erc@pai.UUCP (Eric Johnson) (07/15/88)
[I hope this isn't a boring repeat request...If so, I plead insanity.]
I am looking at the prospects for creating a CD-ROM collection of
linked information. The project would need a friendly user interface
and the ability to have multiple media, e.g., text, sound and graphics.
(The project, if we start it, will be for a non-profit organization, with
volunteers collecting the data and building information links. The
idea is to use CD-ROM to get out the information in one large, linked
source.)
At first glance, HyperCard with an Apple CD-ROM drive seems ideal for this,
with:
* An easy to use interface for the user
* An easy to generate interface for the developer
* Great support for linking information to other wells of info
* Ability to include text, graphics and sound
Could anyone with experience with this type of application email me
some info on (I will summarize for the net if I get enough info):
1) With HyperCard, is a CD-ROM drive essentially a large floppy, or
will I have to write special software to access the drive? It seems the
ideal solution would be to create a series of linked stacks on a
hard disk, and then simply copy the stacks to the CD, treating
the CD like a very large hard disk.
With the links built into the stacks in HyperCard, it seems that
treating the CD as a disk is the easiest way to go. If special
software needs to be written, does anyone have pointers to where
I can find out what to do?
2) Are there any limitations to running Hypercard stacks on a CD?
Obviously the media is read-only, but are there other limitations
that may bite me?
3) What would be the best type of stack organization on a CD:
many smaller stacks, or a few very large ones? For which is
HyperCard most efficient?
4) Is the CD-ROM mastering process much the same for the Apple
drive as for other CD-ROM drives, or do we have to find a special
Apple-compatible masterer? When I read about mastering costing only
$1,500 and reproduction only ~$2 per disk, it looks like the age of
CD-ROM is here. (Now, if only they would make the drives cheaper.)
What are the real costs to be expected for mastering, packaging, etc.?
5) What are some common pitfalls others have encountered when creating
similiar applications? Any experiences to share?
I would appreciate any information net readers have, and any
pointers to printed info that I can look up. I would like to know
if our organization would be getting in over its head before
we get in over our heads.
Please email all responses to me at
bungia!pai!erc
or sun!tundra!pai!erc
I will summarize for the net if others would like this information.
Thank you in advance for your efforts,
Eric
--
Eric F. Johnson | Phone +1 612-894-0313 | Are we
Prime Automation,Inc | UUCP: bungia!pai!erc | having
12201 Wood Lake Drive | UUCP: sun!tundra!pai!erc | fun
Burnsville, MN 55337 USA | BIX: erc | yet?blob@Apple.COM (Brian Bechtel) (07/19/88)
In article <183@pai.UUCP> erc@pai.UUCP (Eric Johnson) writes: >1) With HyperCard, is a CD-ROM drive essentially a large floppy, or >will I have to write special software to access the drive? A CDROM drive is essentially a large,fast floppy. You use the same calls that you use for any HFS volume. (This will continue to be true for High Sierra formatted discs as well.) >It seems the ideal solution would be to create a series of linked >stacks on a hard disk, and then simply copy the stacks to the CD, >treating the CD like a very large hard disk. If you have a large enough hard disk ... :-) Yes, this is correct. But remember the performance hit due to the slow seek time of CDROM drives! >With the links built into the stacks in HyperCard, it seems that >treating the CD as a disk is the easiest way to go. If special >software needs to be written, does anyone have pointers to where >I can find out what to do? No special software needs to be written. >2) Are there any limitations to running Hypercard stacks on a CD? >Obviously the media is read-only, but are there other limitations >that may bite me? The seek time on CDROM is much slower than that of hard disks. You should be sure to optimize the placement of your data so that extensive seeking isn't required. Hypercard 1.2.1 is completely compatible with read-only media. >3) What would be the best type of stack organization on a CD: >many smaller stacks, or a few very large ones? For which is >HyperCard most efficient? I'll have to let someone else comment on this one. On the Learning Disc that we distributed at the Microsoft CDROM Conference, we had five sets of stacks for the demonstrations of work in progress on that disc: * Whole Earth Catalog 18 stacks, plus 66 sound stacks (over 2 hours of processor-quality sound was included in these stacks) * Grollier's U.S. History 13 stacks * Univ. of Southern California Freshman Writing project 5 stacks * Project Perseus (Harvard/Bowdoin Ancient Greek civilization) 21 stacks * Stanford School of Medicine Electronic Cadaver 1 stack So it depends upon what you're trying to do. Logically, I'd suspect that it makes sense to create a new stack if what you are showing the user is a distinct phase of the data. (By the way, we DON'T have any more learning discs; we handed them all out at the conference, and can not press any more.) >4) Is the CD-ROM mastering process much the same for the Apple >drive as for other CD-ROM drives, or do we have to find a special >Apple-compatible masterer? When I read about mastering costing only >$1,500 and reproduction only ~$2 per disk, it looks like the age of >CD-ROM is here. (Now, if only they would make the drives cheaper.) >What are the real costs to be expected for mastering, packaging, etc.? Well, according to a typical example price list I have in front of me, (Discovery Systems) costs are: $1500.00 for mastering the disc $2.00 per disc, duplication fee $0.25 per disc, jewel box $0.05 per disc, insertion of folder, booklets or liner $0.05 per disc, shrink wrap with all printed materials supplied by the customer. >5) What are some common pitfalls others have encountered when creating >similiar applications? Any experiences to share? There is a limitation as to the number of distinct icons that can appear on a volume. The Finder uses the Resource Manager to keep track of the desktop file (containing links from file types to icons). The maximum number of resources in a file is 2,727 (see TN 141). The Finder needs four resources (at least) for each application (BNDL, FREF, ICN#, signature) so this limits you to no more than 681 applications (roughly. You may have other resources in this file, so the actual number may be smaller.) This will be addressed in a future version of the Finder. Meanwhile, keep the number of distinct icons down. This isn't a problem for most applications; people pressing large amounts of public domain software are the only ones we've found so far who hit this limit. Brian Bechtel blob@apple.apple.com "Although this may look like interesting information, it's my opinion, not Apple's."
dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) (07/22/88)
Very briefly, HyperCard 1.2 was a release specifically to support the Apple CD-SC player. Pressing an HFS CD-ROM is easy and costs the same as pressing any other CD-ROM: about $1500 for mastering and approximately $2-3 per disk. Some companies are even throwing in 100 disks as part of a $1500 promo. Think of the Apple CD-SC as a large (550 MB) locked hard disk. Other than that limitation, there is nothing special to use it as such. No special drivers need to be written, but you must use at least version 1.2 of HyperCard. Much more information about designing stacks and using a CD-ROM drive can be found in Apple's publication "Stackware Design Guidelines" which is available from APDA. It will also be available at MacWorld in Boston in the middle of August at the show. HyperCard seems to perform the best with stacks in the under 10000 card area, although we hope to continue to improve its performance and reliability with stacks of millions of cards potentially. I understand that we just created a stack of 600,000 cards for testing!! In any case, choosing a stack size is very dependant upon what kind of information, what kind of linking is needed between stacks, etc. Yes, the age of CD-ROM is here, and for $1500 you can get your own disks pressed. The project should be fun, easy, inexpensive, and will be very useful. Dan Allen Software Explorer Apple Computer
landman%hanami@Sun.COM (Howard A. Landman) (07/28/88)
In article <14447@apple.Apple.COM> dan@apple.apple.com.UUCP (Dan Allen) writes: >Pressing an HFS CD-ROM is easy and costs the same >as pressing any other CD-ROM: about $1500 for mastering and >approximately $2-3 per disk. Some companies are even throwing in 100 >disks as part of a $1500 promo. Where can I find out what format the CD manufacturers want to see the data in? I presume it's 9-track tape of some sort, but what sort? >HyperCard seems to perform the best with stacks in the under 10000 card >area, although we hope to continue to improve its performance and >reliability with stacks of millions of cards potentially. I understand >that we just created a stack of 600,000 cards for testing!! In any >case, choosing a stack size is very dependant upon what kind of >information, what kind of linking is needed between stacks, etc. Anytime you want, I can generate a stack with over 3 million cards with lots of card buttons linking them to each other and perhaps even some card graphics. All I need is a big enough disk to hold it ... and enough CPU power to generate it in less than a couple of days ... and about a week's notice. How many cards would a HyperCard stack hold if an entire CD was used for one stack? Howard A. Landman landman@hanami.sun.com UUCP: sun!hanami!landman
dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) (07/28/88)
In article <61659@sun.uucp> landman@sun.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) writes: >Where can I find out what format the CD manufacturers want to see the data in? >I presume it's 9-track tape of some sort, but what sort? I am not sure of the exact format. We use (if I recall correctly) a device called the CD-ROM Publisher from Meridian Systems. It has a large 1.2 GB hard disk and a 9-track tape drive. I have put VAX/UNIX readable tapes on the drive with some success. >it in less than a couple of days ... and about a week's notice. How many cards >would a HyperCard stack hold if an entire CD was used for one stack? A card occupies a minimum of 50 bytes, plus the amount of text, graphics, and scripts that are associated with it. When stacks have over 100,000 cards, however, HC does get slower and such a stack may require more than 1 MB of RAM. I would recommend that stacks be kept smaller than 100,000 cards for many practical reasons. Dan Allen Software Explorer Apple Computer