mason@hillst.dec.com (Explaining is not understanding) (03/09/88)
Maybe 25 years in this business have mellowed me a little, but I think there
should be little room (1st amendment notwithstanding) for the likes of the
Hypercard stack entitled "Inigo Goes to Hell". I happen to pass on these
stacks to a friend with a 3 year old who loves them. The only saving grace
about the above mentioned stack is that the authors, possibly by oversight,
gave a hint to its real contents in the title. Oh, there is another - they
did an excellent job of plagiarizing the graphics - it looks very much like
the real thing. In the future, it would be nice if there were a definitive
method of indicating on the net whether a product was of this sort. The
authors may be bright; they may be educated; they may be righteously indignant
that someone actually used their techno-domain for some simple fun; but
they are certainly not very sensitive in the use of their talents if this is
a representative sample of their work. I am very glad that I look at these
before I forward them - the three year old in question understands Inigo
stories, and couldn't care less about the Constitution.
Gary
** The preceding message is my personal opinion only. **rmh@Apple.COM (Rick Holzgrafe) (03/10/88)
In article <8803081412.AA12049@decwrl.dec.com> mason@hillst.dec.com (Explaining is not understanding) writes: >Maybe 25 years in this business have mellowed me a little, but I think there >should be little room (1st amendment notwithstanding) for the likes of the >Hypercard stack entitled "Inigo Goes to Hell". I happen to pass on these >... >Gary I'm a staunch supporter of the First Amendment, and I believe that people should be allowed to publish trash if they wish to. I think your habit of pre-reading not only HyperCard stacks, but *anything* you give to a 3-year old is a good idea. Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion of "Inigo Goes to Hell". The remainder of this posting is an open letter to its authors, and anyone of like mind: You shouldn't have bothered. If all you wanted was attention, well, you've gotten it: congratulations. But what other reason did you think you had? Were you trying to show your creativity? You didn't; you merely ripped off Amanda, in a very obvious fashion. Were you trying to show that you are adults, by poking fun at a children's story? Your effort struck me as remarkably childish. Were you trying to be satirical? You weren't successful; nothing in "Inigo Goes to Hell" made me think any less of Amanda's stories, or of any well-written children's literature. Were you simply trying to be funny? I can laugh at many things, including things that "aren't funny": war, death, disaster. People laugh at these things because they are unavoidable, and laughter helps us cope. But torturing kittens (or anyone innocent and helpless) is not funny, and is not unavoidable: there is no excuse for it in either reality or fiction. If you wish to write underground comics in HyperCard, go ahead. But continue the practice of titling them (as you did "Inigo Goes to Hell") so that people can guess the nature of the contents, and *please* show enough taste to avoid poking crude, cruel, and unimaginative fun at people who, like Amanda, have shown themselves to be much finer HyperAuthors than you have so far. ========================================================================== Rick Holzgrafe | {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!rmh Communications Software Engineer | AppleLink HOLZGRAFE1 rmh@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. | "All opinions expressed are mine, and 20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 27-Y | do not necessarily represent those of Cupertino, CA 95014 | my employer, Apple Computer Inc."
alibaba@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Alexander M. Rosenberg) (03/10/88)
I thought that I would follow up here for those following the "Inigo goes to Hell" flames. This morning, I received a call from Bob Goodenough. He was distressed about "Inigo goes to Hell". I think that he has quite a right to be mad, as I am sure Amanda was. He just wanted a copy of the stack, so that he might be able to figure out who did it. This whole thing reminds me of an old Apple ][ occurance: Sierra On-Line produced a game called "Sammy Lightfoot." A cute little guy works at the circus, and this provides the means for a cute game. Well, some of the good ole boys thought it would be cute to write a BASIC program called, "KILL SAMMY." Kill Sammy allowed you to choose one of many disgusting ways of executing Sammy Lightfoot. One of them was even by Chainsaw, accompanied by sound effects and spraying blood. This is a little too gruesome. Apparently, the Williams' were not happy. "Inigo goes to Hell" is the same sort of thing. It is a tasteless execution of poking-fun at something that doesn't really deserve to be made fun of. What makes it worse, is that somebody spent some time drawing "Hell." The fact that the stack has some good art in it makes it much harder to ignore. My experience leads me to believe that "Inigo goes to Hell" will receive a medium to good distribution throughout the country, mostly via BBSs. To whomever wrote that stack: I you had ever met Amanda before you wrote that stack, you would not have done it. I had the good fortune of being present at The Boston Computer Society's semi-annual Shareware/Public Domain Awards, at which Amanda received a cash prize, and a plaque for "Inigo Gets Out." Amanda is a person whom one cannot conceive of hurting. As far as I could tell, there isn't one bad bone in her body. She is probably pretty hurt by what you have done, and you should be ashamed. What you have done is created a stack that ranks worse than "Smut Stack?!?" I find it excrutiatingly hard to believe that anybody would do this. So one or two people out there will get a laugh from what you did, but I for one did not think it funny. Not only is it a personal strike against Amanda, but also it could ruin some things that she has in the works, as Bob told me. If you choose not to stand behind what you do, then you are no better than the people who have written the recent virus programs. While it may seem funny, it hurts more than it is worth. To conclude, I'll just say that I am sorry that the Goodenoughs even heard about "Inigo goes to Hell," as it is clearly something which they did not deserve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Alexander M. Rosenberg ~ INTERNET: alibaba@ucscb.ucsc.edu ~ Yoyodyne ~ ~ Crown College, UCSC ~ UUCP:...!ucbvax!ucscc!ucscb!alibaba~ Propulsion ~ ~ Santa Cruz, CA 95064 ~ BITNET:alibaba%ucscb@ucscc.BITNET ~ Systems ~ ~ (408) 426-8869 ~ Disclaimer: Nobody is my employer ~ :-) ~ ~ ~ so nobody cares what I say. ~ ~
kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu (Stephen Kurtzman) (03/13/88)
In article <2302@saturn.ucsc.edu> alibaba@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Alexander M. Rosenberg) writes: >I thought that I would follow up here for those following the "Inigo >goes to Hell" flames. > >This morning, I received a call from Bob Goodenough. He was distressed >about "Inigo goes to Hell". I think that he has quite a right to be mad, >as I am sure Amanda was. He just wanted a copy of the stack, so that he >might be able to figure out who did it. Since there were a lot of flames about "Inigo goes to Hell", I had to download it to see for myself. Lighten up, people. It looked like an adolescent's response to what s/he percieved to be an insipid stack. I don't know what Bob Goodenough is going to do if he finds out what teenager made "Inigo goes to Hell". He certainly has no legal recourse since "Inigo gets out" is not copyrighted (I searched high and low for a copyright message in the copy I have and I found none). >... "Inigo goes to Hell" is the same sort of thing. It is a tasteless >execution of poking-fun at something that doesn't really deserve >to be made fun of. Well, apparently you and the author of "Inigo goes to Hell" have a difference of opinion. As tasteless as you may have found it, you must admit that Scott Watson had a funny look on his face as poor little Inigo warmed himself on the car radiator. > What makes it worse, is that somebody spent some time drawing "Hell." I repeat, lighten up. Hell has been the subject of many artistic and literary works (not the least of which is the Bible). If some teenager has an active imagination, the desire for a little rebellion and anti-social activity, and some time to spend, I'd much rather they draw Hell than raise it. >To whomever wrote that stack: > >... Amanda is a person whom one cannot conceive of hurting. ... >She is probably pretty hurt ... you should be ashamed. ... >I find it excrutiatingly hard to believe that anybody would do this. Life is rough. Whoever told you things would always be sweetness and light did you a great disservice. Seriously, your emotions seem way out of proportion for what seems little more than a teenage prank. >Not only is it a personal strike against Amanda, ... I doubt the authors intended it to be anything other than parody. Interpretting the stack as a personal strike against anyone is overreaction.
alibaba@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Alexander M. Rosenberg) (03/14/88)
Without flaming in the slightest, let me say that you are the type of person who makes me cringe when I start reading Rec.Arts.Startrek. You missed my point just a wee bit. I was trying to say that I personally thought that Inigo Goes to Hell was a little bit cute, but I also could imagine the problems that Amanda is going through. Bob told me that they have some discussions in the works for doing commercial products with big companies with the Inigo concept. This sort of cute thing can ruin that, and for them is something very serious. As for the copyright on Inigo Gets Out: The version of Inigo Gets Out is a preliminary stack that Bill Atkinson originally handed out at the HyperCard introdcution, to press, and to User Group Asbassadors. They later produced a newer version that does have the copyright. Not only that, but later stacks featuring Inigo (Inigo's Dream, and Inigo Takes a Bath) do have a character and stack copyright. Not only that, but the law allows for implied copyrights on the concept and character. A Parody is one thing, but Inigo Goes to Hell does not identify itself as such, and therefore can be construed to be a personal attack on Amanda. Note also that as far as parodies go, I personally believe that anything anybody (even Larry Flynt) says about Jerry Falwell is very justified. If you have any information as to how to contact the authors of the stack Inigo Goes to Hell, please mail me, as I have been asked to try and find out who did it. (Apparently no legal actions are going to be taken, although I am speculating here, and this should not be considered the official view of Amanda or Bob Goodenough, just my speculation.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Alexander M. Rosenberg ~ INTERNET: alibaba@ucscb.ucsc.edu ~ Yoyodyne ~ ~ Crown College, UCSC ~ UUCP:...!ucbvax!ucscc!ucscb!alibaba~ Propulsion ~ ~ Santa Cruz, CA 95064 ~ BITNET:alibaba%ucscb@ucscc.BITNET ~ Systems ~ ~ (408) 426-8869 ~ Disclaimer: Nobody is my employer ~ :-) ~ ~ ~ so nobody cares what I say. ~ ~
ns@CAT.CMU.EDU (Nicholas Spies) (03/15/88)
Several years ago there was an article in the New Yorker by Bruno Bettelheim (sp) in which he defended fairy tales that had acts of cruelty, dismemberment and the like because they were a valuable means for a child to become aware of his/her darker side. A little _shadenfreude_ doesn't seem to cause brain damage... It's too bad for the Goodenough's that they were made fun of by "Hell" (which I haven't seen), but in a way it is a tribute in that the original stack would hardly be worth the trouble to parody if it were not charming. -- Nicholas Spies ns@cat.cmu.edu.arpa Center for Design of Educational Computing Carnegie Mellon University