mjm@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Michael McClennen) (10/05/89)
In article <35236@apple.Apple.COM> dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) writes: > >* Use the latest version of HyperCard, which is currently 1.2.2 for most > of the older Macs and 1.2.5 for the Portable and IIci. If you are > using 1.2.2 on a Plus, SE, SE/30, II, or IIcx, you do not need > to upgrade to 1.2.5 unless you have huge stacks (8 MB or larger in > size and more than 8000 cards). Remember that 1.2.5 requires System > 6.0.4 as well. We have a stack that will total approximately 30 megabytes, for about 12,000 cards. Do we really want to run it using HyperCard v.1.2.5? We plan to distribute it commercially, and would not wish to make all of our users switch to system 6.0.4 willy-nilly... - Does HyperCard 1.2.5 simply run large stacks more efficiently than 1.2.2, or are there substantial changes in functionality? - Do the two versions use the same file format, so that we could develop using 1.2.5 and distribute for use with 1.2.2? In addition, any comments from people with experience developing multi-megabyte stacks would be most welcome! Michael McClennen (mjm@dartmouth.edu) Dartmouth College Academic Computing
dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) (10/10/89)
In article <15945@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> mjm@dartmouth.edu (Michael McClennen) writes: >- Does HyperCard 1.2.5 simply run large stacks more efficiently than 1.2.2, or > are there substantial changes in functionality? > >- Do the two versions use the same file format, so that we could develop using > 1.2.5 and distribute for use with 1.2.2? HC 1.2.2 verses HC 1.2.5: there are no substantial changes in functionality, but there are two very small (but important) bug fixes that cause large stacks to usually be corrupted. One of the bugs would corrupt a stack when it had more than 8000 cards, while the other one allows stacks to grow to their theoretical maximum of 512 MB. The file format of HC 1.2.2 and HC 1.2.5 is identical. Dan Allen HyperCard Team Apple Computer
dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) (10/10/89)
In article <35502@apple.Apple.COM> dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) writes: >In article <15945@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> mjm@dartmouth.edu (Michael McClennen) writes: >>- Does HyperCard 1.2.5 simply run large stacks more efficiently than 1.2.2, or >> are there substantial changes in functionality? >> >>- Do the two versions use the same file format, so that we could develop using >> 1.2.5 and distribute for use with 1.2.2? > >HC 1.2.2 verses HC 1.2.5: there are no substantial changes in >functionality, but there are two very small (but important) bug fixes >that cause large stacks to usually be corrupted. One of the bugs would >corrupt a stack when it had more than 8000 cards, while the other one >allows stacks to grow to their theoretical maximum of 512 MB. > >The file format of HC 1.2.2 and HC 1.2.5 is identical. > >Dan Allen >HyperCard Team >Apple Computer > P.S. - Version 1.2.5 fixes the two bugs that are in 1.2.2. Sorry if that was not clear from the original posting. DA
american@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Jeff Iverson) (10/10/89)
dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) writes: >In article <15945@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> mjm@dartmouth.edu (Michael McClennen) writes: >>- Does HyperCard 1.2.5 simply run large stacks more efficiently than 1.2.2, or >> are there substantial changes in functionality? >> >>- Do the two versions use the same file format, so that we could develop using >> 1.2.5 and distribute for use with 1.2.2? > >HC 1.2.2 verses HC 1.2.5: there are no substantial changes in >functionality, but there are two very small (but important) bug fixes >that cause large stacks to usually be corrupted. One of the bugs would >corrupt a stack when it had more than 8000 cards, while the other one >allows stacks to grow to their theoretical maximum of 512 MB. > >The file format of HC 1.2.2 and HC 1.2.5 is identical. > >Dan Allen >HyperCard Team >Apple Computer According to the HyperCard product data sheet that comes with Apple Developer Services binder the maximum stack size is touted as 4096 megabytes. What is this 512 megabyte 'theoretical' maximum? /s ooops UUCP: {amdahl!bungia, uunet!rosevax, chinet, killer}!orbit!pnet51!american ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!american@nosc.mil INET: american@pnet51.cts.com GEnie: APOSTASY AppleLink: ALL.AMERICAN U. S. Mail: All-American Software Development Corp. 5612 International Parkway Minneapolis MN 55428 Jeff Iverson
dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) (10/10/89)
In article <1239@orbit.UUCP> american@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Jeff Iverson) writes: >According to the HyperCard product data sheet that comes with Apple Developer >Services binder the maximum stack size is touted as 4096 megabytes. > >What is this 512 megabyte 'theoretical' maximum? The noted 4096 megabytes listed in some literature is incorrect. A stack can "theoretically" be up to 512 MB in size, although I do not know if any stacks that large have ever been created. I believe the largest one we have created for testing HyperCard is only 200 MB in size, with about 750,000 cards. Note that the 512 MB maximum size corresponds roughly with the space available on a CD-ROM. In practice, however, such large stacks are hard to backup and work with. As stated before, anyone working with very large stacks should consider upgrading to HyperCard 1.2.5 (and the requiste System 6.0.4) to take advantage of a few bug fixes which only affect very large stacks. Stacks less than 8000 cards and 8 MB in size are considered, for the purposes of this discussion, as small stacks. Dan Allen HyperCard Team Apple Computer
mjm@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Michael McClennen) (10/12/89)
In article <35502@apple.Apple.COM> dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) writes: >HC 1.2.2 verses HC 1.2.5: there are no substantial changes in >functionality, but there are two very small (but important) bug fixes >that cause large stacks to usually be corrupted. One of the bugs would >corrupt a stack when it had more than 8000 cards, while the other one >allows stacks to grow to their theoretical maximum of 512 MB. > >The file format of HC 1.2.2 and HC 1.2.5 is identical. Thank you!!! I'm glad we didn't have to find that out the hard way... Our stack is not yet 8,000 cards but will be when all of the data is in. I have just one followup question: To spare us the nuisance of having to convert all of our machines to running 6.0.4, can we do most of the development under 1.2.2 still? In other words, when does the corruption occur: If it is only a problem when adding cards then we can make sure to do all card adding under HyperCard 1.2.5 and other sorts of development (changing scripts, etc.) under 1.2.2. Or would this still be opening ourselves up for trouble? Michael McClennen (mjm@dartmouth.edu) Dartmouth College Academic Computing
dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) (10/12/89)
In article <16046@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> mjm@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Michael McClennen) writes: >just one followup question: To spare us the nuisance of having to convert all >of our machines to running 6.0.4, can we do most of the development under 1.2.2 >still? In other words, when does the corruption occur: If it is only a >problem when adding cards then we can make sure to do all card adding under >HyperCard 1.2.5 and other sorts of development (changing scripts, etc.) under >1.2.2. Or would this still be opening ourselves up for trouble? Any use of the stack could cause corruption, unless it was read-only (as in locked with the Finder's lock, on a protected/locked AppleShare volume, or on a CD-ROM). Dan Allen Apple Computer
kenk@tellab5.TELLABS.COM (Ken Konecki) (10/12/89)
In article <35502@apple.Apple.COM> dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) writes: | HC 1.2.2 verses HC 1.2.5: there are no substantial changes in | functionality, but there are two very small (but important) bug fixes | that cause large stacks to usually be corrupted. One of the bugs would | corrupt a stack when it had more than 8000 cards, while the other one | allows stacks to grow to their theoretical maximum of 512 MB. Since I am planning to embark on a large stack project (potentially greater than 8000 cards), it would probably be nice to have the bug fixed version. How do I get it? Thanks, -Ken K -- Ken Konecki "Eat well, stay fit, and die anyway" e-mail:kenk@tellab5.UUCP -or- ...!uunet!tellab5!kenk U.S. Mail: 1271 Portchester Circle, Carol Stream, IL 60188
mjm@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Michael McClennen) (10/12/89)
A plea to Apple: could you please put out a version of Hypercard which fixes the corrupting-over-8000-card-stacks bug but does not require system 6.0.4? Thank you. Michael McClennen (mjm@dartmouth.edu) Dartmouth College Academic Computing
stadler@Apple.COM (Andy Stadler) (10/13/89)
In article <16074@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> mjm@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Michael McClennen) writes: > >A plea to Apple: could you please put out a version of Hypercard which fixes >the corrupting-over-8000-card-stacks bug but does not require system 6.0.4? > >Thank you. > >Michael McClennen (mjm@dartmouth.edu) >Dartmouth College Academic Computing I wish it were that easy. However, putting out a release is *quite a bit* more complicated than compiling a disk and sending it to someone. Must go through test cycles, licensing, duplication, packaging, marketing, etc, etc. Now, as to why does 1.2.5 require 6.0.4: The main reason for the 1.2.5 release was for compatibility with the Macintosh Portable and the Macintosh IIci. Both of these machines require 6.0.4. The bug fixes were incidentals. I'm sorry if the combination of requirements isn't working out, but to do a non-6.0.4 release would require a lot more work on the part of engineering and wouldn't you rather see us working hard on 2.0 and other neat new things? --Andy Stadler stadler@apple.com --Not on the HyperCard Team
mjm@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Michael McClennen) (10/13/89)
In article <35588@apple.Apple.COM> stadler@Apple.COM (Andy Stadler) writes: >I wish it were that easy. However, putting out a release is *quite a bit* >more complicated than compiling a disk and sending it to someone. Must go >through test cycles, licensing, duplication, packaging, marketing, etc, etc. > >Now, as to why does 1.2.5 require 6.0.4: The main reason for the 1.2.5 >release was for compatibility with the Macintosh Portable and the Macintosh >IIci. Both of these machines require 6.0.4. The bug fixes were incidentals. I understand why you did it that way, I just wish you hadn't. The situation you have now produced is one where 95% of the machines out there will not be able to run Hypercard stacks over 8,000 cards without risk of corrupting them. This seems to me like a rather serious bug in Hypercard, and one which should have been fixed separately from the new machines upgrade. Michael McClennen (mjm@dartmouth.edu) Dartmouth College Academic Computing
stadler@Apple.COM (Andy Stadler) (10/14/89)
In article <16118@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> mjm@dartmouth.edu (Michael McClennen) writes: > >you have now produced is one where 95% of the machines out there will not be >able to run Hypercard stacks over 8,000 cards without risk of corrupting them. Before now, 100% of machines out there were not able to run stacks over 8000 cards. So it's an improvement! :-) >This seems to me like a rather serious bug in Hypercard, and one which should >have been fixed separately from the new machines upgrade. Seriously, though, I should clarify something. HyperCard 1.2.5 requires the new system disk, and the Macintosh IIci and the Macintosh Portable require the new system disk. But this doesn't mean that HC 1.2.5 will not run on older machines. Granted, they must have their system folder updated, but once you are running 6.0.4 (on a Mac +, or a II, or IIcx, or whatever) you can run HyperCard 1.2.5 on any system. The only catch is that you need a new system disk to run 1.2.5. There is not a machine compatibility issue. --Andy Stadler stadler@apple.com