dlw@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (David L. Williams) (12/06/88)
Interesting to find this out after Dan Allen's posting about no real new features to Hypercard(God only knows when HC 2.0 will show). It will be really interesting to see if this comes to pass. How long would it take the 4 Apple Hypercard programmers to add in support for multiple windows and the like? Perhaps Apple should sub-contract out to Silicon Beach! ;) From the December 5 88 Infoworld: Apple Computer's Hypercard will no longer be the only player in its unique product category when Silicon Beach Software announces in January a Hypercard work-alike, Supercard. The program offers several important functions not currently available in Hypercard. Among the key improvements are its support for color and use of the full screen, sources said. The program will be available in the second quarter of next year. No pricing was available. With Supercard, users can import existing Hypercard stacks or create standalone applications using Supercard's Hypertalk-compatible scripting language, Supertalk, the sources said. The program also supports multiple resizable windows and has extensive drawing fucntions. Silicon Beach officials declined to comment. "A program that's like Hypercard but has a lot of the capabilities missing in Hypercard would be a very viable product" said Ashok Jain, editor of Macintosh Market Report, of Irvine, California. Apple multimedia evangelist Jim Armstrong compared the introduction of Hypercard-compatibles to Silicon Beach's successful introduction of Superpaint at a time Apple was bundling MacPaint with every Macintosh. He added that Bill Atkinson's priority is to ensure Hypercard is optimized for the entire Mac line, an element that might help distinguish it from Hypercard workalikes. Sources said at least tow other companies will introduce Hypercard-like programs next year.
dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) (12/07/88)
I do not know anything more about Supercard or any other HyperCard clone than what we have all read in the rumors of Info World and other rags. I DO know that before anyone should get too excited about clones they should ask these questions: Will it run on a Mac Plus or SE with only 1 megabyte? Is it REALLY stack compatible? Is their HyperTalk really complete? Or did they only implement part of HyperTalk? (I have my doubts in this area) We welcome competition and wish them good luck. One final note: HyperCard 2.0 WILL have lots of great new features. Lest I be misunderstood, we are working on many great and new and revolutionary things, that's why it is taking a bit of time. Look forward to it in the future, but in the meantime use and enjoy HC 1.2.2. Dan Allen HyperCard Team Apple Computer
sbb@esquire.UUCP (Stephen B. Baumgarten) (12/08/88)
In article <16310014@hpsmtc1.HP.COM> dlw@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (David L. Williams) writes: >Interesting to find this out after Dan Allen's posting about no real new >features to Hypercard(God only knows when HC 2.0 will show). It will be really >interesting to see if this comes to pass. How long would it take the 4 Apple >Hypercard programmers to add in support for multiple windows and the like? >Perhaps Apple should sub-contract out to Silicon Beach! ;) Perhaps they should. Don't get me wrong, I think Hypercard is terrific. But does anyone else get the feeling that Hypercard will be updated and improved on as "timely" a basis as all the other in-house Apple applications were? MacWrite, MacPaint, MacDraw, and MacTerminal were all fantastic when they were first released, but then were frozen for almost three years, as third-party applications far exceeded their limitations (although it took a while to top MacDraw). Finally, Apple gave MacWrite, MacPaint and MacDraw to Claris and all three have been updated to one degree or another; with the exception of MacWrite, all three have had extensive functionality added. Note also that the time required to perform this updating was minimal, especially as compared to the years Apple had. MacTerminal, on the other hand, which Apple kept in-house and classified as "system-software", has been given a couple of cursory updates (to fix bugs and incompatibilities, I believe, not to extend functionality) and that was it. It's still not substantially better than it was four years ago, and there's been not a peep out of Apple about an imminent new update. Maybe Hypercard will be different, but aside from supporting a few more commands and working with locked stacks, Hypercard is no different now than it was the day it was released. That's too bad, since it's such a great program, and it has such potential. But it's still breathtakingly slow, it still doesn't support true hypertext in any real sense (i.e., links associated with text, rather than card position), and of course no color or full-screen cards. And, unless you're using something like the third-party Reports!, you can forget about printing altogether. Again, I *do* think Hypercard is amazing just the way it is, but for those of us who saw the pictures in MacWEEK of a prototype screen from SuperCard, Hypercard's limitations become all too apparent, and we are once again reminded of just how slowly development is proceeding within Apple. Comments anyone? -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." cmcl2!esquire!sbb | esquire!sbb@cmcl2.nyu.edu | - David Letterman
Lou@cup.portal.com (William Joseph Marriott) (12/08/88)
Additional information on SuperCard, from MacWEEK 6 Dec 88:
Purported features:
- Color Support; Large Screen support
- Reads HyperCard XCMDs, XFCNs, converts HC stacks and scripts
- Enhanced Scripting capability
- Can create stand-alone applications
- Support for real Mac-type windows
- Wholly Customizeable Tools, Menu Bar
- Object oriented and bitmapped graphics, ala SuperPaint
(including autotrace feauture)
- Any object, including graphics, may have a script
Windows apparently function as their own stack, with one "card" per
stack visible at any one time.
Silicon Beach did speak with MacWEEK. Said SuperCard apps would be 250K
and up in size, but would be stand-alone. Windows could be 34 feet by
34 feet in size (hmm... who markets a 40-foot monitor?). Said they
were not cloning HyperCard, but extending the standard.
Color: 8-Bit, 256 possible colors, color-cycling for animation effects.
Online SuperTalk reference within scripting mode
Price: less than $200 Availability: 2nd QTR 89
Who knows when this product will become available, or if it will catch on
like SuperPaint. But even SuperPaint let you save your files in MacPaint
and PICT format.
I think it's a wonderful challenge for Apple -- incidently, a related
article reported that Apple was not allowing the HyperCard development
team to see SuperCard prototypes. The article also mentioned a second
HyperCard clone, Plus, which cannot make stand-alone stacks.
An interesting note is that both developers would seem more likey to port
their products to MS-DOS machines than Apple would.
I still remember when MacPaint came out, and then SuperPaint and
FullPaint. I still loved the basic feel of MacPaint over every paint
program that was produced afterward, including MacPaint 2.0.wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu (William M. Bumgarner) (12/08/88)
Apple's policy on quite a few software products (MacDraw/Write/Paint) was to release an application that set an example to be built upon. By keeping prices high, and releasing products that set a standard, but not a maximum-functionality-limit, Apple seeds the market for third-party developer's. Remember the fanfare w/the introduction of FullPaint; not very much of FullPaint was original-- it was simply an extension on MacPaint. Apple may be taking a similar stance with Hypercard; release a product that provides a base by which all other in that class are measured. BUT update it slowly to encourage the third party developers. I'm sure Apple could have done a proper job with printing in one of the first set of updates... but that would have destroyed the market for Reports and others. Also, the stacks released with Hypercard (Address, Notes, Clip Art, etc..) are extremely limited. By releasing limited stacks, it gives developer's ideas to build on and _a_lot_ of room to go... look at Organizer+; it's basic idea is found in the stacks that Apple released with Hypercard. ClipArt+ is the same way; The Clip Art stack that was originally released was a great idea that was horribly executed... ClipArt+ takes that idea and executes it in such away that it is very usable. On top of that, it also adds extra functionality. b.bum wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu
Lou@cup.portal.com (William Joseph Marriott) (12/09/88)
What's in it (HyperCard) for Apple? I admire Silicon Beach for their decision to compete with HyperCard. How would you like to be the one to propose competing with a virtually free product? A virtually free product from a company with an imaginative legal department? A virtually free product with a zealous cult following? I can remember what it was like working with the old Macs and the software of the time. Remember the care-free days of three data formats (MacWrite, MacPaint, PICT)? Programs that were less than 150K? You certainly knew what to buy when you walked into a computer store. Today, of course, we have a proliferation of different graphics, text, sound, and even font formats (quick, what popular DTP programs will be confused by NFNTs?) With that has come more power and flexibility, but putting together software packages that cooperate has become as big a hassle as configuring an MS-DOS machine. Part of the reason that the old standards fell away was that the defenders of the standard -- MacPaint, MacDraw, MacWrite -- retired from the battle. Not just the applications, either. System software components haven't kept up with the times. It's a crime that QuickDraw is basically unchanged from what ran on the first Macs. Boot a typical Macintosh and you'll see a testament to the (lack of) real developments in Macintosh system software popping up in a row across the bottom of the screen: Suitcase, QuicKeys, Laser"Quotes", SuperLaserSpool, Tops... all are third-party hacks at system software that SHOULD have grown up to handle fonts better, DAs better, keyboard control better, print spooling better, and transparent file sharing. You might be able to put a SuperDrive in your Mac SE one day, but you'll have to buy a DaynaFile to get the Finder to support foreign volumes. If Apple had taken a meaningful leadership role by implementing a formatted text standard (you still can't cut and paste text with formatting between applications), improved QuickDraw so applications would not have to hack at printer drivers for decent output, etc., life as a Macintosh owner would be much more carefree. So what is in it (HyperCard) for Apple? I think Apple views its software as more of a marketing tool for hardware than an end to itself. Apple, for instance, can say "We have WYSIWIG display, we have multi-tasking, we can read non-Mac disks, we have this exciting new development/information platform etc." without having to be truly pioneering or putting the effort into enhancing these features. HyperCard _is_ a truly pioneering product that is changing people's lives... the same issue of MacWEEK that reported SuperCard also has a story about HyperCard being used in museums. But will Apple want to take HyperCard much farther? If third-parties are willing to bear the expense of enhancing HyperCard, why bother? Consumers always like to have choices, and the existance of HyperCard-compatible options makes the Macintosh a more attractive purchase. Why would Apple want to get into a battle with Silicon Beach? I think they'll _help_ them by maintaining HyperCard as an "entry-level" product and leave the rest of the market open for other developers. They'll maintain it JUST as they did MacWrite and MacPaint, tweaks here and there so it runs with future system software, but letting Microsoft worry about true advances in functionality. The people who are really _need_ to come out with whiz-bang knock-you-flat programs are the folks at Silicon Beach, because they have to compete with Apple's own product, and any other comers. I imagine the day is not far away when we will have several "stack-card-hypertext" products out, a zillion different formats for each, and we will still be posting here about HyperCard STILL not supporting color or large-screen monitors. ________________________________________________________________________ _ Portal: william_joseph_marriott@cup.portal.com _ Bill Marriott Northwestern University: innen@nuacc.bitnet _ GEnie: W.MARRIOTT CI$: 72047,2770 ________________________________________________________________________
chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (12/10/88)
>I admire Silicon Beach for their decision to compete with HyperCard. >How would you like to be the one to propose competing with a virtually >free product? A virtually free product from a company with an >imaginative legal department? A virtually free product with a zealous >cult following? An insane gesture, to be sure. Just about as insane as shipping SuperPaint against MacPaint. We all know what a failure THAT was.... >System software >components haven't kept up with the times. It's a crime that QuickDraw >is basically unchanged from what ran on the first Macs. Huh? When the 128K ROM came out, QuickDraw was speeded up significantly. And that statement completely ignores, for example, color on the Mac2. >Boot a typical Macintosh and you'll see a testament to the (lack of) >real developments in Macintosh system software popping up in a row >across the bottom of the screen: Suitcase, QuicKeys, Laser"Quotes", >SuperLaserSpool, Tops... all are third-party hacks at system software >that SHOULD have grown up to handle fonts better, DAs better, keyboard >control better, print spooling better, and transparent file sharing. I disagree strongly with this. A couple of reasons why it's dead wrong. 1) Apple doesn't have a monopoly on programming talent. Other folks get great ideas, too. This doesn't mean Apple shouldn't buy really good third party stuff and integrate it in. Quickeys is arguably lightyears ahead of Macromaker. At the same time, though, QK takes a lot more memory, would cost Apple more (royalties, documentation costs, etc, etc) and add to the cost of the Macintosh you buy. 2) which leads to my next point. Not everyone needs this stuff. Yes, I'd like Tops. Not enough to pay for it. Not enough, frankly, to have it suck up more of my memory for it to be there when I want it. I don't want it often enough. Quickeys, on the other hand, I can't live without. Apple loses on both sides of the argument here, which isn't fair. If they *do* go ahead and put in all these neat toys you want, they get yelled at for stomping all over the third-party market (remember the screams in the Good Old Days about MacWrite and MacPaint?). If they purchase a given third party product, all the other ones will scream and yell in outrage -- besides, do you want them to decide which one is better for you? If they chose Tempo over Quickeys, and by bundling it caused QK to go off the market, I'd be pissed. And if they chose QK instead of Tempo, the Tempo folks would feel the same way. Finally, if they don't do anything, they get yelled at for not doing anything. That's not fair to Apple. (Besides, MacroMaker is definitely not nothing. It's not QuicKeys to be sure. But it's a reaction that macro facilities are *good* -- and if MM isn't powerful enough, you ought to be willing to shell out for QK or Tempo). Look at the bottom line on a sample product. Apple decides to buy the rights to QuicKeys from CE software. QK sells list for about $100. CE makes a royalty deal with Apple at, say $10/Mac. Apple gets the rights to ship it with every mac sold. No big deal. Except that QK comes with a manual as thick as the rest of the Mac manuals shipped with the system. That's an expense. And Apple can't sell it without it's own markup. Say we're at $25 now. It goes in the box, to the distributor and the retailer. Each has a markup. So that $10 royalty ends up adding $50-$60 to the cost of each and every macintosh, whether the person wants (or needs) it or not. That's why third party products exist -- to supply useful, but not essential products. QK and Suitcase and Tops and spoolers and stuff are really neat, useful tools -- to the people who need them. But that need isn't *close* to universal, and if Apple DID start a policy of adopting and bundling these products, people would start screaming at it for stifling innovation. Remember the howls from Owl when Hypercard shipped? >So what is in it (HyperCard) for Apple? I think Apple views its >software as more of a marketing tool for hardware than an end to >itself. Speaking from my experience working for varied computer manufacturers, software is rarely overly profitable. It sells iron. Good software sells lots of iron (as in Mac's and Sun's). Bad software sells very little iron (as in a previous employer I won't embarrass). So this view is probably pretty true -- but also not unusual in the computer industry. >HyperCard _is_ a truly pioneering product that is changing people's >lives... the same issue of MacWEEK that reported SuperCard also has a >story about HyperCard being used in museums. But will Apple want to >take HyperCard much farther? If third-parties are willing to bear the >expense of enhancing HyperCard, why bother? Why bother, indeed? To keep Bill Atkinson and Dan happy, which are definitely not reasons to be laughed at. And to make sure the market they're fostering grows to self-sufficiency. Dropping it too early may kill it. And there's little danger in taking it too far -- It'll spur development further and faster. Remember macpaint -- and superpaint, and fullpaint, and Adobe Illustrator and Freehand and Pixel Paint. >Why would Apple want to get into a battle with Silicon >Beach? I think they'll _help_ them by maintaining HyperCard as an >"entry-level" product and leave the rest of the market open for other >developers. The big difference here is Bill Atkinson. He's got more control of Hypercard and he's not going to let it sit until he's done with it what he wants. Hypercard 2.0 sounds fascinating. I expect Hypercard to continue to get better as long as Atkinson wants it to -- and with any luck, the rest of the market will try to keep up. Which menas we, the user, will win big. Chuq Von Rospach Editor/Publisher, OtherRealms chuq@sun.COM When you're up to your *ss in alligators, it's hard to remember your initial objective was to drain the swamp.
englandr@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Scott Englander) (12/10/88)
I'm not terribly optimistic; I've been waiting about 3 years for an
upgrade to SuperPaint. It was supposed to be here this summer.
--
- Scottdan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) (12/11/88)
In article <12351@cup.portal.com> Lou@cup.portal.com (William Joseph Marriott) writes: >I can remember what it was like working with the old Macs and the >software of the time. Remember the care-free days of three data >formats (MacWrite, MacPaint, PICT)? Programs that were less than 150K? Yes, those were great days. I would like programs to be smaller. But would you be willing to not have a HyperCard, not have Excel? not have Word 4.0? >Boot a typical Macintosh and you'll see a testament to the (lack of) >real developments in Macintosh system software popping up in a row >across the bottom of the screen: Suitcase, QuicKeys, Laser"Quotes", >SuperLaserSpool, Tops... all are third-party hacks at system software Agreed. Apple really should fix more of these problems, because many of these components and INITs are constantly breaking with different system software revs... >HyperCard _is_ a truly pioneering product that is changing people's >lives... the same issue of MacWEEK that reported SuperCard also has a >story about HyperCard being used in museums. But will Apple want to >take HyperCard much farther? If third-parties are willing to bear the >expense of enhancing HyperCard, why bother? This is an interesting point. Apple wants to sell computers, and Apple wants to see interesting software around that will help sell the computers. Officially Apple likes to think it is a hardware company, not a software company. However, I work in software at Apple where there are hundreds of people developing software to help sell our machines. Don't let anybody kid you: Apple is a software company as well, regardless of what Apple says. Now Apple also wants to keep third parties happy. That's why they unbundled MacWrite and MacPaint. There is a group of us at Apple (known as the HyperCard engineers) that agree with your critique of Apple creating standards for passing formatting information around. We like to think that HyperCard stacks are a great format that ALL Mac owners have and can use. We hope that HyperCard will NEVER BE UNBUNDLED, because then the standard will go away, and you will have lots of different formats around... And HyperCard's already rich environment (text, sound, and bitmapped graphics) will be improved over time. The obvious improvements and things wanted by many of the readers of this net are: object graphics, large card support, color, styled text, etc. Now just so everyone will hear my manifesto once more... WE WANT TO MAKE HYPERCARD GREAT. We want it to be robust and bug free. We want all of these great features just like everybody else. And WE ARE WORKING ON MANY GREAT NEW FEATURES. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to comment on the exact nature of these new features, but we are doing mainline feature enhacements that are what many many people have asked for. We are very confident that everyone will be very pleased with these new features. We have a list over 70 pages long of features people want. We will do those that we can and release a new version. We'll then do more and release yet another version. (We figure you do not want to wait years for just one new version...) We welcome competition but we are going to continue to improve HyperCard dramatically and in new ways. Most people on the net think we can just add color and then everything works great. But they fail to think of the implications: what if I create a color stack and then pass it to a friend? Many colors would end up being black or white, with dramatic problems with visual interpretation. Or what if cards could be big? How would the majority with small screens work with a small card? There are solutions to these problems, but the features that people ask for have many ramifications that are not usually entertained. Remember, 95% of the HyperCard users of the world have a 1 MB machine, (Mac Plus or Mac SE) with a 20 MB hard disk. No color. No big screens. No 68020. No extra RAM. No nothing. HyperCard still has to work for them, because they are The Rest of Us. Dan Allen Apple Computer End of Soapbox
clive@drutx.ATT.COM (Clive Steward) (12/13/88)
Very good answer, Dan, and fair minded too. Best thing you've said yet. There's surely ample room for creativity from everyone. And evidence that the company of other thinkers is pretty effective, if for no other reason that then the company bean counters see why they should provide funds, even after a cash cow has been birthed. Best fortune to you, Dan. Clive Steward