punia@uvm-cs.UUCP (David T. Punia) (04/19/85)
Burlington, Vermont; The University of Vermont has entered into an agreement with AT&T Information Systems for the purchase of AT&T's model PC 6300 personal computers. Incoming freshmen in the Division of Engineering, Mathematics, and Business Administration will be required to purchase these microcomputers starting in the fall of 1985. Students will be able to purchase their machines outright, or finance the cost over their four years at the University. Maintenance is included in the cost of the machines. Additional machines will be available to faculty in the Division for courseware development. Other university faculty, staff, and students will be able to purchase the PC 6300 at the student price. AT&T was selected as the vendor for the microcomputers after a search by a team of University faculty and computer experts. The search team reviewed various hardware and software configurations required by students in the Division before selecting the AT&T. Ten separate microcomputer vendors were contacted by the search team, and seven chose to submit proposals to the University. For those unfamiliar with the PC 6300, it is an IBM PC compatible, but there are some notable differences. It is built by Olivetti, runs an 8086 processor at 8 MHz, and comes standard with a color graphics controller (640 X 400), clock/calendar with battery backup, IBM style keyboard including a mouse port, 7 IBM compatible slots (data bus MUX'ing is done by the 6300) which can be configured as 16 bit slots by adding edge connectors to the motherboard (two are already installed), parallel and serial ports, dual half-height 360 KB floppies, and a 12 inch green monochrome monitor. A 10 MB half-height hard disk and other optional equipment are available. -- David T. Punia, Dept. of Computer Science & Electrical Engineering, The University of Vermont, Burlington, VT 05405 802-656-3330 USENET --> ....!decvax!dartvax!uvm-gen!punia CSNET ---> punia@uvm
desjardins@h-sc1.UUCP (marie desjardins) (04/22/85)
> > Burlington, Vermont; The University of Vermont has entered into an agreement > with AT&T Information Systems for the purchase of AT&T's model PC 6300 > personal computers. Incoming freshmen in the Division of Engineering, > Mathematics, and Business Administration will be required to purchase > these microcomputers starting in the fall of 1985. Students will be able to > purchase their machines outright, or finance the cost over their four years > at the University. Maintenance is included in the cost of the machines. What if they can't afford it? marie desjardins
ables@mcc-db.UUCP (King Ables) (04/23/85)
>> Burlington, Vermont; The University of Vermont has (paraphrased) >> required incoming freshmen to purchase PCs... > What if they can't afford it? Then they go to school somewhere else. No, I'm not that cruel and heartless, it's just the way the world works, this can be looked upon as just another fee. If this is enough to put you over (divided over 4 years) then you were pretty close to not being able to afford it anyway. I wonder if it's covered by student loans? Maybe a PC scholarship... -King ARPA: ables@mcc UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!mcc-db!ables
wcs@ho95b.UUCP (Bill Stewart) (04/24/85)
> > Burlington, Vermont; .... Incoming freshmen ...will be required to > > purchase [AT&T 6300 PC] starting in the fall of 1985. Students will > > be able to purchase their machines outright, or finance the cost over > > their four years at the University. Maintenance is included in the > > cost of the machines. > What if they can't afford it? > marie desjardins Requiring freshmen in technical fields to purchase PCs of one sort or another is becoming increasingly common, and it's not a bad thing. Back in the dark ages, when I was a freshman, a respectable hunk of my tuition went towards 1/Nth of the IBM 370, 1/nth of a card punch, etc. This makes the cost and value a little more explicit, but the student probably pays an amortized $5-700/year, and gets to keep the beast when he/she leaves. Besides, You can upgrade a 6300 to 640K by adding 256K memory chips to the motherboard and setting the switches right! If you buy offbrand chips, this will cost about $100. This is not on the documentation, but it's been floating around the grapevine for a few months. I have no idea how it affects warranty (?it shouldn't?), but it produces less heat load and uses fewer slots than buying the add-on boards that use 64K chips. Bill Stewart DISCLAIMER! Of course I'm speaking on my own, and this in no way represents policy of my company, management, or anybody who's anybody.
stein@druny.UUCP (SteinDW) (04/24/85)
>>> Burlington, Vermont; The University of Vermont has (paraphrased) >>> required incoming freshmen to purchase PCs... >> What if they can't afford it? >Then they go to school somewhere else. >No, I'm not that cruel and heartless, it's just the way the world >works, this can be looked upon as just another fee. If this is >enough to put you over (divided over 4 years) then you were pretty >close to not being able to afford it anyway. Since most state supported schools (that I know of) offer lower tuition rates to in-state students I think the cost of the PC could be quite significant. And if I got a loan for my tuition and room and board will the loan institution include the cost of the PC? Seems to me that the PC cost could be an important issue in deciding between to otherwise equally inviting schools. Don Stein druny!stein
br@duke.UUCP (Balu Raman) (04/25/85)
In article <387@ho95b.UUCP> wcs@ho95b.UUCP (Bill Stewart) writes: >> > Burlington, Vermont; .... Incoming freshmen ...will be required to >> > purchase [AT&T 6300 PC] starting in the fall of 1985. Students will >> > be able to purchase their machines outright, or finance the cost over >> > their four years at the University. Maintenance is included in the >> > cost of the machines. >> What if they can't afford it? >> marie desjardins > >Requiring freshmen in technical fields to purchase PCs of one sort or >another is becoming increasingly common, and it's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing if you are asked to purchase or have a PC of any kind; they seem to be forcing the students to buy one brand. Its like forcing me to buy only a Honda Civic or whatever because UVM cannot provide parking space for other cars. When one spends that kind of money one should be free to purchase any hardware within limits. Or is it true, students have no rights ? Balu Raman CCP, Duke University,NC
wjhe@hlexa.UUCP (Bill Hery) (04/25/85)
> >> Burlington, Vermont; The University of Vermont has (paraphrased) > >> required incoming freshmen to purchase PCs... > > > What if they can't afford it? > Anyone who can afford the $8K or so per year for room, board and tuition for out of staters should be able to afford to pay for a 6300 over four years.
john@x.UUCP (John Woods) (04/25/85)
> > > Burlington, Vermont; .... Incoming freshmen ...will be required to > > > purchase [AT&T 6300 PC] starting in the fall of 1985. Students will > > Requiring freshmen in technical fields to purchase PCs of one sort or > another is becoming increasingly common, and it's not a bad thing. Requiring freshmen to purchase PCs of one particular sort is becoming increasingly common, and it is the most heinous thing to come around in a few years. The tuition at my Alma Mommy (MIT) is way over $10K now (and financial aid is getting scarcer by the minute), and now some bozo comes along and suggests that each student buy some inadequate UBM PC for another $NK (oh, great, you get to pay $N/4 K per year -- big help if you are barely making it on scholarships). Fortunately, MIT has not yet required this, and there is (last I heard) no effort to do so *. Making PCs of some flavor available for cheap purchase is fine; even better is for the school to also HAVE PCs available so that students who can't afford them can get them. But telling students, "Now that you're here, shell out another large chunk of money to this random company that we're really greasy with", no, that is unacceptable. ---------------- * However, there was talk of making the computers that EECS students build in the Computer Architectures course (6.004 now, a course on the required list) available for inexpensive purchase, and those who don't purchase them can use them for their N remaining years. I don't know how this came out, though. Note that this plan completely lacks coercion! -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA You can't spell "vile" without "vi".
davec@dciem.UUCP (Dave Cote) (04/25/85)
If a student is considering the University of Vermont for college, he/she is probably not worried about the cost of a pc. The University of Vermont (UVM) is one of the most expensive state run institutions for an in-state or out-of-state student to attend. I could suggest schoolds with equivalent if not if not better programs in engineering and business that are much cheaper.
wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (04/25/85)
>>> > Burlington, Vermont; .... Incoming freshmen ...will be required to >>> > purchase [AT&T 6300 PC] starting in the fall of 1985. Students will >>> What if they can't afford it? >>> marie desjardins >> >It's not a bad thing if you are asked to purchase or have a PC of any kind; >they seem to be forcing the students to buy one brand. Its like forcing me to >buy only a Honda Civic or whatever because UVM cannot provide parking space >for other cars. When one spends that kind of money one should be free to >purchase any hardware within limits. Or is it true, students have no rights ? > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Balu Raman CCP, Duke University,NC | [I thought everybody already knew this! :-] I think there are a couple issues in addition to those expressed above: 1) Anybody going to a technical/engineering school these days or in the near future will already have either spent a lot of time with computers or bought their own computer. While there is something to be said in favor of forcing an early familiarity with having to move between machines and learning many different kinds of OS's and environments, I fear that a school adopting this approach will have to waste much time forcing each (or at least most) student to UNLEARN their already-acquired computer skills to use the school-standard system. Also, for those who already have their own machines, having to buy another can be a great imposition. Will the school help them dispose of their previous systems, or accept their hardware in trade for tuition? 2) The obvious reason for standardizing is to allow distribution of software, lessons on diskettes, communications, etc. Can't this be achieved by FUNCTIONAL specifications instead of mandating specific hardware brands? While quantity buying can cut prices on the hardware, this also locks the community into total dependence on a specific vendor. Competition can never help you when the inevitable future price cuts occur. Again, using functional specs instead of explicit hardware lists can help in this situation. 3) Those out there concerned about software theft and unauthorized duplication/copying should look at this sort of thing with terror in their hearts. I can't think of a situation more likely to encourage such practices. 4) Not too far down the line, the school and alumni will have an enormous stock of now-obsolete systems and software. Since so much of the school's operation and practices will by then depend on living in a totally-automated, PC-dominated environment, having to make periodic mass changes to keep up with the improvements in the computer industry (which a school will HAVE to do to stay competitive) will cost so much and cause such disruption that every n years the school will, in effect, disintegrate into chaos for some months while everyone flails about getting changed over. (I forsee some fun garage sales, though...) Doomsaying as ever, Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA
ems@amdahl.UUCP (ems) (04/26/85)
> > >> Burlington, Vermont; The University of Vermont has (paraphrased) > > >> required incoming freshmen to purchase PCs... > > > > > What if they can't afford it? > > > Anyone who can afford the $8K or so per year for room, board and tuition for > out of staters should be able to afford to pay for a 6300 over four years. As someone who counted pennies to put myself through a state school I feel qualified by experience to state that the above is bunk. For some students, yes, the extra cost will be OK. For others it will be the difference between going to that school or not. For some who cannot travel it can be going vs. not going at all. The logical extention of this is that if I can afford a condo, then I can afford a house; if I can afford a Honda, I can afford a Mercedes ... One small thing, though. What about decreasing marginal returns? The first dollar is *ALOT* easier to get than the last. -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems Tilapia Zilli is the way and the light. This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything.
hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) (04/26/85)
I would post this anonimously if possible so I wouldn't give away my age, but when I was a freshman engineering student at Ohio University I had to pay around 35 or 40 dollars for a log-log duplex decitrig slide rule. The tuition was $ 65 per semester. I also had to buy a drafting set which cost $ 100.- I don't know what tuition is at Vermont, but requiring students to buy the tools they need for their education is nothing new.
long@oliveb.UUCP (A Panther Modern) (04/27/85)
br@duke.UUCP (Balu Raman) writes: | In article <387@ho95b.UUCP> wcs@ho95b.UUCP (Bill Stewart) writes: | >> > Burlington, Vermont; .... Incoming freshmen ...will be required to | >> > purchase [AT&T 6300 PC] starting in the fall of 1985. Students will | >> > be able to purchase their machines outright, or finance the cost over | >> > their four years at the University. Maintenance is included in the | >> > cost of the machines. | >> What if they can't afford it? | >> marie desjardins | > | >Requiring freshmen in technical fields to purchase PCs of one sort or | >another is becoming increasingly common, and it's not a bad thing. | | It's not a bad thing if you are asked to purchase or have a PC of any kind; they | seem to be forcing the students to buy one brand. Its like forcing me to buy | only a Honda Civic or whatever because UVM cannot provide parking space for | other cars. When one spends that kind of money one should be free to purchase | any hardware within limits. Or is it true, students have no rights ? | | Balu Raman CCP, Duke University,NC What about compatibility? I agree that perhaps they should be allowed to buy any 6300 PC-compatible computer, but having non-compatible machines would largely negate the purpose of requiring PCs. Dave Long -- gnoL evaD Beware of {msoft,allegra,gsgvax,fortune,hplabs,idi,ios, Black ICE nwuxd,ihnp4,tolrnt,tty3b,vlsvax1,zehntel}!oliveb!long
mathnews@watdcsu.UUCP (mathNEWS) (04/28/85)
In article <10207@brl-tgr.ARPA> wmartin@brl-bmd.UUCP writes: >>>> > Burlington, Vermont; .... Incoming freshmen ...will be required to >>>> > purchase [AT&T 6300 PC] starting in the fall of 1985. Students will >>> >I think there are a couple issues in addition to those expressed above: > >1) Anybody going to a technical/engineering school these days or in the >near future will already have either spent a lot of time with computers >or bought their own computer. While there is something to be said in >favor of forcing an early familiarity with having to move between machines >and learning many different kinds of OS's and environments, I fear that >a school adopting this approach will have to waste much time forcing >each (or at least most) student to UNLEARN their already-acquired >computer skills to use the school-standard system. That is one nice thing about Waterloo--no standard system is imposed on students. Many have their own micros (or even archaic minis--my next-door neighbour in residence owned a PDP-8), so owning another one would be more than a minor inconvenience, even if the cost was divided over 4, 5 or 6 years (depending on regular/co-op/extra year combinations of study programs). As you mentioned, there is something to be said in favour (no apologies for Canadian/Brit spellings) of moving between machines and learning many kinds of environments. This is one aspect of Waterloo that I enjoy. We do not ``unlearn'' our ``mother OS;'' rather, we complement it with new ones. Not only does it make us more flexible: we get a more rounded view of computing systems, techniques for programming, and more exposure to strengths and weaknesses which should be incorporated, extended, reworked and avoided in future developments in which we may be involved. The co-op program reinforces and necessitates this variety of experience. >2) The obvious reason for standardizing is to allow distribution >of software, lessons on diskettes, communications, etc. Can't this >be achieved by FUNCTIONAL specifications instead of mandating >specific hardware brands? While quantity buying can cut prices on the >hardware, this also locks the community into total dependence on >a specific vendor. Yes, this is one reason for standardising, and functional specs are better than an imposed manufacturer. Waterloo has solved the problem (somewhat, anyway) by setting up microcomputer labs (some SuperPET (remember those?), some IBM PC, some DEC Rainbow, some of its own black boxes called microWATs) on a local network, with a shared hard disk or file system of some sort. Lessons, assignment resources, data files, and so on are kept in a directory specifically for the course using them. Deals can be arranged (if the software vendor/ manufacturer is reasonable) to have a copy of a package such as Wordstar or Lotus on the hard disk in a network environment. The Ontario Ministry of Education is negotiating special licenses with many software developers for using packages in a shared resource/networked environment in schools. Since each student would not own a copy of the piece of software under this scheme, it would be easy to go to a new software package if the current one became inadequate, or the vendor became too troublesome to bother with. > >3) Those out there concerned about software theft and unauthorized >duplication/copying should look at this sort of thing with terror >in their hearts. I can't think of a situation more likely to >encourage such practices. There is nothing more satisfying to a first-year student than breaking someone's copy-protection scheme, except breaking in to the school's mark-processing mainframe. Some micro networks at Waterloo do not have disk drives so copies of programs cannot be made from these systems. Some software currently available checks that the copy being loaded is a legitimate copy. If, in a networked micro environment, a program is copied from the hard disk to a floppy and an attempt is made to load this copy, the loader should check some characteristic of the device or medium it is being loaded from to see if it is an authentic copy. Of course, this does not prevent more devious/educated students from entering a debugger, reading the file and patching the code to make their floppy version work. (At Waterloo this might not be a problem. Campus security, during the Christmas break, raided the two University-run residences and removed all traffic and commercial signs that a student would not normally own. Perhaps next year they'll add illegal software to their search list... :-() > >4) Not too far down the line, the school and alumni will have an >enormous stock of now-obsolete systems and software. Since so much >of the school's operation and practices will by then depend on >living in a totally-automated, PC-dominated environment, having to >make periodic mass changes to keep up with the improvements in >the computer industry (which a school will HAVE to do to stay >competitive) will cost so much and cause such disruption that >every n years the school will, in effect, disintegrate into >chaos for some months while everyone flails about getting changed over. Nice thing about this place. Nothing stays exactly the same. One term we'll be on the Honeywell DPS8/49 (we've modified the operating system and utilities to make it actually somewhat useful as a teaching machine), the next we'll use the Honeywell, IBM's and Student CMS, and (of course) VAXen with Unix. The micros are used for first-year and two second-year courses. If a system becomes obsolete or useless, it's replaced or the course is moved to another machine. The only problem is getting enough VAXen to serve 2000 students in the Faculty of Mathematics, while leaving one for the rogue players. >(I forsee some fun garage sales, though...) Wanna buy a used 4341? :-) There are, then, alternatives to forcing students to buy a particular computer. A student will have enough imposed on him/her while studying at university. There is no need to force a $6-8K computer on them as well when there are viable alternatives that, in the long run, appear to benefit everyone concerned, not just the university. regards, dwarf (W. Jim Jordan) (yes, I actually study here) -- "Damn the integrals, full speed ahead!" mathNEWS--the math student newspaper at the University of Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|ihnp4|decvax}!watmath!watdcsu!mathnews UUCP mathnews%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet CSNET mathnews@watdcsu NETNORTH
lspirkov@udenva.UUCP (Goldilocks) (04/28/85)
In article <> wjhe@hlexa.UUCP (Bill Hery) writes: >> >> Burlington, Vermont; The University of Vermont has (paraphrased) >> >> required incoming freshmen to purchase PCs... >> >> > What if they can't afford it? >> >Anyone who can afford the $8K or so per year for room, board and tuition for >out of staters should be able to afford to pay for a 6300 over four years. wrong. some of us do get financial aid and i don't think that the cose of a PC is included in it. -- Goldi email: udenva!lspirkov
dan@brunix.UUCP (David Niguidula) (04/29/85)
Summary: Expires: Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Keywords: We've been arguing for a while here at Brown about having students buy any type of machine. It's upsetting that many people think "Oh, if they can afford a school with a five-figure tuition, they can afford to buy a computer." THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. While it is true that there are a number of rich folks wandering around the Ivies and similarly priced schools, they constitute a minority of the student bodies. Many students rely on large loans (not necessarily from the GSL program), grants, and their own earnings (summer and school year) to help pay for a school that they and their parents CANNOT really afford. Every $100 added to the bill usually means another 20-25 hours of work, or an increase in the debt incurred at graduation. The price of a personal computer -- even if it is spread over four years -- may push the total college bill over the edge. Most people find college expensive, no matter where they attend. Just because the state schools are, by and large, less expensive that private institutions, does not mean that many students have difficulty financing their education. A personal computer is not a bad investment, and organizations such as the Apple Consortium (where member schools get a large discount on Macintoshes and other Apple products) should encourage students to buy machines. However, schools can set up public terminal/pc centers that would cost a lot less per student -- students can still use the machines, and can afford to attend the school that has them.
cdshaw@watmum.UUCP (Chris Shaw) (04/29/85)
I'd like to make a point which is rather obvious, but no one has mentioned
yet.
If the goal of a school is to get more (micro)computing power for its students,
it can do it two ways.
1) Shell out its own hard bucks and buy a system (say a micro network,
or a Unix box, etc). This system will cost the University money
Right Now, and will be obsolete in 4 years, at least. The U. has to
pay for maintenence for this system, as well as paying for operators,
software support, an air-conditioned room, and all that other trash.
This money could be spent elsewhere for computers for other uses,
such as research, or for things like a jaccuzzi in every
Prof's office :-)))).
2) Make the student shell out his own hard bucks and buy a system (say a
micro). This system will cost the student money Right Now, and will be
obsolete in 4 years, at least. The student has to pay for maintenence
for this system, software support, and all that other trash.
This money could be spent elsewhere for an education at a better
institution, or for more important things, like beer, eh?
The parallels in the text were intentional.
Any university clearly wins financially if it goes the students-must-buy-brand-x
route. A corporation selling computers knows this, probably, and also knows that
it will sell many more machines to incoming students than it will sell to the
University at one shot. The company is basically "set for life", if it is
always seen to be meeting the current needs of the students, since there is
guaranteed sales in the size of the technical-student body every year.
The student is clearly the financial loser in a deal like this. He is also
a loser educationally, since the exposure he gets to computer systems could
easily be limited to only one system. I have seen graduates of one-system-only
computer education, and they have a hard time transporting themselves to a
new paradigm when they get into the "real" world.
The question really is whether there is money available at all to
get the equipment necessary. If there isn't, the personal-equipment route
may be followed simply as a last resort, never mind social justice.
Something can be said for restricting oneself to one system, since one only
needs to do the learn-the-system work once. Learning 5 or 6 systems, with
5 or 6 editors and 5 or 6 Pascal compilers, and so on, is a lot of work. Some
would say that this is needless work.
One would hope, however, that in the process of learning the sixth editor, the
experience gained in learning previous editors makes the learning very easy.
The goal might be said to be "learning how to learn", given a multitude of
systems. This, in my book, is the major goal of education in general.
Chris Shaw, student at...
University of Waterloowjhe@hlexa.UUCP (Bill Hery) (05/01/85)
> > > >> Burlington, Vermont; The University of Vermont has (paraphrased) > > > >> required incoming freshmen to purchase PCs... > > > > > > > What if they can't afford it? > > > > > Anyone who can afford the $8K or so per year for room, board and tuition for > > out of staters should be able to afford to pay for a 6300 over four years. > > The logical extention of this is that if I can afford a condo, > then I can afford a house; if I can afford a Honda, I can afford > a Mercedes ... > No, it's more like 'if I can afford a Honda, I can afford a Honda with air conditioning' This certainly isn't always true, but if you can't afford the Honda with AC and you live in Houston, maybe you should consider a Nissan with AC instead of a Honda without. The important question here is not so much the cost of the computer, but how important it is to the education you're getting--that's a whole different debate. And if, perchance, you can get me a new Mercedes for the same % increase in price over a Honda as UVM + PC6300 over UVM, I'm ready to buy!!!
gnome@olivee.UUCP (Gary Traveis) (05/02/85)
> >> > Burlington, Vermont; .... Incoming freshmen ...will be required to > >> > purchase [AT&T 6300 PC] starting in the fall of 1985. Students will > >> What if they can't afford it? > >> marie desjardins > > > >Requiring freshmen in technical fields to purchase PCs of one sort or > >another is becoming increasingly common, and it's not a bad thing. > It's not a bad thing if you are asked to purchase or have a PC of any kind; they > seem to be forcing the students to buy one brand. Its like forcing me to buy >... Actually, it makes getting asignments out a lot easier. A good example is when a college has a total of 6 terminals hooked up to a super-mini and everyone has to use it at approximately the same time. Massive bog. So, your instructor says "Yes, you can do assignments somewhere else, as long as you do it in Pascal, like everyone else." It's at that point that you find out how many flavors of Pascal there are. Not only that, but you can trade off tools and other good things if you are all running the same machines. If you have to standardize on a PC-like machine, you might as well lock in on a machine with 640x400 resolution and a display controller that will run color simply by plugging a color monitor in!