gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (07/08/90)
----------------------------- In article <33521@ut-emx.UUCP>, awessels@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes... >In article <33519@ut-emx.UUCP> eggplant@walt.cc.utexas.edu (johan van Zanten) writes: > >> Mr Forbes writes: >>"If development costs for Hypercard are driving up the costs of making a Mac, >>then I think we can safely ax this project. Most users could live without >>Hypercard and be richer as a result." > >> I strongly disagree. One of the foundations Apple built its current >>success upon was the Educational market. Currently, Apple is working very hard >>to produce a low cost, color Macintosh as soon as possible (firing a high exec) >But, the point Mr. Forbes was making was that if the cost of HyperCard >development is adding to the cost of the Mac, and in so doing reducing the >chances that educational institutions can buy them, that HyperCard should be >dumped. There are already alternative HyperCard-like environments (as there >were before HyperCard - at least as far as the educational market is concerned). > >>because of the educational demand. They have (reportedly) lost $500 million >>in sales to IBM and IBM-compatibles, and it hurts. > >Uh, I question those figures. If Apple isn't really competing in a market, >how could it lose money there. Apple doesn't price its computers for the >educational market, and even if it di monochome doesn't cut it there >anymore. "Apple doesn't price its computers for the educational market"? Maybe, if you buy retail. But at many universities and community colleges you can get Macs for less than 50% of retail. A Plus for <$700, for instance. > >> However, Macs will not be able to "infiltrate" the educational world if >>they do not have some sort of easy-to-learn programming environment, where >>teachers and students just beginning to use computers, can write sometimes- >>lenghty and interesting programs, tailored to their students' needs. > >Such environments already exist. SuperCard, Plus, and the Course Builder >courseware environments are here. HyperCard has done its job of popularizing >that type of software. Sheesh, some people are never satisfied. What HyperCard does is add value to the system you've purchased. It does this in two ways. First, it's free, and it's a good program. SuperCard, et al., are not free. Second, it's a standard, and everybody who has a Mac has HyperCard. This allows everyone who has a Mac to run any stack, and anyone who has a Mac to write -- with relative ease -- a fairly sophisticated program with graphics, etc. which every other member of the Mac community can enjoy. [...] > >The basic problem with Apple is that it has gone the way of other megalithic >corporations and lost its ability to get to market innovative products. Nonsense. BTW, who do you see out there marketing "innovative" products. Clone makers? The original point of this thread -- which I think has been lost -- is that Apple cannot compete on price with clone makers, since Apple has a large R&D budget to support. This is true, whether you like it or not. Who do you think is paying for System 7, the NEA? No, we are. (Of course, I still think Macs could be priced somewhat lower, but that's a flame for a different time. :->). It is doubtful that HyperCard itself adds much to that R&D cost, since the original HyperCard was developed by a team of fewer than 10 people (mainly Bill Atkinson). As for whether HyperCard has value: look at the real world. Of course it does. Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
awessels@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (07/09/90)
In article <1990Jul7.225429.22821@midway.uchicago.edu> gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >"Apple doesn't price its computers for the educational market"? Maybe, if you >buy retail. But at many universities and community colleges you can get Macs >for less than 50% of retail. A Plus for <$700, for instance. A Mac Plus is not a Macintosh system. You need at least another 800k drive to make it functional. Also, my point was made with the perspective of hisory in mind. The price drop in the Plus is typical of Apple when it plans on discontinuing a model. Apple should have made this move a year ago. >Nonsense. BTW, who do you see out there marketing "innovative" products. >Clone makers? Innovative not wrt new products, but innovative wrt giving more price/ performance. Apple can market both a high-end line to recoup the R&D budget, and a low end to build a mass market. Maybe if Apple could deliver the numbers that give clone buyers leverage in buying other products for their machines, people wouldn't gripe so much about paying for the box. >The original point of this thread -- which I think has been lost -- is that >Apple cannot compete on price with clone makers, since Apple has a large R&D >budget to support. This is true, whether you like it or not. Who do you think >is paying for System 7, the NEA? No, we are. (Of course, I still think Macs >could be priced somewhat lower, but that's a flame for a different time. :->). >It is doubtful that HyperCard itself adds much to that R&D cost, since the >original HyperCard was developed by a team of fewer than 10 people (mainly Bill >Atkinson). As for whether HyperCard has value: look at the real world. Of >course it does. I don't think anyone has said that Apple could sell a machine for less than a clone. But Apple's current moves have been way too slow and been in response only to massive complaints around the industry. Of course, the clones have been making large inroads to the market they are beginning to address and so these changes have more to compete against. I'm sure HyperCard has value, but I'm not so sure the value is to the end-user. Most people I know who have Macs don't use HyperCard for much of anything. The advantage of HyperCard is in development, and I have yet to see how that advantage has passed on to end users. Possibly in the number of products available - except that many of those are HyperCard devlopment aids.
siegman@sierra.STANFORD.EDU (siegman) (07/09/90)
My two opinions on this thread: 1) I won't express an opinion pro or con on the value of Hypercard as a programming system for amateur programmers, or as a sales tool for Macs -- though I some time ago decided there was no stackware I was finding useful, and de-accessioned HyperCard completely. (Maybe getting a CD-ROM drive would change that.) But I'll point out once again -- hope this doesn't get tiresome -- that for the amateur, occasional, part-time programmer (at any level from high-school student to full professor) who wants to write a few real Mac-like programs now and then, to do real work, QuickBASIC provides a superb, powerful, easy to learn and easy to use real Mac programming environment and language. Certain interface-intensive tasks I'd certainly chose to implement in HyperCard. But QuickBASIC programming on the Mac, even with interface considerations included, is certainly no harder to learn or use than is HyperCard scripting, especially if you want to "write a program"; and the hardware and memory requirements are very much less. (And you can end up with a nice small free-standing clickable application.) 2) IMHO the debates raging in this and other groups over the relative merits of the Mac versus Windows 3.0 are largely irrelevant. A very large number of novice computer buyers (and a large number of elementary and high school educators needing to replace their Apple IIs) are going to look at Windows 3.0, and say, "Hey, that's great!! ... Just like the Mac!" (whether that's true or not) ". And then they're going to look at clone prices, and at the total system they can get for their limited dollars (and the warranties), and say "And a lot cheaper too!!" And they're going to buy the clone with Windows. (And developers are going to look at, what is it, 1 million Macs, and 7 (?) million PCs and growing, out there, and decide where to steer their creativity.) I don't think Apple yet really believes this will happen. We'll see...
pease@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Pease) (07/11/90)
In article <33543@ut-emx.UUCP>, awessels@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes... > >I'm sure HyperCard has value, but I'm not so sure the value is to the end-user. >Most people I know who have Macs don't use HyperCard for much of anything. >The advantage of HyperCard is in development, and I have yet to see how that >advantage has passed on to end users. Possibly in the number of products >available - except that many of those are HyperCard devlopment aids. Hypercard is the most useful program (except for word processor) that I use on a computer. I have written my own stack to perform configuration control activities on a major sofware development effort. I use this stack to keep track of what stage an program is in, who is doing what to a program, are there any problems reported with a program, does a change require documentation revision, and to keep history on changes made to any program (of which there are around 200 application functions and about 20 support subroutine packages. These programs are being developed in two separate locations and are tested on 5 different computer systems. My stack keeps information on all of this and automatically creates a summary report and a current problems list which which is place in a file and is automatically brought into a word processor for final editing/cleanup before distributing to project personnel. It has made my job as configuration manager much easier and more productive. I would not even consider buying a home computer which does not have Hypercard or its equivalent. I also use it to manage my home maintenance activities and by flower and vegetable gardens as I track the plant variaties. Phil Pease My witty disclaimer - everything I perceive, through either sensory or extrasensory means, has been filtered to such an extent that you had better not attempt to attribute anything I say to anyone else.