@PT.CS.CMU.EDU>, ns@CAT.CMU.EDU (Nicholas Spies) says: > > Please post instructions/guidelines for posting stacks. (Where, how big, > at what intervals if big, etc). My stack is ~80K. > > > -- > Nicholas Spies ns@cat.cmu.edu.arpa > Center for Design of Educational Computing > Carnegie Mellon University You might want to wait a bit before posting your stack. We're in the midst of a vote to create a new group - comp.binaries.hypercard. Voting will continue until March 16, at which time (if things keep up as they are) we'll have the new group. Assuming that the group does get created, I'll be moderating it and will post rules for submitting stacks as soon as the group is official. To tell you the truth, your stack will get onto the net just as fast if you wait for the new group (again, being optomistic about the vote ...) as it would if you sent it along today to comp.binaries.mac, where there is a large backlog. Jan Harrington, sysop Scholastech Telecommunications UUCP: ihnp4!husc6!amcad!stech!sysop or allegra!stech!sysop BITNET: JHARRY@BENTLEY ******************************************************************************** Miscellaneous profundity: "No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai ********************************************************************************
geb@cadre.dsl.PITTSBURGH.EDU (Gordon E. Banks) (03/02/88)
In article <7495@apple.Apple.Com> winkler@Apple.COM (Dan Winkler) writes: >As the author of the HyperTalk language and as an Apple employee, I am >going to refrain from endorsing or criticizing any particular HyperCard >book. However, I will say that there are some very poor ones out there >that were thrown together in a matter of weeks and that are full of >inaccuracies and examples that are not even syntactically correct >(i.e. they were never tried). I agree. I have seen three books so far and bought two (Goodman and Shafer). While I learned a lot from them, both are inadequate, incomplete and poorly organized. What we need is something like the unix manual or Kernighan and Ritchie, where we can find each function and what it does, with examples. We don't need pages and pages of introduction to Hypercard for the brain-damaged. I would suggest Dan Winkler as author, except I would rather have him hack hypercard to make it better, since everyone recognizes it needs improvement, despite being an ingenious advance in the art of software. I am sure someone good will soon come out with a complete book, and eagerly await it with my dollars.
edwards@bgsuvax.UUCP (Bruce Edwards) (03/08/88)
In article <990@PT.CS.CMU.EDU>, ns@CAT.CMU.EDU (Nicholas Spies) writes: > In article <988@PT.CS.CMU.EDU> dtw@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU (Duane Williams) writes: > > > APDA stuff; the "Help" stack should simply be expanded, by Apple, to cover > the undocumented stuff in HC, as well as XCMD stuff. It would be fairly easy > to for Apple to supply ALL documentation on-line rather than supplying alot > of stacks that are useful only for total novices. Indeed, this would be a > perfect demonstration of the power of HyperCard... > and.... > What is needed is a straight-forward, spriral-bound book (to lie flat) about > the size of the Laserwriter manual that tells all, with an alphabetized > section with every HyperTalk keyword explained in full in 1-3 pages apiece, > with code examples and caveats. Another section should groups keywords by > function, with pointers to the main entries. And, it needs a complete index. > Come to think of it, this sounds alot like the HC help stack. AMEN, AMEN and AMEN! Why does everybody have to have DEVELOPER status to get any straight skinney outta APPLE anymore....what's happening over there boys? 'These are only the shadowlands.' C.S. Lewis ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Jenkins as guest @ CSNET: edwards@bgsu ARPANET: edwards%bgsu@csnet-relay UUCP: cbosgd!osu-cis!bgsuvax!edwards US Mail: c/o Century Marketing Corp. 12836 S. Dixie Hwy. Bowling Green , OH 43402 Phone: In Ohio 1-800-821-5409 Out of Ohio 1-800-537-9429 or 1-419-354-2591 -----------------------------------------------------------------
usenet@agate.BERKELEY.EDU (USENET Administrator) (03/14/88)
"Developers Stack", by Steve Draga. Along with dozens of useful XCMD's, it had a quick HyperTalk reference guide, listing all HyperCard commands, functions, constants, etc. I simply extracted the text, formatted it, and printed it out. Now I have a thorough, alphabatized HyperTalk reference guide. If I need example scripts, I can refer to the Goodman book, or equivelent. This is really what I wanted; a quick reference to all HyperCard keywords. From: dano1@garnet.berkeley.edu (Dan Callaway) Path: garnet.berkeley.edu!dano1 Dan Callaway ucbvax!garnet.berkeley.edu!dano1