ba0k+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brian Patrick Arnold) (10/02/90)
To everyone fuming mad at Apple and Claris over HyperCard 2.0's release: THINK. Let's all have our concerns, but the recent responses by members of THE HYPERCARD DEVELOPMENT TEAM and of ITS MANAGEMENT have both essentially said that "the press release and MacWeek were misleading and there's nothing to worry about". Dang it, call me a fool, but even with their disclaimers, I trust these people MUCH more than I do a sheet of paper with an apple in the corner or a rag like MacLeak. It's good to be in a camp with so many concerned people and I'm sure both Claris and Apple appreciate it at one level, but frankly I find jumping on the bandwagon of mistrust for Apple and Claris to be ignorant and stupid. An increasing number of responders didn't have the brains to figure out there will be only one binary version of HyperCard which was recently confirmed, so I wonder how effectively these "concerned individuals" will be able to interpret much else. It's starting to look like people will be demanding clarifications on clarifications for a while and dang it I'd like to see more of us come to our senses, THINK, give management a little credit, and maybe get on to more worthwhile problems. The future of HyperCard is definitely a worthwhile problem, but it's clear from the HyperCard team itself that most of us ought to wait for the next official announcement before jumping to any more conclusions. I personally look forward to real documentation and real programming tools from Claris in the $50-100 range. In the past, I have needed to plunk down $20-30 for decent HyperTalk books and $50-100 for decent HyperTalk programming tools, so I can't see what problem I'd have paying Claris to receive quality support for such an important product that has never really had quality support extended to developers. Are so many of us ignorant enough to forget that HyperCard 1.x.x has never had decent free documentation, decent free programmer's tools and support? Does anyone have problems besides "wanna-be-Apple/Claris-managers who know what's best for all of us" that they'd like to have answered? - Brian
erich@crash.cts.com (Eric Hicks) (10/02/90)
In article <sb1v=La00UhWA2kPMK@andrew.cmu.edu> ba0k+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brian Patrick Arnold) writes: > >I personally look forward to real documentation and real programming >tools from Claris in the $50-100 range. In the past, I have needed to >plunk down $20-30 for decent HyperTalk books and $50-100 for decent >HyperTalk programming tools, so I can't see what problem I'd have paying >Claris to receive quality support for such an important product that has >never really had quality support extended to developers. Are so many of >us ignorant enough to forget that HyperCard 1.x.x has never had decent >free documentation, decent free programmer's tools and support? > >- Brian So now you'll spend $50-$100 on Hypercard AND $50-$100 dollars on decent HyperTalk books/programming tools. Of course, by that time we'll have become used to the idea, so we won't kick nearly as much. It's all a question of perspective. Off the subject a bit, I've heard that Bill Atkinson had a contract signed when he developed HyperCard stating that it would always be free and bundled with Macs. (Something to do with Bill no longer trusting Apple after they went back on their verbal agreement concerning MacPaint.) If so, maybe Bill could give Apple a taste of their own medicine, or at least release the source to HyperCard as Public Domain. Nah, Bill's too nice a guy... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> < UUCP: {nosc ucsd hplabs!hp-sdd}!crash!erich > < ARPA: crash!erich@nosc.mil > < INET: erich@crash.cts.com > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
rbrink@hubcap.clemson.edu (Rick Brink) (10/03/90)
From article <sb1v=La00UhWA2kPMK@andrew.cmu.edu>, by ba0k+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brian Patrick Arnold): > > To everyone fuming mad at Apple and Claris over HyperCard 2.0's release: > > THINK. > > Let's all have our concerns, but the recent responses by members of THE Stuff deleted..... > conclusions. > Does anyone have problems besides "wanna-be-Apple/Claris-managers who > know what's best for all of us" that they'd like to have answered? > > - Brian How much stock do you own? Seriously, you are right. All this bickering and backlash just makes the DOS people smile. "See, Apple screwed you again...." I can just hear my brother... Brians points are good. If you just want a free bundle of paper (the old hypercard manuals...) go to a used bookstore and buy something to read.
ba0k+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brian Patrick Arnold) (10/04/90)
So, since so many of us feed off of third-hand misinformation, here are excerpts from this week's MacWeek article on "Apple tries to ease Hyper anxiety" pseudo-quoting from Mike Holm, HyperCard product manager: "There are no plans to ship a 'crippled' HyperCard...the binary is the real thing...the...bundled HyperCard will have the same script editor and stack-creation functions as the full development tool.... In the bundled version, however, stack-editing options will be concealed from users and...only one...disk, containing HyperCard and a few stacks, will be included.... The decision to hide scripting was made in part because people in Apple's Instructional Products group were concerned that naive users would accidentally damage stacks they use if authoring and scripting capabilities could be activated too easily. Plans to ship just one HyperCard disk...were made...before the decision to have Claris distribute the full version was made.... The Claris-labeled [development] version will include five disks and about 700 pages of documentation on HyperCard, stack design and the HyperTalk scripting language. Retail pricing for the full [development] version has not been set, but...[current] HyperCard owners will be able to upgrade for $49." Okay, before that, I said: >I personally look forward to real documentation and real programming >tools from Claris in the $50-100 range. Wow I missed it by a buck. Then Eric Hicks pointed out: >So now you'll spend $50-$100 on Hypercard AND $50-$100 dollars on >decent HyperTalk books/programming tools. Yes and no. I DO expect to shell out, er, $49 on HyperCard AND decent documentation/tools, and maybe $25 for a new HyperTalk book. I have no illusions that HyperCard 2.0 is much improved and will require me to invest some more, but $74 IS LESS than the ~$150 I (or my grant) shelled out on fluffy books and inferior tools for HyperCard 1.2.5. I DON'T expect to shell out a penny if I just want to develop with the HyperCard 2.0 application alone (with a stack or two thrown in). We ought to be able to upgrade our HyperCard application and Home stack using our own disk for free, but I for one am considering the developer's upgrade because it simply makes sense for me. Eric goes on to say: >...I've heard that Bill Atkinson had a contract signed when he >developed HyperCard stating that it would always be free and bundled The announcement already stated that HyperCard is still being bundled with Macs. Maybe the application itself is not totally free for us anymore, we will see. Anywhoo, Bill did not play a central role in HyperCard 2.0's development. I think the part about Bill threatening to release the source in the public domain is reaching a little - binary yes, source no. In a different post, Rick Brink asks: >How much stock do you own? 100 @^#$%!* shares. That doesn't pledge my allegiance to the company which occasionally does some obviously incredibly brainless and stupid things (the Iraq situation really sank the stock along with everything else anyway). But my foolhardy drive to hang on to their stock partially represents my high appreciation of the many insanely great things the company STILL does for us pee-ons. Despite all the wind blowing on the net about Apple "continuing to falter" and making bad decisions, I think HyperCard 2.0 and the positioning of Claris to develop support tools for it will come to signify some of those insanely great ideas that still come (er, came) from Apple. The only blemishes so far are a horrendous delay in HyperCard 2.0's release and in a horrendously worded initial press announcement. The worst potential blemish involving us I think will have been avoided once the hullabaloo (I just wanted to spell that) dies down and reality sinks in. - Brian
kraig@biostr.biostr.washington.edu (Kraig Eno) (10/10/90)
> Does anyone have problems besides "wanna-be-Apple/Claris-managers who > know what's best for all of us" that they'd like to have answered? I suppose I would have problems and questions if I had an actual binary to work with. I am a user, not a would-be manager, and my question is, how can I get a copy of this software? Kraig Eno, kraig@biostr.washington.edu "To Coin a Phrase, I'm Perplexed." -- James Gaskin
laird@slum.MV.COM (Laird Heal) (10/30/90)
In article <sb1v=La00UhWA2kPMK@andrew.cmu.edu> ba0k+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brian Patrick Arnold) writes: > >To everyone fuming mad at Apple and Claris over HyperCard 2.0's release: > I chilled out the instant I heard it was unbundled. >[...] it's clear from the HyperCard team itself that most of us ought to >wait for the next official announcement before jumping to any more >conclusions. Do you remember how well Claris supported MacWrite after Apple transferred it to them? The Tech Notes on the MacWrite file formats were changed to refer to Claris, who refused even to provide the information to an Apple engineer who had to ask the net for copies of the original notes (on MacWrite 2.2 and 4.5). > >I personally look forward to real documentation and real programming >tools from Claris in the $50-100 range. I look forward to the day when stuff I might otherwise want to read comes as a Hypercard 2.0-only stack. Then I'll trash Hypercard 1.2.5 from my hard disks. If Apple expects me to spend money for something that is no more good to me than to look over some stacks a few others have written, then they should realize that what they are doing is removing HyperCard as its place as the lingua franca of Macintosh. I looked over HyperCard when it came out and the XFCN interface was not versatile enough for me, but like MacWrite before it, because everyone had a copy you could transfer files easily. I did not buy MacWrite 5.0, and I do not anticipate buying HyperCard 2.0 or accepting a limited version. -- Laird Heal laird@slum.MV.COM The world is my office. (Salem, NH) +1 603 898 1406<-----I charge for opinions, though.