mm@blake.acs.washington.edu (Eric Gorr) (05/22/89)
I was just wondering if anyone was aware of when Hypercard 2.0 was supposed to be released. Thanx..
mm@blake.acs.washington.edu (Eric Gorr) (07/13/89)
I was just wondering if anyone was aware when Hypercard 2.0 is going to be released?
21765LD@MSU.BITNET (09/11/89)
Does anyone out there know what we can expect from Hypercard 2.0? I have heard rumors about everything from color support to extended debugging. What's the scoop? Anyone out there from Apple who knows the truth? With anticipation, Leora Druckman 21765LD@IBM.CL.MSU.EDU
ianf@nada.kth.se (Ian Feldman) (09/12/89)
In article <11321765LD@MSU> 21765LD@MSU.BITNET writes: >Does anyone out there know what we can expect from Hypercard 2.0? Accept it as an educated guess (ie, another name for hearsay, innuendo & gossip): * multiple windows onscreen ( of the same, static, size) has to do with the highly efficient compression used by HC and backward compatibility * ability to define own palettes from within HC (ie not an XCMD) * several of the XCMD/ XCFNs -like functions built right in so these XCMDs won't be needed anymore * multi-headline buttons ( presently of single line type) * sprite (object) animation * command recall via msg box (history) * modeless script-environment, ie not in a modal box * extended, more flexible printing routines * enuf? -- You just survived another load of gross exaggerations from Ian Feldman, the ASCII hacker ianf@nada.kth.se / ianf@sekth.bitnet ianf%nada.kth.se@uunet.uu.net / uunet!nada.kth.se!ianf
gjditchfield@watmsg.waterloo.edu (Glen Ditchfield) (11/21/89)
In article <14046@boulder.Colorado.EDU> johnsonr@spot.colorado.edu (Richard Johnson) writes: >... Is this on the list of things to fix for HyperCard 2.0? HyperCard 2.0 is a myth, a mirage. It isn't even vaporware; its been more than a year since anyone from Apple even hinted that HyperCard's bugs might someday be fixed, let alone that a major upgrade might happen. Why should Apple bother creating HyperCard 2.0? They give HyperCard away; a new release wouldn't sell that many more Macs. And it _would_ take bread from the mouths of HyperCard's commercial competitors. Apple doesn't want to do that. Remember how often MacPaint upgrades came out? If you want fixes, buy a commercial hypertext program, and pester its authors. Glen Ditchfield gjditchfield@violet.uwaterloo.ca Office: DC 2517 Dept. of Computer Science, U of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, N2L 3G1
rieman@boulder.Colorado.EDU (John Rieman) (11/21/89)
In article <31728@watmath.waterloo.edu> gjditchfield@watmsg.waterloo.edu (Glen Ditchfield) writes: ... >HyperCard 2.0 is a myth, a mirage. ... > Why should Apple bother creating HyperCard 2.0? They give HyperCard >away; a new release wouldn't sell that many more Macs. Apple gives away the system and finder too, but they keep revising it. And supplying a more powerful Hypercard -- say, one supporting color or multiple windows -- could certainly help Apple's hardware sales by encouraging the purchase of better monitors, more memory, and faster CPUs. (Hello? Hello? Is anyone at Apple listening?) -john
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (11/21/89)
>(Hello? Hello? Is anyone at Apple listening?)
*Yawn* *Stretch* Um, what? Huh? Sorry, I was taking a nap.
Without confirming or denying anything, let me attempt to muddy the waters
thusly: I find it amusing that a company would get villified if they
pre-announce (i.e. vaporware) a product before it's ready to ship. And can
get villified just as strongly for keeping quiet until the egg is ready to
hatch. Given that, it's a no-win situation. If this mythical hypercard 2.0
exists, and I'm not saying anything about whether it does or not, and if
Apple were to announce in July, 1990 that it won't ship until September,
2001, (are those dates unrealistic enough to stay out of MacLeek? Hope
so...), then everyone would jump down Apple's throats for pre-announcing
things that don't exist.
On the other hand, since Apple hasn't said anything, we're getting people
jumping down our throats for *not* pre-announcing things that don't exist.
Seems like a silly concept to me.
Me, personally, I'd rather a company keep their mouth shut until they know
what's going into it and when it's going to ship. The alternative (the
"Fullwrite will ship next week, really, honest, for sure this time!" or the
"Lotus 1-2-3 is going to be the best thing since sliced bread!" syndromes)
generate a lot of heat and negative vibes all around.
Disclaimer: since I work with Unix and not hypercard, I don't know what I'm
talking about. Which should be obvious....
--
Chuq Von Rospach <+> Editor,OtherRealms <+> Member SFWA/ASFA
chuq@apple.com <+> CI$: 73317,635 <+> [This is myself speaking]
All it takes is one thorn to make you forget the dozens of roses on the bush.kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu (Stephen Kurtzman) (11/21/89)
In article <36655@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >Me, personally, I'd rather a company keep their mouth shut until they know >what's going into it and when it's going to ship. The alternative (the >"Fullwrite will ship next week, really, honest, for sure this time!" or the >"Lotus 1-2-3 is going to be the best thing since sliced bread!" syndromes) >generate a lot of heat and negative vibes all around. Practically speaking, this is not possible. A company must make some declaration of support for a product's future if they intend to have customers come upgrade time. They can avoid announcing shipping dates, new features, etc. but the company must say something affirmative or people will move to products from vendors that are more responsive. BTW, I'm not saying anything pro or con about the way Apple has handled HyperCard 2.0. ----- Stephen Kurtzman | "where desire writhed there stands a stone" kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu | "the change was sudden and complete" | -- Maggie Roche
rieman@boulder.Colorado.EDU (John Rieman) (11/21/89)
Chuq Von Rospach writes... >[if we preannounced too early,] then everyone would jump down Apple's >throats for pre-announcing things that don't exist. > >On the other hand, since Apple hasn't said anything, we're getting people >jumping down our throats for *not* pre-announcing things that don't exist. I think the HyperCard situation is a little unusual. Because of Hypercard's history, the question is not so much what new features are in the works and when they'll be available -- it's whether there are *any* significant new features in the works. Sounds like we'll have to wait and see. (Or, if we're in a hurry, wait and C.) -john
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (11/22/89)
I think all of us in the developer community applaud Apple's pre-release of information on System 7.0; it helps us plot our own future courses more easily. The same should be true of HyperCard 2.0, but unfortunately, it is still being treeated with the old philosophy that Apple keeps sending us little brown pieces of paper claiming to have repudiated. I am writing a stack that needs more than HyperCard 1.2.2 can give, and it would be nice to know if I could expect these things to appear in HyperCard 2.0, or if I should be spending a great deal of time researching alternative hypersoftware and writing XCMDs to try to solve my problems. Apple's reticence on HyperCard 2.0 features is causing real damage to this project. -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com This message does represent the views of Eclectic Software.
bskendig@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) (11/22/89)
In article <9034@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >... I am writing a stack that needs more than HyperCard >1.2.2 can give, and it would be nice to know if I could expect these >things to appear in HyperCard 2.0, or if I should be spending a great >deal of time researching alternative hypersoftware and writing XCMDs to >try to solve my problems. Apple's reticence on HyperCard 2.0 features >is causing real damage to this project. Here, the hush-hush about HyperCard 2.0 is helping my project in the short run, but spelling its death in the long run. As long as there are no upgrades planned (read: announced) for HyperCard, I judge it at face value, and therefore I find SuperCard *much* better suited for the stuff I have to do (color, full screen). However, SuperCard doesn't appear to be all-kosher with the Apple guidelines, so it will (quite assuredly) break with System 7... I really do wish that HyperCard 2.0 had been announced like System 7 was. In that case, I could have been able to plan for the new features available to me and program accordingly. << Brian >> -- | Brian S. Kendig | I feel more like I | bskendig | | Computer Engineering | did when I got here | @phoenix.Princeton.EDU | | Princeton University | than I do now. | @PUCC.BITNET | | Systems Engineering, NASA Space Station Freedom / General Electric WP3 |
amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker) (11/23/89)
In article <36655@apple.Apple.COM>, chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: > Me, personally, I'd rather a company keep their mouth shut until they know > what's going into it and when it's going to ship. The alternative (the > "Fullwrite will ship next week, really, honest, for sure this time!" or the > "Lotus 1-2-3 is going to be the best thing since sliced bread!" syndromes) > generate a lot of heat and negative vibes all around. I share Chuq's amusement at the no-win pressure from people, but there are some serious (and not-so-serious) issues here: - People like to be "in the know". Stuff that Apple people are working on is usually very nifty stuff. People outside Apple like to find out about it so that they can impress other people with the nifty stuff they've found out about. MacLeak is a prime example. I am pretty confident in claiming that one of the reasons they are as popular as they are is that they usually get pretty accurate leaks. Everyone who reads the last page first, raise your hand :-). How many project leaders would have a heart attack if they saw a MacWeek mug appear on an engineer's desk :-)? My sympathy lies with Apple on this one, for one important reason: - Products are not stable until they ship. Getting advance information only helps you plan if it is accurate. Things come up at the last minute. That is they way of engineering. Even with all of the disclaimers plastered all over it, Apple went way out on a limb with the System 7.0 preview. I think it was an excellent move, but I still look at the nice big black binder as more of an "artist's rendition" than a draft IM volume. If Apple does anything other that vague direction statements, people will start planning on future products, and if anything happens (which it will) to change or delay those products, they will blame Apple. No information is often better than wrong information. Let's take a real live non-Apple example. My company did a preview of our next product at a recent trade show. It was explicitly presented as "this is a preview--you can't buy this, but you will be able to buy something like it in a few months." We got lots of good response, and lots of requests to beta test it :-). The product as it stands has some resemblance to what we showed in October, but it has some major differences, too. Some things have been dropped from the design spec, and others have been added. If we pinned our design spec to what we showed people, we'd be doing a disservice to our customers and ourselves. Apple is even more in this position, since their market is a lot bigger than ours, and their products have a lot more mass appeal. Companies have already put out ads claiming their stuff is System 7.0 compatible. This is *stupid*. Until it's frozen and disks are shipped, even Apple can't claim that. If Apple publicized their design goals for future versions of HyperCard, they would lose the flexibility they need to solve the problems they face and make it the best possible product. Well, enough soapboxing for now :-). Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation amanda@intercon.com --
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (11/23/89)
> - Products are not stable until they ship. > Getting advance information only helps you plan if it is accurate. Definitely, for a lot of reasons. Suppose, for example, the Apple announces HyperCard 2.0 and the feature-list includes things like multiple stacks, multiple windows, full-screen usage, sticky buttons, color, stereo sound, a MIDI driver, a toaster-oven interface and intelligent software for controlling your Mr. Coffee (TM). When you announce something, people expect it to happen; they also expect it to happen when you tell them it will (people in the computer industry should know better by now, but that's another issue). Now we find out that the folks who were building the Mr. Coffee interface were a little optimistic about their schedules, and Apple has a choice. They can either slip Hypercard 2.0 nine months waiting for the Mr. Coffee software or they can cut it from the release. Now, they're going to get yelled at either by the people who want it *now* or the people who *have* to have the Mr. Coffee interface. Again everyone loses. Then, of course, there is the "Osborne syndrome", in which you pre-announce the neat new product and it's *so* good everyone stops buying the current product so they'll be ready when it ships -- the result being revenues head towards zero and the product never ships at all, since the companie dies. There is this tap-dance-in-a-mine-field companies have to do between disemminating information about things that need to be made public and shooting themselves in the foot by saying the wrong things at the wrong time. The bottom line is this: there's a difference between "want to know" and "need to know" -- if you have a product that's going to depend on product futures of some sort, then you should talk to Apple about a non-disclosure and getting a futures briefing. They'll tell you what's going on if you can convince them it's necessary and are willing to not blab it around. You can usually get the information if you need it. But the place to get inforamtion about unannounced stuff isn't USENET -- and if a product isn't announced, thre's usually a good reason. chuq (disclaimer: I've got no idea what's going on in the HyperCard world. I do Unix. And it's doubtful they're doing a Mr. Coffee interface....) -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> Editor,OtherRealms <+> Member SFWA/ASFA chuq@apple.com <+> CI$: 73317,635 <+> [This is myself speaking] All it takes is one thorn to make you forget the dozens of roses on the bush.
dnewman@ut-emx.UUCP (Dave Newman) (11/26/89)
I'd just like to see something like: "We're now working on HyperCard 2.0."
Or perhaps a note to the effect that "We plan to announce HyperCard 2.0 in
xxx weeks." In otherwords, more of a statement of committment rather than
a definite announcement of specifications or features.
Apple may have made such a statement already, but when nothing further is
said, people get nervous. In such a situation, updates like the following
might be nice: "We're still working on HyperCard 2.0" or "We now anticipate
an announcement of HyperCard 2.0 in yyy weeks rather than xxx as previously
announced."
Amanda's points about potential changes to stated goals for features and
specifications are well-taken. But surely we can expect something to calm
our nerves when nothing is said about a product that we are awaiting with
baited breath?
Ignorantly,
>>Daveamanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker) (11/27/89)
In article <21412@ut-emx.UUCP>, dnewman@ut-emx.UUCP (Dave Newman) writes: > Amanda's points about potential changes to stated goals for features and > specifications are well-taken. But surely we can expect something to calm > our nerves when nothing is said about a product that we are awaiting with > baited breath? I do sympathize; I'm real interested to see where HyperCard heads, especially in the area of speed. It's already great at updating the screen (my biggest problem with SuperCard), but scripts are still not all that fast, even on a Mac II. In particular, I think that it would be a great improvement if non-trivial user interface features could be implemented in HyperTalk and still keep things responsive, even if the semantics of HyperTalk remained just as they already are. One thing to keep in mind is that Apple has a very good track record of changing their products, especially when those products have been declared "system software" :-). My guess (which is just that, this time) is that we won't see another version of HyperCard before System 7.0 hits the streets, but that we will see one either at that time or shortly thereafter. HyperCard is the most obvious thing to drop user-customizable support for IAC into, among other things. It's already got a nice little script interpreter and user interface, and giving HyperTalk the ability to send and receive messages to and from other applications would give it a huge amount of new leverage. Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation amanda@intercon.com --
stadler@Apple.COM (Andy Stadler) (11/27/89)
In article <21412@ut-emx.UUCP> dnewman@emx.UUCP (David Newman) writes: >I'd just like to see something like: "We're now working on HyperCard 2.0." >Or perhaps a note to the effect that "We plan to announce HyperCard 2.0 in >xxx weeks." In otherwords, more of a statement of committment rather than >a definite announcement of specifications or features. > >Apple may have made such a statement already, but when nothing further is >said, people get nervous. In such a situation, updates like the following >might be nice: "We're still working on HyperCard 2.0" or "We now anticipate >an announcement of HyperCard 2.0 in yyy weeks rather than xxx as previously >announced." > > [..] > >Ignorantly, >>>Dave Well, now and again various Apple engineers have been on this board and have stated specifically things which would or wouldn't be in HyperCard 2.0. --Andy stadler@apple.com Disclaimer: Should there happen to indeed be a project called HyperCard 2.0, I don't happen to work on it. I'm working on something even cooler.
jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) (11/30/89)
In case you're wondering whether anyone from the HyperCard team is listening, the answer is yes. I've entered that Mr. Coffee thing as Feature Requests number 86,934a (interface) and number 86,934b (driver) :-) Kevin Calhoun HyperCard Team
rieman@boulder.Colorado.EDU (John Rieman) (11/30/89)
In article <36874@apple.Apple.COM> jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) writes: > >In case you're wondering whether anyone from the HyperCard team is listening, >the answer is yes. I've entered that Mr. Coffee thing as Feature Requests >number 86,934a (interface) and number 86,934b (driver) :-) > >Kevin Calhoun >HyperCard Team Hey, we were wondering if there even *was* a HyperCard team! Bummer about your taking on the Mr. Coffee challenge, though. Guess I'll have to shift my efforts to a Mr. Refrigerator XFCN. (A tougher problem -- it doesn't just turn on an appliance, it returns something to eat.) -john John Rieman CU Boulder
gasp@cs.bu.edu (Isaac Kohane) (02/09/90)
Thanks to those who sent me EMAIL regarding the HC 2.0 release date. The most informed sources thought that the 2.0 release would occur around the time of the release of System 7.0 to take advantage of some of that system's features. Any other rumors or factoids? -Zak
jk3t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jonathan King) (02/09/90)
gasp@cs.bu.edu (Isaac Kohane) writes: > Thanks to those who sent me EMAIL regarding the HC 2.0 release date. > The most informed sources thought that the 2.0 release would occur > around the time of the release of System 7.0 to take advantage of some > of that system's features. Any other rumors or factoids? Well, if Hypercard 2.0's release date is now being tied to that of System 7.0, then that suggests we can have no clue as to when it will really come out. May? July? 1991? Who knows? The only sane thing to do is to assume that the thing does not exist (event though it surely does) and do what you can with the current version. The amount of useful information contained in most rumors about Hypercard 2.0 is probably negligible, and the amount of misinformation probably substantial. Personally, I'm still waiting for real data structures, and the promised* Mr. Coffee interface. jking *well, at least we were told it was on the official feature request list...
roskill@cs.umass.edu (03/15/90)
Howdy, I've been seeing a lot of talk about Hypercard 2.0 on the net, but has anyone heard when it is going to be released? Just tryin' to figure out my stupid mail system, Damian |----------------------------------------------------------------| |"Party For Your Right To Fight" | "Welcome to the Terrordome!"| | Damian Roskill | | | Roskill@cs.umass.edu | | |----------------------------------------------------------------|
mwartak@pro-angmar.UUCP (Martin Wartak) (07/01/90)
In-Reply-To: message from jamesth@microsoft.UUCP From what I've heard, you can expect to see HyperCard 2.0 in mass quantities at Apple Dealers sometime in early July. Martin Wartak | InterNet: pro-angmar!mwartak@alphalpha.com Twisted Pair Consulting | UUCP: !uunet!alphalpha!pro-angmar!mwartak AOL: MartinW | FidoNet: Martin Wartak at 1:101/121 CIS: 72357,313 | USnail: 56 Fenno St. Cambridge, MA 02138
wolf@mel.cipl.uiowa (07/03/90)
In the press release for HC2.0, it stated that card sizes of up to 18 inches would be possible. Does this mean scrollable cards or simply, you can make the card the size of your larger monitors? WOLF@MEL.CIPL.UIOWA.EDU
cpv0@GTE.COM (Cameron Vaziri) (07/04/90)
In article <1990Jul2.130519.1@mel.cipl.uiowa>, wolf@mel.cipl.uiowa writes: > In the press release for HC2.0, it stated that card sizes of up to 18 inches > would be possible. Does this mean scrollable cards or simply, you can make the > card the size of your larger monitors? > > WOLF@MEL.CIPL.UIOWA.EDU If your monitor is too small for the card size then HyperCard 2.0 will let you place the card into a scrolling window. I believe there is also a palette which lets you navigate to a certain region (looks like a frame within a frame which shows you the visible portion of the card with respect to the overall card area). The above is based on an all to quick demo of a beta version of HyperCard 2.0. Please forgive me if the above description is either too cryptic or somewhat inaccurate. Pete Vaziri cpv0@gte.com
rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) (07/06/90)
In article <9398@bunny.GTE.COM> cpv0@GTE.COM (Cameron Vaziri) writes: > In article <1990Jul2.130519.1@mel.cipl.uiowa>, wolf@mel.cipl.uiowa writes: > > In the press release for HC2.0, it stated that card sizes of up to 18 inches > > would be possible. Does this mean scrollable cards or simply, you can make the > > card the size of your larger monitors? > > > > WOLF@MEL.CIPL.UIOWA.EDU > > If your monitor is too small for the card size then HyperCard 2.0 > will let you place the card into a scrolling window. Tried to mail to you, but it bounced - sorry to trouble the net. Cameron is right about the scrolling window. HC 2.0 also allows you to set the card size for the cards in a stack. You can set any custom size you like (from about 1" sq. to about 18" sq.), or choose from a set of standard sizes (9" screen, 12" screen, and so on). But note that *all* the cards in a stack must be the same size. ========================================================================== Rick Holzgrafe | {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!rmh Software Engineer | AppleLink HOLZGRAFE1 rmh@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. | "All opinions expressed are mine, and do 20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 77-A | not necessarily represent those of my Cupertino, CA 95014 | employer, Apple Computer Inc."
bdest@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Benoit Desjardins) (07/28/90)
Many of you obviously seem to have a copy of Hypercard 2.0. Would someone be kind enough to E-Mail me a stuffed and binhexed copy of the latest version (not to this list, but to my personnal E-Mail address? Benoit Desjardins benoit@speedy.cs.pitt.edu
BAXTER_A@wehi.dn.mu.oz (08/17/90)
In article <26281@unix.cis.pitt.edu>, bdest@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Benoit Desjardins) writes: > Many of you obviously seem to have a copy of Hypercard 2.0. Would > someone be kind enough to E-Mail me a stuffed and binhexed copy of the > latest version (not to this list, but to my personnal E-Mail address? > > Benoit Desjardins > benoit@speedy.cs.pitt.edu Is piracy to be condoned in this newgroup then? Regards Alan
KPURCELL@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (08/21/90)
How can you pirate system software if you already have a Mac (i.e. you already have a license for the System software)? The problem is that HC 2.0 hasn't left the factory yet :-( And giving away HC 2.0 beta-something is probably against your non-disclosure agreement :-( Still waiting, Kevin Kevin Purcell | kpurcell@liverpool.ac.uk Surface Science Centre | Liverpool University | Omit needless words.
mennella@irst.UUCP (Giuseppe Mennella) (09/07/90)
Is HyperCard 2.0 available by ftp from apple.com or another site? ........yes! What's the complete path where find it? Thanks in advance ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: Giuseppe Mennella :: :: I.R.S.T. Povo :: :: Trento -- Italy :: :: :: :: mennella@irst.uucp :: :: mennella%irst.it :: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) (09/08/90)
The decision has been made here not to make HyperCard 2.0 available via ftp. Neither will it be available for downloading on any of the commercial online services. I very much regret the inconvenience this will cause many of you and the delay in getting 2.0 into your hands. None of us who are regular readers of this newsgroup had anything to do with the decision. We're just the engineers... Kevin Calhoun Software engineer Apple Computer
Scott D. Camp <Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> (09/09/90)
In article <44630@apple.Apple.COM>, jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) says: > >The decision has been made here not to make HyperCard 2.0 available via >ftp. Neither will it be available for downloading on any of the commercial >online services. > >delay in getting 2.0 into your hands. > >None of us who are regular readers of this newsgroup had anything to do >with the decision. We're just the engineers... > >Kevin Calhoun >Software engineer >Apple Computer I certainly don't want to flame any of the Apple employees who spend their own time answering questions and providing information on the net. As Kevin notes, this decision was not made by any of that group of individuals. However, I must say that I am disappointed with this decision on the part of Apple. I won't die having to wait until a copy of 2.0 makes its way to my university support group, and I have to wait a day or two until they get around to copying it for me. However, it would have been much nicer had I not had to pursue this route. One of the reasons I was excited about Apple releasing HC 2.0 over the net, and I know this sounds corny, was because it was a service they were extending to at least some of their users. And as many people have pointed out in many forums, Apple is not noted for the service they provide to users who are not Fortune 500 corporations. Now, it may be that Apple decided it was too expensive for them to use some of their resources to make HyperCard available to an admittedly small group of net users. I don't know. However, I would like to know. So, my request to Apple would be to give us an explanation for why this scheme was abandoned. In reality, this request is directed to those employees at Apple who may know why this project was abandoned. Maybe if the official explanation could be posted, then we won't spend a lot of time flaming Apple for not providing HC 2.0 via ftp. I know that I for one will reserve my opinions on this action until I obtain more information. Thank you to anyone at Apple who is listening. Again, none of this is intended to be a flame of either Apple the corporation or any individuals at Apple. Scott D. Camp Q8N@PSUVM.PSU.EDU The Pennsylvania State University 305 Oswald Tower University Park, PA 16802 814-863-0121
Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) (09/09/90)
In article <44630@apple.Apple.COM>, jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) says: > >The decision has been made here not to make HyperCard 2.0 available via >ftp. Neither will it be available for downloading on any of the commercial >online services. > >delay in getting 2.0 into your hands. > >None of us who are regular readers of this newsgroup had anything to do >with the decision. We're just the engineers... > >Kevin Calhoun >Software engineer >Apple Computer I certainly don't want to flame any of the Apple employees who spend their own time answering questions and providing information on the net. As Kevin notes, this decision was not made by any of that group of individuals. However, I must say that I am disappointed with this decision on the part of Apple. I won't die having to wait until a copy of 2.0 makes its way to my university support group, and I have to wait a day or two until they get around to copying it for me. However, it would have been much nicer had I not had to pursue this route. One of the reasons I was excited about Apple releasing HC 2.0 over the net, and I know this sounds corny, was because it was a service they were extending to at least some of their users. And as many people have pointed out in many forums, Apple is not noted for the service they provide to users who are not Fortune 500 corporations. No flame intended here. I feel that Apple does more on our campus to get information out to users than does that other company. Just repeating an often heard criticism of Apple. Now, it may be that Apple decided it was too expensive for them to use some of their resources to make HyperCard available to an admittedly small group of net users. I don't know. However, I would like to know. So, my request to Apple would be to give us an explanation for why this scheme was abandoned. In reality, this request is directed to those employees at Apple who may know why this project was abandoned. Maybe if the official explanation could be posted, then we won't spend a lot of time flaming Apple for not providing HC 2.0 via ftp. I know that I for one will reserve my opinions on this action until I obtain more information. Thank you to anyone at Apple who is listening. Again, none of this is intended to be a flame of either Apple the corporation or any individuals at Apple. Scott D. Camp Q8N@PSUVM.PSU.EDU The Pennsylvania State University 305 Oswald Tower University Park, PA 16802 814-863-0121
emery@linus.mitre.org (David Emery) (09/10/90)
It would be useful to know where within Apple we should send our cards and letters of protest. We'll save our bullets for them... dave emery emery@aries.mitre.org
msmiller@gonzoville.Eng.Sun.COM (Mark Miller) (09/10/90)
In article <44630@apple.Apple.COM>, jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) writes: |> |>The decision has been made here not to make HyperCard 2.0 available via |>ftp. Neither will it be available for downloading on any of the commercial |>online services. |> |>I very much regret the inconvenience this will cause many of you and the |>delay in getting 2.0 into your hands. |> |>None of us who are regular readers of this newsgroup had anything to do |>with the decision. We're just the engineers... |> |>Kevin Calhoun |>Software engineer |>Apple Computer I just hope your higher-ups realize the damage they're doing. It will take years before people ever again believe a ship date for Apple software - that is, when a date is given - which ain't even happening now. The only thing worse than being constantly given later and later ship dates is being given no ship dates whatsoever. Putting HC 2.0 on public download sites probably wouldn't have helped Apple's reputation much, but keeping it off just aggrivates an already impatient public. -MSM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mark S. Miller "Different "In a nation ruled by swine, UUCP: msmiller@Sun.COM things all pigs are upward mobile." GEnie/AOL: MSMILLER vary" - Hunter S. Thompson
heather@merlin.bcm.tmc.edu (Heather Mayor) (09/11/90)
I think Apple is making a big mistake in not making hypercard 2.0 available by anonymous ftp to the small but knowledgeable and certainly supportive group of users involved. I wonder if they will continue to be so supportive in the future? heather@merlin.bcm.tmc.edu
matt@MAPS.CS.CMU.EDU (Matthew Diamond) (09/11/90)
In article <2577@east.East.Sun.COM>, msmiller@gonzoville.Eng.Sun.COM (Mark Miller) writes: |> |> I just hope your higher-ups realize the damage they're doing. It will |> take years before people ever again believe a ship date for Apple |> software - that is, when a date is given - which ain't even happening |> now. The only thing worse than being constantly given later and later |> ship dates is being given no ship dates whatsoever. |> I'm kinda peeved too-- BUT: I remember the fuss on one of the games bboards over Ultima VI, which was very buggy when released. "Why oh why couldn't they wait 6 months," everyone said. "As responsible consumers we must encourage quality in software products, reward those companies who take the time to put out working software, even if we have to wait longer, etc." Here we are, doing the exact opposite. Now, not many people here were posting over there, but I think many people share the view that we should encourage companies not to release products that they KNOW has bugs, just because they can patch it up later. The people who pay are the users who lose time/data dealing with the buggy programs, even if they get a fixed version later. Here's what I'm trying to say. YES, it would be nice if Apple told us what the delay was about (bugs, marketing decision, what?). YES, I think Apple should put it on the net when it comes out. YES, they should give us an idea as to how long a delay we're looking at (weeks, couple months, 1/2 year?). NO, Apple should not feel pressured to cite an exact date. ABOVE ALL, **NO** we should not pressure Apple to release software which obviously just isn't ready yet. Because if they do, we'll be the first complaining about the bugs. In other words, be careful what you wish for, you might get it. Matthew Diamond matt@maps.cs.cmu.edu
jon@gara.une.oz.au (Jonathan Burne CCEN) (09/11/90)
In article <44630@apple.Apple.COM>, jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) writes: > > The decision has been made here not to make HyperCard 2.0 available via > ftp. Neither will it be available for downloading on any of the commercial > online services. > I am disappointed at this decision but I can see some reasons for it. Apple is now a very big company and HyperCard is an important product. There must be enormous pressure within Apple to distribute HC 2 in the conventional manner, ie: disks and manual at a price through the dealer network. I also believe that the average HyperCard scriptor will need a new manual to cover the changes in HC 2. It would have been great to see HC 2 available to FTP :-( Jonathan Burne Mac Support Computer Centre University of New England Armidale 2351 Australia
moore@cs.washington.edu (Charles Moore) (09/11/90)
In article <2577@east.East.Sun.COM>, msmiller@gonzoville.Eng.Sun.COM (Mark Miller) writes: > > It will > take years before people ever again believe a ship date for Apple > software - that is, when a date is given - which ain't even happening > now. The only thing worse than being constantly given later and later > ship dates is being given no ship dates whatsoever. I respectfully disagree. The standard in the industry has been to always provide a ship date which almost invariably slips and usually slips by a lot. Software development being the art (not science) that it is, it is not possible to set a reliable ship date until the product is quite near completion. Even then, the probability is high that you will be wrong since "quite near completion" is itself a matter of belief. If, however, a company provides a ship date, outsiders will likely believe that date (to a greater or lesser extent) and begin to make plans around it. Then, when that date slips, they will be hurt because their plans will fail. If, on the other hand, a company announces no ship date, it effectively tells all outside parties that they should make no plans that depend on the date of availability of the product. In this latter case, no damage to outsiders will result from the vagaries of the software development process. I applaud Apple for (at least initially) taking the latter approach with System 7.0. "Sometime in the 1990's" is the kind of ship date that nobody should have been tempted to build potentially damaging plans around. Charles Moore
lnk10562@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (09/11/90)
Has everyone forgotten that HyperCard _is_ a commercial software product, and not system software? System code has been released through online channels in the past, like Compu$erve, but this is something people pay money for. I don't see Claris publishing new versions of MacWrite and MacPaint electronically, or any software pubisher for that matter. Just because HC is bundled with each new Mac doesn't mean everyone is retroactively entitled to it. What Apple _could_ do is release an upgrade kit that somehow transforms HC 1.x into 2.0. That way people who already own HC and are entitled to the upgrade can get it. BTW, will the 1.x->2.0 upgrade be free at Apple dealers if we bring in our disks? Something makes me feel the answer is no...hmmmmm... Louis Koziarz University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign koziarz@uiuc.edu
msmiller@gonzoville.Eng.Sun.COM (Mark Miller) (09/12/90)
In article <13000@june.cs.washington.edu>, moore@cs.washington.edu (Charles Moore) writes: |>In article <2577@east.East.Sun.COM>, msmiller@gonzoville.Eng.Sun.COM (Mark Miller) writes: |>> |>> It will |>> take years before people ever again believe a ship date for Apple |>> software - that is, when a date is given - which ain't even happening |>> now. The only thing worse than being constantly given later and later |>> ship dates is being given no ship dates whatsoever. |> |>I respectfully disagree. The standard in the industry has been to |>always provide a ship date which almost invariably slips and usually |>slips by a lot. |> [...] |>If, however, a company provides a ship date, outsiders will likely |>believe that date (to a greater or lesser extent) and begin to make |>plans around it. Then, when that date slips, they will be hurt |>because their plans will fail. These two bits contradict themselves. If the "standard" is to have useless ship dates, why would anyone believe them in the first place. However, your phrasing pretty much proves my point: "... a ship date which almost invariably slips ..." You don't believe they can ship on time, the damage is done. -MSM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mark S. Miller "Different "In a nation ruled by swine, UUCP: msmiller@Sun.COM things all pigs are upward mobile." GEnie/AOL: MSMILLER vary" - Hunter S. Thompson
mrx@dhw68k.cts.com (Mark Murphy) (09/13/90)
In article <2577@east.East.Sun.COM> msmiller@Sun.COM (Mark Miller) writes: >I just hope your higher-ups realize the damage they're doing. It will >take years before people ever again believe a ship date for Apple >software - that is, when a date is given - which ain't even happening >now. The only thing worse than being constantly given later and later >ship dates is being given no ship dates whatsoever. I don't think anyone has believed an Apple ship date for quite some time now. Apple has consistantly missed ship dates on most releases. My attitude with Apple is "when it's shipped, it's shipped! Not until then!". In other words, don't loose sleep over the fact that Apple hasn't shipped something yet! Just kick back, relax, and wait... wait... wait... then be happy when you have it! mark mrx@dhw68k.cts.com
jkc@apple.com (John Kevin Calhoun) (09/21/90)
Here's today's press release regarding HyperCard 2.0:
APPLE ANNOUNCES TRANSFER OF HYPERCARD TO CLARIS
CUPERTINO, California -- September 20, 1990 -- Apple Computer, Inc. today
announced that it has transferred responsibility for development, marketing,
distribution and support of its HyperCard software product to its wholly-owned
subsidiary Claris Corporation. This move follows Apple's decision last June to
keep Claris as an independent subsidiary.
Claris will label, distribute and support HyperCard in the U.S. beginning
in November 1990. The first broad U.S. distribution of the new HyperCard 2.0 --
which contains more than 100 new features for greater flexibility and ease of
use -- will be as a Claris product.
HyperCard and its current and future users will benefit from Claris
customer support and more aggressive development and marketing. International
markets will be evaluated and, where appropriate, implemented case-by-case.
A version of HyperCard 2.0, which will run existing HyperCard stacks and
new HyperCard 2.0 stacks, will continue to be shipped with every Macintosh
computer.
A complete HyperCard 2.0 authoring system, necessary for developing
stacks, will be sold by Claris.
Claris will offer low-cost upgrades to the installed base of HyperCard
customers in November. All current distribution agreements with user
groups and third-party developers will be honored. Starting next year,
distribution agreements will be made with Claris. Beginning with the
transition, Claris will also offer customer support to all users who have
purchased the Claris-labeled
HyperCard 2.0.
"The transfer of HyperCard will be a positive move for all parties," said
Randy Battat, vice president of worldwide product marketing for Apple
Computer. "Customers will benefit from the new support available to them
through Claris, and the active development of new HyperCard stacks; developers
will appreciate the aggressive Claris marketing programs resulting in expanded
customer acceptance and ultimately
many exciting new HyperCard solutions."
John Zeisler, Claris marketing vice president, said, "HyperCard is an
important first step in Claris's new focus on turning software into a strategic
advantage for Apple. We're excited about new ways to enrich Apple's software
development environment and promote the creation of innovative Macintosh
applications."
HyperCard 2.0, announced in June, 1990, will provide users with easy
access to the power of Macintosh computer programming, and greater flexibility
to manage and create information, using virtually any type of media. Among the
easiest to use and learn programming tools for personal computers, HyperCard
2.0 is expected to appeal to beginners who can put it to work immediately, and
to corporate and commercial developers, for whom it is a more powerful
development environment than ever. HyperCard 2.0 features an entirely new set
of ready-to-use and example stacks for storing personal and business
information, and creating graphics and charts.
Apple, Macintosh, and HyperCard are registered trademarks of Apple Computer,
Inc.
Claris is a registered trademark of Claris Corporation.ollef@sics.se (Olle Furberg) (09/21/90)
In <44987@apple.Apple.COM> jkc@apple.com (John Kevin Calhoun) writes: >Here's today's press release regarding HyperCard 2.0: (---) > A version of HyperCard 2.0, which will run existing HyperCard stacks and >new HyperCard 2.0 stacks, will continue to be shipped with every Macintosh >computer. > A complete HyperCard 2.0 authoring system, necessary for developing >stacks, will be sold by Claris. Does this mean that we are going to have two versions of HC: HC-runtime and HC-development, the former semi-PD and the latter strict commercial? What configurations could be done in a stack with the "free" version of HC? /Olle
emery@linus.mitre.org (David Emery) (09/21/90)
Well, the great experiment is over, and we lose. From the Press Release: > A version of HyperCard 2.0, which will run existing HyperCard stacks and >new HyperCard 2.0 stacks, will continue to be shipped with every Macintosh >computer. > A complete HyperCard 2.0 authoring system, necessary for developing >stacks, will be sold by Claris. The original notion of HyperCard was "a tool for the rest of us", with everything included with the Mac. Now it's "a reader for the rest of us", with "money to Claris to do any development", thus negating the whole idea of an infinitely-modifiable authoring system for every Mac user. It was interesting while it lasted. I think I'll wait for a GNU version of Hyper-<whatever>, which will really live up to the promise of HyperCard as a real authoring system "for the rest of us". Shame on you, Apple!! dave emery emery@aries.mitre.org
wilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) (09/21/90)
In article <1990Sep20.191814.455@sics.se> ollef@sics.se (Olle Furberg) writes: >In <44987@apple.Apple.COM> jkc@apple.com (John Kevin Calhoun) writes: > > > >Here's today's press release regarding HyperCard 2.0: > (---) > > A version of HyperCard 2.0, which will run existing HyperCard stacks and > >new HyperCard 2.0 stacks, will continue to be shipped with every Macintosh > >computer. > > A complete HyperCard 2.0 authoring system, necessary for developing > >stacks, will be sold by Claris. > > >Does this mean that we are going to have two versions of HC: HC-runtime and >HC-development, the former semi-PD and the latter strict commercial? > >What configurations could be done in a stack with the "free" version of HC? > > /Olle On this matter: I was seeded with HyperCard 2.0 beta and have worked extensively with it. Nothing ever indicated that the implied move would take place. Today, I called the Apple Developer Hotline and expressed my concerns about what this would do to the HyperCard environment and its usefulness. The person at the Hotline expressed that they had received no information about this beyond the press release, even to the point of an internal HC 2.0 briefing last week not mentioning this move. After expressing my concerns, the Hotline person indicated that she would talk to a couple of internal contacts she had and would Link me back with a clarification of what is to happen. Further, she indicated that if they actually mean to take scripting capability away from the causal user, she said that she would assist in preparing a complaint and direct it to the office of the appropriate person. I will keep the Net up to date on what they tell me. However, I recommend that anyone who finds this disturbing phone up Apple themselves. The main Apple switchboard, for those who don't know, is 1-(408)-996-1010. Ask for "customer service" which will probably get you a drone with a list of Apple dealers. Then, tell the person on the other end that you wish to make a complaint. The point is that it may not be clear to the decision-makers how useless this makes HyperCard. If you help out by making it clear, there may be time to make a change. -- Mark Wilkins P.S. Please don't flame Apple until more info is available. The DevHotline person indicated that this may just mean that an advanced developer toolkit is available, not that scripting is being taken away from the user. P.P.S. The above, however, is not how I read it.
chuq@Apple.COM (The Wandering Phew) (09/21/90)
emery@linus.mitre.org (David Emery) writes: >Well, the great experiment is over, and we lose. Well, yet another Net.Expert goes off half-cocked based on incomplete information and a can't-wait-to-bash-Apple attitude. Feh >Shame on you, Apple!! Shame on you. What the facts are is that there is *one* hypercard. The difference in the versions is that on some of the lower end products, the ability to get out of browsing mode will be hidden. Not gone, hidden -- to protect someone who hasn't figured things out yet won't get themselves in deep trouble. Some of the authoring stacks -- the Ideas stuff -- won't be included as well (but are generally available if you decide you want them). Yet another mindless flame. I guess if people can't find legitimate reasons to flame us, they'll go make them up from hearsay. Next thing you know, National Enquirer will start their own Macintosh section. I don't know why I bother. People are so happy to be judge and jury around here. Sorry to throw a few facts on the fire. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> chuq@apple.com <+> [This is myself speaking] mumble..mumble...mumble...mumbleLemieuxSCORE!!!!!!!...mumble...mumble..mumble
wilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) (09/21/90)
In article <8537@jarthur.Claremont.EDU> wilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) writes: > I will keep the Net up to date on what they tell me. However, I recommend >that anyone who finds this disturbing phone up Apple themselves. > > The main Apple switchboard, for those who don't know, is 1-(408)-996-1010. >Ask for "customer service" which will probably get you a drone with a list >of Apple dealers. Then, tell the person on the other end that you wish to >make a complaint. Before you all flame me, I want to make clear that Chuq is RIGHT! Please don't do this until you know the facts, and only then if you are still dissatisfied! Remember that a single press-release in vague terms tells us very little about what will actually happen. And by the way, sorry if I seemed to be advocating jumping the gun. That wasn't my intention. -- Mark Wilkins
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (09/21/90)
------- In article <44996@apple.Apple.COM>, chuq@Apple.COM (The Wandering Phew) writes... >emery@linus.mitre.org (David Emery) writes: > >>Well, the great experiment is over, and we lose. > >Well, yet another Net.Expert goes off half-cocked based on incomplete >information and a can't-wait-to-bash-Apple attitude. Feh > >>Shame on you, Apple!! > >Shame on you. What the facts are is that there is *one* hypercard. The >difference in the versions is that on some of the lower end products, the >ability to get out of browsing mode will be hidden. Not gone, hidden -- to >protect someone who hasn't figured things out yet won't get themselves in >deep trouble. Some of the authoring stacks -- the Ideas stuff -- won't be >included as well (but are generally available if you decide you want them). > >Yet another mindless flame. I guess if people can't find legitimate reasons >to flame us, they'll go make them up from hearsay. Next thing you know, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >National Enquirer will start their own Macintosh section. No no no. I think that _this_ time the "flamers" had a point. I'm usually an "anti-flamer", and I'm sick of people dumping on Apple. But read the press release: " A version of HyperCard 2.0, which will run existing HyperCard stacks and new HyperCard 2.0 stacks, will continue to be shipped with every Macintosh computer. A complete HyperCard 2.0 authoring system, necessary for developing stacks, will be sold by Claris. " C'mon, be fair. What does it sound like? A version of HC 2.0 "which will run...stacks, will continue to be shipped with every Macintosh computer." OK, why the word "run"? To emphasize that it will run 1.0 and 2.0 stacks? OK, but it could also be legitimately be read as a run-time version, particularly when directly followed by "A complete HyperCard 2.0 authoring system, necessary for developing stacks, will be sold by Claris." Look at that last line again: "...necessary for developing stacks..." After reading your post, Chuq, I understand what Apple's doing, but what do the words say to someone who doesn't already know the plan? That you will _need_ (necessary!) Claris' kit to do stack development. So I think any objective observer could have gotten the wrong impression. I think Apple's press release authors are at fault, and they should perhaps practice a bit more next time. That having been said, I think people need to give Apple the benefit of the doubt more often. But I also think Apple has to regain some of the good will it's squandered by questionable actions in the past few years (remember them _raising_ Mac prices a couple of years ago??). Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
dlong@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (09/21/90)
My first reaction to this press release was negative- I was afraid Apple had
fallen into the same trap that Microsoft/Asymmetrix have with Toolbook...
that is, restricting authorship of stacks to those willing to pay extra.
If, as Chuq says, the ability to author is merely *hidden* in the regular
release, this should not create many problems; people who are curious will
still be able to experiment without making an extra monetary commitment.
I think folks here on the net have realized, a system does not become a
lingua franca if only some of the participants can speak (author) in it!
What is unclear in my mind right now is just how the Claris "authoring"
version of HyperCard will be different. Will it include extra stacks,
more manuals? What will the standard version include? (i.e., will the
standard version include just the "User's Guide", and the authoring
version also include the "beginners guide to scripting"?)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
dave long dlong@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
research programmer dlong@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu
computing services office AppleLink: A0377
university of illinois
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists
elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us"
-Calvin
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^jdevoto@Apple.COM (Jeanne A. E. DeVoto) (09/21/90)
In article <44996@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (The Wandering Phew) writes: >Well, yet another Net.Expert goes off half-cocked based on incomplete >information and a can't-wait-to-bash-Apple attitude. Feh > >Shame on you. What the facts are is that there is *one* hypercard. The >difference in the versions is that on some of the lower end products, the >ability to get out of browsing mode will be hidden. Not gone, hidden -- to >protect someone who hasn't figured things out yet won't get themselves in >deep trouble. Some of the authoring stacks -- the Ideas stuff -- won't be >included as well (but are generally available if you decide you want them). > >Yet another mindless flame. I guess if people can't find legitimate reasons >to flame us, they'll go make them up from hearsay. Next thing you know, >National Enquirer will start their own Macintosh section. > >I don't know why I bother. People are so happy to be judge and jury around >here. Sorry to throw a few facts on the fire. Whoah, Chuq. I have no doubt that you know what you're talking about, but >> A complete HyperCard 2.0 authoring system, necessary for >> developing stacks, will be sold by Claris. this excerpt from the press release indicates pretty clearly that purchase of a package from Claris will be necessary for those wishing to do stack development. Maybe the press release was worded clumsily. But it's not at all unreasonable to draw from it the conclusion that Apple will no longer be bundling an application capable of creating and modifying HyperCard stacks. Now, that may not turn out to be true when all the facts are in. But it's not "hearsay", it's not mindless, and it doesn't deserve getting out the oxy-acetylene torch for. -- ========= jeanne a. e. devoto ======================================== jdevoto@apple.com | You may not distribute this article under a jdevoto@well.sf.ca.us | compilation copyright without my permission. ______________________________________________________________________ Apple Computer and I are not authorized | CI$: 72411,165 to speak for each other. |
jonu@FtCollins.NCR.com (Jon Udell) (09/21/90)
In article <1990Sep20.191814.455@sics.se> ollef@sics.se (Olle Furberg) writes: > In <44987@apple.Apple.COM> jkc@apple.com (John Kevin Calhoun) writes: > >Here's today's press release regarding HyperCard 2.0: > (---) > > A version of HyperCard 2.0, which will run existing HyperCard stacks and > >new HyperCard 2.0 stacks, will continue to be shipped with every Macintosh > >computer. > > A complete HyperCard 2.0 authoring system, necessary for developing > >stacks, will be sold by Claris. > Does this mean that we are going to have two versions of HC: HC-runtime and > HC-development, the former semi-PD and the latter strict commercial? > What configurations could be done in a stack with the "free" version of HC? I was wondering the same thing. However if this is the case, the statement >HyperCard 2.0 is expected to appeal to beginners who can put it to >work immediately, and to corporate and commercial developers, for whom >it is a more powerful development environment than ever. is a bit of a contradiction. Unless, of course, they expect that only "corporate and commercial developers" are going to try to program with Hypercard. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Udell NCR Microelectronics Products Division Jon.Udell@FtCollins.NCR.COM 2057 Vermont uunet!ncrlnk!ncr-mpd!ncr-fc!jonu Fort Collins, CO 80525 (303) 223-5100 X431 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jtt@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (James T. Tanis) (09/21/90)
Why flame anybody? Since they will be charging extra for the developer's version, now they can include a few things HC needs - debugger manual compiler Maybe the proud owners of the developer's version will even be entitled to some sort of support, at least in the form of tech notes? On the other hand, the only nice thing claris has ever done is public folder, and that always crashes my machine..... -JT
emery@linus.mitre.org (David Emery) (09/21/90)
Normally I agree with Chuq. This time I don't. HyperCard's strength came from two facts: 1. It came free with the machine. 2. Everything was included. This encouraged non-programmers to experiment with developing stacks, as well as using them. The press release implies (damn well states) that the second condition no longer holds. I still think this is bad. >Chuq: >What the facts are is that there is *one* hypercard. The difference >in the versions is that on some of the lower end products, the ability >to get out of browsing mode will be hidden. As long as there are multiple versions, there are multiple HyperCards. Period. >Not gone, hidden -- to protect someone who hasn't figured things out >yet won't get themselves in deep trouble. So now the "computer for the rest of us" has to protect us from ourselves? Ugh! Besides, does "hidden" still mean "accessable"? I don't understand the difference here. Either it's there or it's not. If it's there, then what is Claris selling? I've been a user of Personal Computers since the TRS-80 I bought back in 1978, so I consider myself a very well informed consumer. Over the years I've had two problems with Apple. One is the basic cost of their hardware, and the other is their propensity for sueing on look-and-feel. On the other hand, my wife has a Mac at work and at home, I use them them at work, and we might buy another Mac for home. So I don't consider myself a "mindless Apple-basher", but I will stand up and say something when I think Apple (or anyone else) does it wrong. dave emery emery@aries.mitre.org
heather@merlin.bcm.tmc.edu (Heather Mayor) (09/21/90)
I don't think we should read too much into the recent Apple press release. With Apple's interest in the academic market and the great array of useful hypercard stacks produced by academics and others using hypercard 1 I don't believe that authoring will be a difficult and costly process once Hypercard 2 is actually available for distribution to the rest of us! Heather D. Mayor ( heather@merlin.bcm.tmc.edu)
brindle (Jack Brindle) (09/22/90)
In article <44996@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (The Wandering Phew) writes: > >Yet another mindless flame. I guess if people can't find legitimate reasons >to flame us, they'll go make them up from hearsay. Next thing you know, >National Enquirer will start their own Macintosh section. > Gee. I thought they already did. Isn't it called MacWeek? :-). - Jack B.
tv0c+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Edward Van Lenten) (09/22/90)
I have to jump in on Apple's side in this case also. I have two points; 1-Since when have you see a press release the read exactly as you though. The press release is just a little note and a tease, as with all things we have to wait and see what the final release is when more info comes. The other is this, Apple did not ship everything that you needed to be able to script with Hypercard, it you remember they gave you the Hypercard into book, and then told you what else you had to buy to be able to program. Yea, you could jump in and just try things, and you most likely will be able to do that again. But of the information to do really powerful scripts and to write externals, you will have to buy something else. Time will tell, just hold on and see what finally gets out. Who knows, as a result of the handing over of HyperCard we may see the program grow just like MacWrite did. (After all, MacWrite II is a huge step ahead of MacWrite) TVL -or-Tom Van Lenten tv0c@andrew.cmu.edu bitnet%"tv0c@andrew"
hpoppe@ncar.ucar.edu (Herb Poppe) (09/24/90)
In article <EMERY.90Sep21105954@aries.linus.mitre.org> emery@linus.mitre.org (David Emery) writes: > >Chuq: > >Not gone, hidden -- to protect someone who hasn't figured things out > >yet won't get themselves in deep trouble. > > So now the "computer for the rest of us" has to protect us from > ourselves? Ugh! Besides, does "hidden" still mean "accessable"? I > don't understand the difference here. Either it's there or it's not. Have people forgotten that scripting has always been hidden in HyperCard? It has always been the case that one had to go into the Home stack and click on "Scripting" to make this feature accessible. Herb Poppe hpoppe@ncar.ucar.edu NCAR (303) 497-1296 1850 Table Mesa Dr. Boulder, CO 80307-3000
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (09/24/90)
chuq@Apple.COM (The Wandering Phew) writes: >What the facts are is that there is *one* hypercard. Hmm. What I said is true -- as far as it goes. A little birdie has told me, however, that Claris IS thinking of, long term, having separate runtime and authoring systems. So what I said is true -- for now. Later? Who knows? what I said was true for the short term. The long term issues turn out to be unclear. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> chuq@apple.com <+> [This is myself speaking] mumble..mumble...mumble...mumbleLemieuxSCORE!!!!!!!...mumble...mumble..mumble
kenk@tellabs.com (Ken Konecki) (09/25/90)
In article <44987@apple.Apple.COM> jkc@apple.com (John Kevin Calhoun) writes: > A version of HyperCard 2.0, which will run existing HyperCard stacks and >new HyperCard 2.0 stacks, will continue to be shipped with every Macintosh >computer. > A complete HyperCard 2.0 authoring system, necessary for developing >stacks, will be sold by Claris. According to a Claris spokesperson quoted in MacWeek, there will be 2 versions of Hypercard. The version shipped with all Macs will not be able to do scripting, but the version you (of course) shell out dollars for will be fully functional. So what's the truth here? Is Chuq telling us the truth, or is Claris telling us the real story? Cheers, -Ken K -- Ken Konecki "Eat well, stay fit, and die anyway" e-mail:kenk@tellabs.com -or- ...!uunet!tellab5!kenk U.S. Mail: 1271 Portchester Circle, Carol Stream, IL 60188
chuq@Apple.COM (The Wandering Phew) (09/26/90)
kenk@tellabs.com (Ken Konecki) writes: >In article <44987@apple.Apple.COM> jkc@apple.com (John Kevin Calhoun) writes: >So what's the truth here? Is Chuq telling us the truth, or is Claris >telling us the real story? I was telling the truth for 2.0. What Claris does later may well be different, and as far as I can tell, they're telling the truth for that. 2.0 is 2.0 is 2.0 -- but 2.?? is still being looked at. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> chuq@apple.com <+> [This is myself speaking] mumble..mumble...mumble...mumbleLemieuxSCORE!!!!!!!...mumble...mumble..mumble
mrfung@nada.kth.se (Lars-Erik Fredriksson) (09/26/90)
C'mon Chuck, We know you always like to break news to us but now you seem to be throwing dust in our eyes! you say: > I was telling the truth for 2.0. What Claris does later may well be > different, and as far as I can tell, they're telling the truth for that. 2.0 > is 2.0 is 2.0 -- but 2.?? is still being looked at. what is it you really *know* 'cause if 2.0 is never shipped to anyone it really does not matter if there is only *one* version of it! If you *really* know something speak up and if you don't the info about 2.0 is very esotheric and I regard your argument as mere sophistic acrobatics if it is really only discussing an interrim compiled version that will never hit the users! If you know something profound about this then please talk clearly and don't just try to cover up for something you blurted out just because you were hoping or whatever. Too much fairypowder? When you wish upon a card! I like to express my sympathy for the developers of Hypercard who must feel terrible after having worked soo hard to finally get 2.0 ready and still will have to wait for some time to hear the cheers of the amazed crowd of people still waiting to put their hands on 2.0. It is not fair to them and not to us because a lot of good work could already have been done using the final version of 2.0 and it is really a tremendous improvement over the 1.2.5 and earlier versions! I really hope this gets solved *quickly* or lots of goodwill will be lost for Apple. The only real solution if Claris wants to make a buck on it is to ship what is ready and then make an attractive developers package with loads of XCMD's and samplescripts and code and *good* documentation that people would want to buy anyhow even thou they get the uncrippled version! mrfung has spoken!
kdb@macaw.intercon.com (Kurt Baumann) (09/26/90)
In article <3920@tellab5.tellabs.com>, kenk@tellabs.com (Ken Konecki) writes: > According to a Claris spokesperson quoted in MacWeek, there will be 2 > versions of Hypercard. The version shipped with all Macs will not be able > to do scripting, but the version you (of course) shell out dollars for > will be fully functional. And so it goes. Mark this one on your calanders boys and girls, this is the day that Apple has finally shot themselves in their feet. The power, usefulness, whatever, of HC was that EVERYONE had it and could change stacks to their own liking... Now of course it looks like this is all in the past. It is also interesting to note that almost all of the "big" HC developers/publishers are no more. Putting a runtime version out that is "free" is about as intelligent as putting a runtime basic out, and about as useful. Whatever happened to "software" for the masses? It's not for the masses if you have to pay for a development system, and its not friendly if people consider it to be a developer only package... -- Kurt Baumann InterCon Systems Corporation 703.709.9890 Creators of fine TCP/IP products 703.709.9896 FAX for the Macintosh.
ollef@sics.se (Olle Furberg) (09/26/90)
In <gayecmC00UzxI3o45p@andrew.cmu.edu> tv0c+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Edward Van Lenten) writes: >as a result of the handing over of HyperCard we may see the program grow >just like MacWrite did. (After all, MacWrite II is a huge step ahead of >MacWrite) On the other hand, MacWrite II is not every mans property as MacWrite was when it was shipped with every Mac. Still the old MacWrite format is the lowest common divisor for exchanging formatted text on the Mac. Degrading the "free" HC to a runtime version could make the old HC-format to the lowest common divisor for HC-stacks changeable by the user.
Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) (09/26/90)
In article <1990Sep26.004233.25633@nada.kth.se>, mrfung@nada.kth.se (Lars-Erik Fredriksson) says: > >C'mon Chuck, > >We know you always like to break news to us but now you seem to be >throwing dust in our eyes! > >you say: > >> I was telling the truth for 2.0. What Claris does later may well be >> different, and as far as I can tell, they're telling the truth for that. 2.0 >> is 2.0 is 2.0 -- but 2.?? is still being looked at. > >what is it you really *know* 'cause if 2.0 is never shipped to anyone >it really does not matter if there is only *one* version of it! Actually, HC 2.0 has been given to my university for public distribution. It is a free upgrade, takes 5 800K floppies (of course, the 'tour' takes one of these five), and appears to be a really good product. I think the HC development team deserves a lot of credit. Of course, you don't get the manuals with this type of upgrade, but then there is a HyperTalk reference stack that helps alleviate this need if you also have some of the popular HyperCard 2.0 books. Even though I have HC 2.0, I have no idea of which 'version' I possess. However, I can assure you that it is completely scriptable (is that a word?). So, I would assume that Chuq is correct in stating that HC 2.0 has only one real version and the differences announced in the press release are not substantial for 2.0. But as Chuq notes, who knows about release 2.x. I too would like to see some clear word coming from Apple on what they mean in their rather terse and confusing press release. If they are planning (Apple, Claris, or whoever) to pursue a path of making users pay for the full functionality of HC in future releases, then I definitely add my voice of protest. If this is not the plan, then why was HC handed over to Claris? I would assume that Claris cannot count the overhead for developing HC off against the sales of Macs in another division of the company. I guess what I'm saying is that the changes look ominous for the future of HC remaining a 'free' part of the system software. Normally, I would not care to speculate, but I feel forced to so my opinion can be heard before the decision becomes written in granite (if it hasn't already). Scott D. Camp Q8N@PSUVM.PSU.EDU The Pennsylvania State University 305 Oswald Tower University Park, PA 16802 814-863-0121
dragon@hubcap.clemson.edu (Michael E. Quattlebaum) (09/26/90)
In article <270006A8.3DB6@intercon.com>, kdb@macaw.intercon.com (Kurt Baumann) writes: > In article <3920@tellab5.tellabs.com>, kenk@tellabs.com (Ken Konecki) writes: > > According to a Claris spokesperson quoted in MacWeek, there will be 2 > > versions of Hypercard. The version shipped with all Macs will not be able > > to do scripting, but the version you (of course) shell out dollars for > > will be fully functional. > > And so it goes. Mark this one on your calanders boys and girls, this is > the day that Apple has finally shot themselves in their feet. The power, > usefulness, whatever, of HC was that EVERYONE had it and could change stacks > to their own liking... > > Now of course it looks like this is all in the past. It is also interesting > to note that almost all of the "big" HC developers/publishers are no more. > > Putting a runtime version out that is "free" is about as intelligent as > putting a runtime basic out, and about as useful. Bravo. I agree with this completely. The entire idea behind Hypercard was to give power to the user (the entire philosophy of Macintosh and Apple). Suddenly we have Apple taking away that power that was given us. Making Hypercard scripting available only through the purchase of a special version is rediculous. I would not mind paying for HC 2.0, but please, folks, keep it intact! What will be next? Will they convert the Mac OS to DOS format (an extreme example, I admit). Keep with your philosophy and continue giving power to the user. That's what you're best at. Do you hear me, Apple? By the way, my opinions are my own, especially on this issue. Michael Quattlebaum Apple Student Rep Clemson University Internet: dragon@hubcap.clemson.edu Bitnet: DRAGON@CLEMSON.BITNET AppleLink: ST0673
clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) (09/26/90)
In article <1990Sep13.152439.15192@dhw68k.cts.com> mrx@dhw68k.cts.com (Mark Murphy) writes: >In article <2577@east.East.Sun.COM> msmiller@Sun.COM (Mark Miller) writes: >>I just hope your higher-ups realize the damage they're doing. It will >>take years before people ever again believe a ship date for Apple >>software > > I don't think anyone has believed an Apple ship date for quite some time >now. Apple has consistantly missed ship dates on most releases. I don't believe Apple ship dates, Microsoft ship dates, Ashton-Tate ship dates, or for that matter anyone's ship dates. If I get when they say, it's a welcome surprise. If not, it's par for the course. chaz -- -- "I Am The Reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln", Insists Prince. -spew clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu AOL:Crowbone
jgsmith@watson.bcm.tmc.edu (James G. Smith) (09/27/90)
I just wanted to express my sympathy to the HyperCard engineers. I can just imagine them working feverishly on this project for a year or more, and then when release time comes near and the bugs crop up they have to throw in that last 10% (to make 110%) while listening to us wimper (because we want it SOOOOO bad). I can imagine the sweat, but also the commaraderie (sp?) of being on a team which is producing something not only of special quality, but of unique vision: development software for the user, for everyone who recognizes the iportance of this development (some, alas, don't know what they have.) And then, in their moment of triumph, in anticipation of the chorus of cheers (I've seen what the books say 2.0 will do, but I don't cheer until I see it on my own computer) the powers on high sweep their child off to join the morass of other software lost in corporate development. How it must hurt to see those cheers choke in our throats Where is the vision that was Apple? * (Couldn't they just have released 2.0 and then said further development will be done by Claris?)
mrfung@nada.kth.se (Lars-Erik Fredriksson) (09/27/90)
Well this is getting *really* confusing
Is it true that it is OK to give HyperCard 2.0 away?
Is it only in Pennsylvania or does this apply to the whole world?
you say it comes on 5 discs If you are free to copy them are you
free to put them up for FTP. I have a distribution too but I was told
differently as nothing was final yet and I am real careful about it
as I don't want to upset anybody ( sorry Chuck maby I should not have
flamed you but who is "calm and placid when one is full of formic acid'
I mean everybody was upset so why not me ;-)
> Even though I have HC 2.0, I have no idea of which 'version' I possess.
What do you mean are you referring to some seeded site release of
beta- software or are you in fact talking about the 'Golden Master'
version 2.0 no betaversion I mean after b68 ( I think that was the
last beta ) No-one would seriously commit any *real* information to
be handled by a beta-version, right ;-)
So please put them up for FTP or send me a list of the stacks the creation-
dates and modification of the files of your 'virginal' 5 disks
and I can always say they came from Pennsylvania ;-)
What gives....
mr 'I can't stop scratching my head from bewilderment" funghankins@cs.swarthmore.edu (Luke Hankins) (09/27/90)
In <90269.104119Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> Scott D. Camp <Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> writes: >Actually, HC 2.0 has been given to my university for public distribution. It >is a free upgrade, takes 5 800K floppies (of course, the 'tour' takes one of >these five), and appears to be a really good product. I think the HC >development team deserves a lot of credit. Of course, you don't get the >manuals with this type of upgrade, but then there is a HyperTalk reference >stack that helps alleviate this need if you also have some of the popular >HyperCard 2.0 books. I've gotten some hands-on time here, as well. (not much, tho, aren't classes a pain in the patooka?) I was able to put the stuff I needed for exploring onto a 1.4K and an 800K. So far it looks really nice, kudos to the development team! -luke (And the HT reference stack is really well done, too...) -- ______________________________________________________________________________ Luke Hankins hankins@cs.swarthmore.edu |"I don't care anymore" -P Collins for(MyAge=0;!Dead;EnjoyLife); |"I'm here and here I'll stay" -SOC While not (EndOfLife) do Havefun(me); |"...stay sane inside insanity..." -RHPS
dak@mips.com (Dave Kearney) (09/27/90)
Is everyone enjoying the ride? Life in this industry sure is entertaining! I'm not going to speculate on what Apple/Claris is or is not going to do with HC 2.0. But I would like to make an observation. If there is one sure way to lose market share it is to create confusion and mixed messages about your products. What Apple is saying now and what it has said in the past is irrelevant if the perception in the PC industry is that Apple is inconsistant. It will be interesting to see if the IBM compatible industry uses this "change of direction" in an attack. In any case, Apple has succesfully confused the people on this net. Some would argue that this is not difficult. If we're confused, however, the general public will be lost. Chalk one up for IBM for winning a battle in which they didn't even fight. David A. Kearney MIPS Computer Systems, Inc. mips.com 950 DeGuigne Dr. Sunnyvale, CA 94086 +1 408 524-7025 = I'm not a fatalist... But even if I was, what could I do about it? =
Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) (09/27/90)
Let me provide a follow-up as my original posting seems to have created some confusion. First, I want to give a disclaimer up front. While I do work for Penn State, I am certainly not speaking for Penn State in any capacity, nor am I responsible for anything Penn State does. Second, I do not work for any computer group at Penn State in any capacity. I am a lecturer in sociology. In fact, I have never worked for the university's computer support groups, although I used to work for a support group in the College of Liberal Arts. Enough disclaimers, I think you get the message that this is me speaking. In article <1990Sep26.194219.6871@nada.kth.se>, mrfung@nada.kth.se (Lars-Erik Fredriksson) says: > >Well this is getting *really* confusing > >Is it true that it is OK to give HyperCard 2.0 away? >Is it only in Pennsylvania or does this apply to the whole world? I have no idea as to who is or is not eligible to receive a copy of HC 2.0. I'm even beginning to wonder if I'm supposed to have a copy. I think someone from Apple will have to answer this. >you say it comes on 5 discs If you are free to copy them are you >free to put them up for FTP. [stuff deleted] I can't speak for Apple, but I would certainly assume that you cannot make HyperCard available FTP. After all, remember that Apple nixed the idea of them doing this. > >> Even though I have HC 2.0, I have no idea of which 'version' I possess. > >What do you mean are you referring to some seeded site release of >beta- software or are you in fact talking about the 'Golden Master' >version 2.0 no betaversion I mean after b68 ( I think that was the >last beta ) No-one would seriously commit any *real* information to >be handled by a beta-version, right ;-) [stuff deleted] Right! This is not a beta version that I have received. The get info says that it is HyperCard 2.0: Created: Fri Aug 31, 1990, 3:14 PM Version: 2.0 c Apple Computer, Inc I was referring to I don't know which of the Claris (Apple?) versions I have. Is this the one for development, or the one that hides things from the user and may not come with all auxiliary stacks? >What gives.... I honestly don't know. >mr 'I can't stop scratching my head from bewilderment" fung Scott D. Camp Q8N@PSUVM.PSU.EDU The Pennsylvania State University 305 Oswald Tower University Park, PA 16802 814-863-0121
eclement@aragorn.inria.fr (Eric Clement) (09/27/90)
With this decision, Macintosh becomes more expensive : It's the only system that doesn't comes with a developpement environement. MS-DOS comes with BASICA, UNIX whith C and shell and Macintosh with nothing.... Just my 2cts contribution.
SAS102@psuvm.psu.edu (Steven A. Schrader) (09/27/90)
In article <90269.104119Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu>, Scott D. Camp <Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> says: > >these five), and appears to be a really good product. I think the HC I agree wholeheartedly. I saw the beta and they were good but buggy. Now, that I have HC 2.0 in my hinds I love it. It has so many features that it makes it really powerful. There are still suggestions I could make, but for now let's congradulate the HC 2.0 team on a fantastic product! >development team deserves a lot of credit. Of course, you don't get the ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven A. Schrader (SAS102 @ Psuvm.Bitnet) Student Consultant Coordinater Student Support Initiative, The Center for Academic Computing The Pennsylvania State University
jon@gara.une.oz.au (Jonathan Burne CCEN) (09/27/90)
I (occasionally) teach people about HyperCard and HyperTalk. I have seen what happens when the ordinary Mac user realises what her/she can do. It empowers them! It puts them in control! It enables them to do things the way they want to do them. Their Mac sings and dances to their tune. Isn't this what the Macintosh it is all about? I don't mind paying for a developer package that will give me some extra goodies but two versions of HyperCard is a really *bad* idea. Apple/Claris *PLEASE* get yourselves sorted out and quickly! Jon Burne Mac Support Computer Centre University of New England Armidale NSW 2351 AUSTRALIA
maller@applelink@apple.com (Steve Maller) (09/28/90)
Here is the latest word (paraphrased) from Mike Holm, Claris HyperCard Product Manager, as expressed in an online conversation Wednesday evening 26-Sep on CompuServe: CPU Boxes ---------------------- Beginning Real Soon Now, every new Macintosh CPU will contain one HyperCard disk, including the *FULL* HyperCard 2.0 application, a very simple Home stack with the buttons for Authoring, Painting and Scripting disabled, and Address stack, an Appointments stack, maybe another stack or two, and a 30-page (or so) welcome to HyperCard book/brochure. The reason given by the people who made the decision for the disabling of the userlevels above #2 is that they wanted to keep naive users from accidentally destroying their stacks. An experienced HyperCard user will notice that there is just an opaque button hiding the other userlevel selections. Upgrade Package ---------------------- Also beginning Real Soon Now, there will be a telephone number at Claris to call to order an upgrade package. According to Mr. Holm, you need to be able to spell your name, have a home address, say "HyperCard 2.0", and have (access to) a major credit card. For the $49 that Claris will charge you, you will receive four of the five 2.0 distribution disks (the HyperCard Tour is not included), and an as-yet undetermined amount of documentation. Mike says they want to ship the HyperCard Script Language Guide with the upgrades, and maybe that will be it, the rationale being that "upgraders" will already know the theory of operation, and will mainly want to start enhancing their stacks' capabilities. Mike stressed that the upgrade is only meant for 1.x users, but didn't say how this would be enforced. There also may be a time limit on the upgrade, but that also seems to be TBD. Full Package ---------------------- At some point in the not-too-distant future, there will be a fully shrink-wrapped Claris HyperCard package on dealers' shelves. Claris has not determined the retail pricing of the package. This may or may not coincide with the expiration of the upgrade deal, but that was not made clear. Also, there will be a full set of documentation with this product, and possibly additional items. Again, this is TBD. User Groups ---------------------- Unknown to many of you, there was recently a mass mailing of the release version of HyperCard 2.0 to all licensed User Groups. Any group with a HyperCard license from Apple Software Licensing should already have their disks. Many of you should be able to "upgrade" through this channel at far less than the $49 offer, and sooner, too. Check with your local User Group for more information. As you can read from this news, there will NOT be a "crippled" version of the HyperCard 2.0 application. All of your input and suggestions have been read, and are appreciated by all of us. I don't want to speak for Kevin, Martin, or any of the other members of the HyperCard team, but for my part, it makes me feel like a million bucks to know that you all care about the product enough to fight for what you feel is right. I think this plan will allow us to move on, and most importantly, all of you will finally get to start building some awesome stacks! Thanks! Steve Maller HyperCard Engineering Team Apple Computer ------------- I speak solely for myself in these matters
anthony@cs.adelaide.edu.au (Anthony Dunstan) (09/28/90)
In article <90270.081033SAS102@psuvm.psu.edu> SAS102@psuvm.psu.edu (Steven A. Schrader) writes: > ...let's congratulate the HC 2.0 team on a fantastic product!... I'd like to second that motion, HC has gained much needed flexibility with this well designed and well timed upgrade. Just one quick question: Is it Beta 50 of HC 2.0 thats gone Gold? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Anthony Dunstan University of Adelaide Apple Consortium | | A Macintosh CyberMan anthony@cs.adelaide.edu.au | ------------------------------------------------------------------------
geb@dsl.pitt.edu (Gordon E. Banks) (09/29/90)
This just proves once more that while apple attracts very creative and inventive programmers, those who make the marketing decisions are pure dorks! How many decisions have had to be hurriedly reversed after sales slumped or a great outcry was raised? I'm glad I've sold my Apple stock.
maller@applelink@apple.com (Steve Maller) (10/02/90)
In article <1529> anthony@cs.adelaide.edu.au (Anthony Dunstan) writes: > Just one quick question: > Is it Beta 50 of HC 2.0 thats gone Gold? Nope. B68 was the golden calf. Err, make that golden master... Steve Maller HyperCard Engineering Team Apple Computer ------------- I speak solely for myself in these matters
dak@mips.com (Dave Kearney) (10/02/90)
In article <10477@goofy.Apple.COM>, maller@applelink@apple.com (Steve Maller) writes: > The reason > given by the people who made the decision for the disabling of the > userlevels above #2 is that they wanted to keep naive users from > accidentally destroying their stacks. Ahaaaa... isn't this a little like covering up the trash can so that people can't throw away files they might need... This marketing hooha is cracking me up... Clearly Claris has already chosen a future product direction and is masking its introduction as a benefit... yahoo...
jay@argosy.UUCP (Jay O'Conor) (10/02/90)
In article <41840@mips.mips.COM> dak@mips.com writes: >This marketing hooha is cracking me up... Clearly Claris has already >chosen a future product direction and is masking its introduction as a >benefit... I tend to agree. It appears that Claris is targeting "authoring systems" as a possible next big market, like "desktop publishing" et al. It's sad really. I was really encouraged to see Apple take the heat from software publishers when HyperCard was released. If I remember correctly, HyperCard's release was relatively close to the time that Claris was created. Apple held on to HyperCard, claiming they needed to do so with system software - which is what they claimed HyperCard was/is. HyperCard really held promise as system software. Finally, here was something that might be functionally comparable to AppleSoft Basic on the Apple II or shell programming on a DOS machine. E.g. programming for the masses. This was one of the biggest holes in the Mac UI - there was no way to automate tasks. Granted, there may now be terriffic macro programs on the market for the Mac, but none of these come with the machine, and each falls short for one reason or another. Only with HyperCard, in conjunction with the promise of Apple Events in System 7.0, promised the possibility of an integrated means of programming the Macintosh User Interface. Now it appears that that dream is dead. HyperCard is just another Macintosh Application. Has Apple abandoned programming for the masses? It would appear so. Jay O'Conor jay@maspar.com
francis@arthur.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) (10/05/90)
In article <8583@ncar.ucar.edu> hpoppe@ncar.ucar.edu (Herb Poppe) writes: >In article <EMERY.90Sep21105954@aries.linus.mitre.org> >emery@linus.mitre.org (David Emery) writes: >> >Chuq: >> >Not gone, hidden -- to protect someone who hasn't figured things out >> >yet won't get themselves in deep trouble. >> >> So now the "computer for the rest of us" has to protect us from >> ourselves? Ugh! Besides, does "hidden" still mean "accessable"? I >> don't understand the difference here. Either it's there or it's not. > >Have people forgotten that scripting has always been hidden in HyperCard? >It has always been the case that one had to go into the Home stack and >click on "Scripting" to make this feature accessible. Not really. Somebody who doesn't mind using the message box can turn it on from anywhere. In particular, it's easy enough to have it turned on by default in any (or every) stack. | Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| | Department of Mathematics |=============================================| | University of Chicago | A mathematician is a professional | | francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | schizophrenic.--Me. |
clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) (10/05/90)
In article <1990Oct4.173732.16943@midway.uchicago.edu> francis@arthur.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes: >In article <8583@ncar.ucar.edu> hpoppe@ncar.ucar.edu (Herb Poppe) writes: >>Have people forgotten that scripting has always been hidden in HyperCard? >>It has always been the case that one had to go into the Home stack and >>click on "Scripting" to make this feature accessible. > >Not really. Somebody who doesn't mind using the message box can turn it on >from anywhere. In particular, it's easy enough to have it turned on by >default in any (or every) stack. And these same people will be able to turn it on via the message box in v 2.0. Does anyone remember the original Hypercard documentation? There are _very_ few mentions of scripting and HyperTalk [<10, if I recall correctly] and virtually all of them say "Scripting is not covered in this manual. Go to your favorite bookseller and inquire about HyperTalk books." So, since day one, Apple has effective required the aspiring scripter to go spend some more money on books in order to write scripts. Now, they will be selling the official books themselves. What's the big hullabaloo about? chaz -- -- "I Am The Reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln", Insists Prince. -spew clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu AOL:Crowbone
pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) (10/06/90)
In article <2346@ux.acs.umn.edu> clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) writes: > Does anyone remember the original Hypercard documentation? There are _very_ > few mentions of scripting and HyperTalk [<10, if I recall correctly] and > virtually all of them say "Scripting is not covered in this manual. Go to > your favorite bookseller and inquire about HyperTalk books." I don't remember the original HyperCard documentation. All the information on scripting I ever needed was available via pretzel-? which I discovered about forty-five seconds after starting HyperCard the first time. Now THAT'S what I call easily accessible. Eric Pepke INTERNET: pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke@fsu Florida State University SPAN: scri::pepke Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 BITNET: pepke@fsu Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions. Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) (10/10/90)
In article <1023@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) writes: >In article <2346@ux.acs.umn.edu> clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) >writes: >> Does anyone remember the original Hypercard documentation? There are >_very_ >> few mentions of scripting and HyperTalk [<10, if I recall correctly] and >> virtually all of them say "Scripting is not covered in this manual. Go >to >> your favorite bookseller and inquire about HyperTalk books." > >I don't remember the original HyperCard documentation. All the >information on scripting I ever needed was available via pretzel-? which >I discovered about forty-five seconds after starting HyperCard the first >time. > >Now THAT'S what I call easily accessible. And that was my point. Here on comp.sys.mac.hypercard there has been a constant stream of strident posts regarding the hidden nature of scripting in Hypercard 2.0, and about how Apple/Claris is committing a crime against nature by selling the full documentation separately. Well, full documentation has been extra $$ from day one. What has changed there? Hypercard 2.0 will ship with a limited set of stacks. I would presume that one of the stacks that will ship with 2.0 will be the help stack. Now, I may be being really naive; maybe Apple will issue a "novice" home stack that will have all mentions of scripting excised. However, I really don't think Apple will. Even if Apple does do that, most every Mac user or new buyer will find out from the Mac press or from current Mac users that Hypercard is a great scripting tool, as the users did when Hyper 1.x was released. If they want to take advantage of this scripting capability, they will have to buy a piece of supplementary documentation, just as they did when Hypercard 1.x came out. What has changed? Only this: Apple is now in the business of selling the supplementary documentation. chaz -- -- "I Am The Reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln", Insists Prince. -spew clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu AOL:Crowbone
wilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) (10/11/90)
In article <2375@ux.acs.umn.edu> clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) writes: >Hypercard 2.0 will ship with a limited set of stacks. I would presume that >one of the stacks that will ship with 2.0 will be the help stack. Now, I >may be being really naive; maybe Apple will issue a "novice" home stack that >will have all mentions of scripting excised. Note that the "release" version of HyperCard 2.0 sent to seed sites and user groups, the five-disk set, had two different help stacks, a general help and a scripting help. It would not surprise me if the scripting help stack were conspicuously absent from the bundled version. -- Mark Wilkins -- ******* "Freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitude!" ********** *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------* * Mark R. Wilkins wilkins@jarthur.claremont.edu {uunet}!jarthur!wilkins * ****** MARK.WILKINS on AppleLink ****** MWilkins on America Online ******
clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) (10/11/90)
In article <8999@jarthur.Claremont.EDU> wilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) writes: >In article <2375@ux.acs.umn.edu> clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) writes: >>Hypercard 2.0 will ship with a limited set of stacks. I would presume that >>one of the stacks that will ship with 2.0 will be the help stack. Now, I >>may be being really naive; maybe Apple will issue a "novice" home stack that >>will have all mentions of scripting excised. > > Note that the "release" version of HyperCard 2.0 sent to seed sites and >user groups, the five-disk set, had two different help stacks, a general >help and a scripting help. > > It would not surprise me if the scripting help stack were conspicuously >absent from the bundled version. Ah, facts seem to have proven me naive. I guess that the conspiracy theorists are correct. Apple is attempting to turn all Macintosh users into mindless, clicking drones. chaz Say, did anyone notice that the little kid on the 10/6 episode of Twin Peaks looked just like a miniature David Lynch? -- -- "I Am The Reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln", Insists Prince. -spew clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu AOL:Crowbone
sdavey@hydra.unm.edu (Sean Davey) (10/11/90)
In article <2395@ux.acs.umn.edu> clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) writes: >Say, did anyone notice that the little kid on the 10/6 episode of Twin Peaks >looked just like a miniature David Lynch? not that this belongs here, but the kid was played by someone with the last name of Lynch. Sean
EGNILGES@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Ed Nilges) (01/08/91)
It's pretty arrogant to convert a pre-2.0 stack to 2.0 format, such that the stack CANNOT be used with an older version of Hypercard and without any backup. It assumes that the user wants to use Hypercard 2.0, which is slower and which (it appears) behaves differently with stacks that work under older versions. This may very well be the case. However, by converting the stack without backup, you've taken control out of the user's hands. This isn't like the Apple Computer I know... it's more like IBM. Perhaps I am missing something. Perhaps a backup is created a la Kermit. With respect to 2.0, I am a neophyte, and if any of you honchos want to set me straight please feel free. But right now I'm pissed (angry pissed, not squiffled pissed.)
jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) (01/08/91)
In article <12208@pucc.Princeton.EDU> EGNILGES@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Ed Nilges) writes: >It's pretty arrogant to convert a pre-2.0 stack to 2.0 format, such >that the stack CANNOT be used with an older version of Hypercard and >without any backup. It assumes that the user wants to use Hypercard >2.0, which is slower and which (it appears) behaves differently with >stacks that work under older versions. This may very well be the case. >However, by converting the stack without backup, you've taken control >out of the user's hands. This isn't like the Apple Computer I know... >it's more like IBM. Of course, the reason you can't open converted stacks with HyperCard 1.x is that the file format has changed to include new information, such as window location, styled text in fields, shared hilight states for background buttons -- lots of things to support the new features of 2.0. In HyperCard 2.0, when you choose "Convert Stack..." from the File menu, you get a dialog that says "Convert stack to 2.0 format?". This is inadequate, for two reasons: 1) The possibility of problems in running 1.x stacks under 2.0, though small, is real. 2) Users didn't get the manuals that describe stack conversion and advise making backups, because HyperCard 2.0 is being distributed in a way very different from the way we thought it would be. Therefore, in HyperCard 2.0v2, we changed the dialog. It now says, "Only HyperCard 2.0 and later versions can open converted stacks. You may want to save a copy before converting this stack." I hope this is sufficient warning for new users. The "Save a Copy..." menu item is in the same menu as "Convert Stack...", so there's no problem in making a backup before conversion. > ...right now >I'm pissed (angry pissed, not squiffled pissed.) Yes, I can tell, because you've made two generalizations from scant evidence: 2.0 behaves differently with all stacks that work under older versions, and 2.0 is slower than 1.0. Neither of these is true. The differences between 1.0 and 2.0 that may cause problems with older stacks are really very minor. I'd be happy to help you figure out what the problem is with the stacks you've converted. As for HyperCard 2.0 being slower than 1.x, it's true that for some operations, especially those that require support from TextEdit, 2.0 is slower. But, overall, 2.0 is easily faster than 1.0. Kevin Calhoun HyperCard Team Apple Computer, Inc.
mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu (Jeff E Mandel MD MS) (01/08/91)
In article <12208@pucc.Princeton.EDU> EGNILGES@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Ed Nilges) writes: >It's pretty arrogant to convert a pre-2.0 stack to 2.0 format, such >that the stack CANNOT be used with an older version of Hypercard and >without any backup. It assumes that the user wants to use Hypercard >2.0, which is slower and which (it appears) behaves differently with >stacks that work under older versions. This may very well be the case. >However, by converting the stack without backup, you've taken control >out of the user's hands. This isn't like the Apple Computer I know... >it's more like IBM. > >Perhaps I am missing something. Perhaps a backup is created a la >Kermit. With respect to 2.0, I am a neophyte, and if any of you >honchos want to set me straight please feel free. But right now >I'm pissed (angry pissed, not squiffled pissed.) > HyperCard 2.0 slower? Not with my stack (400K of scripts and XCMDs and growing daily). With regard to the lack of backup, I would prefer an option to save a copy prior to conversion, but I have learned to live with it. If it bothers you, you can always install a handler in your home stack to catch doMenu, and if the message is "Convert Stack" first send doMenu "Save a copy..." to HyperCard. That's the nice thing about HyperCard; you can patch aspects of its behavior that offend you. So to sum up, yes, you are missing something. Jeff E Mandel MD MS Asst. Professor of Anesthesiology Tulane University School of Medicine New Orleans, LA Disclaimer: "Anyone who would let an anesthesiologist teach them HyperCard programming should be equally willing to let a Hypercard programmer give them an anesthetic" P.S. My editor murdered the source listing in my last posting. Sorry.
EGNILGES@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Ed Nilges) (01/08/91)
In article <47827@apple.Apple.COM>, jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) writes: > >In article <12208@pucc.Princeton.EDU> EGNILGES@pucc.Princeton.EDU >(Ed Nilges) writes: >>It's pretty arrogant to convert a pre-2.0 stack to 2.0 format, such >>that the stack CANNOT be used with an older version of Hypercard and >>without any backup... > >Of course, the reason you can't open converted stacks with HyperCard 1.x >is that the file format has changed to include new information, such as >window location, styled text in fields, shared hilight states for >background buttons -- lots of things to support the new features of 2.0. You could have done this such that the format was upward compatible: such that stacks would work with 2.0 and older releases, as long as they did not explicitly require the new features. You chose not to, and I feel that marketing considerations played a role in your decision. Either the pre-2.0 stack format did not accomodate expansion, which was a bad decision at that time, or else the 2.0 stack format did not take advantage of expansion capability...which is a bad decision NOW. I am speculating since I am not privy to either stack format. I'd welcome insight into that, but I understand that Hypercard is not open-architected at the level of the stack. > >In HyperCard 2.0, when you choose "Convert Stack..." from the File menu, >you get a dialog that says "Convert stack to 2.0 format?". This is >inadequate, for two reasons: > >1) The possibility of problems in running 1.x stacks under 2.0, though > small, is real. >2) Users didn't get the manuals that describe stack conversion and > advise making backups, because HyperCard 2.0 is being distributed > in a way very different from the way we thought it would be. Thanks for your honesty. I am sitting here with a DayTimer stack of my own devising (I am responsible, by the way, for using that copyrighted name to describe this noncommercial stack) that has effectively been trashed by Hypercard 2.0. It is in 2.0 format, I cannot convert it back to 1.x format (please advise if there's a utility), it runs a LOT slower because it does a lot of text editing, and I use a shared copy of Hypercard 2.0 on a file server that is not always available. I should have made a copy of the stack before the convert, especially since I am aware of Hypercard's overall philosophy, which is to treat disk and RAM as a one-level store, altering disk without telling the user: but it still burns my ass that I have to use 2.0 now all the time. I suppose I have a way of getting my own copy of Hypercard upgraded to 2.0, but it's still slower for MY applications and I prefer, being a control freak, to upgrade when I am good and ready. > >Therefore, in HyperCard 2.0v2, we changed the dialog. It now says, >"Only HyperCard 2.0 and later versions can open converted stacks. You >may want to save a copy before converting this stack." I hope this is >sufficient warning for new users. The "Save a Copy..." menu item is >in the same menu as "Convert Stack...", so there's no problem in making >a backup before conversion. Better, but I have been using Hypercard ever since it was announced and I did the ConvertStack using 2.0v0, so it is not only "new users" who need this warning. I feel it would be best to provide an undoConvert, an automatic backup, or a utility to convert back to 1.x format, and it still seems that market considerations drive the decision not to provide these tools. > >> ...right now >>I'm pissed (angry pissed, not squiffled pissed.) > >Yes, I can tell, because you've made two generalizations from scant >evidence: 2.0 behaves differently with all stacks that work under >older versions, and 2.0 is slower than 1.0. Neither of these is true. I just reviewed the initial post. I did say that 2.0 is slower. That has been my consistent experience on a 68020 platform. Have you tried Hypercard on such a slightly older platform? I actually qualified my claim that Hypercard runs different, not just more slowly. I said that it appears to be the case. I found that "go to it", for example, works differently when "it" contains "card id nnnnn". If you want more detail I will create a test stack and send it to you. > >The differences between 1.0 and 2.0 that may cause problems with older >stacks are really very minor. I'd be happy to help you figure out what >the problem is with the stacks you've converted. > >As for HyperCard 2.0 being slower than 1.x, it's true that for some >operations, especially those that require support from TextEdit, 2.0 >is slower. But, overall, 2.0 is easily faster than 1.0. AAaaaargh, that's precisely what I do a lot of...text editing. My stacks consist of a lot of functions running on top of Hypercard string manipulation...things like "getPhrase" to get word n thru m from a string, and so on. Does anybody have an XCMD/XFCN of C-like text facilities? Where's my Hypercard compiler? > >Kevin Calhoun >HyperCard Team >Apple Computer, Inc. Thanks for your reply, Kevin! Hate to be such a pain in the butt, but I actually like Hypercard.
jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) (01/08/91)
In article <12209@pucc.Princeton.EDU> EGNILGES@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Ed Nilges) writes: >> ...the reason you can't open converted stacks with HyperCard 1.x >>is that the file format has changed to include new information >You could have done this such that the format was upward compatible: >such that stacks would work with 2.0 and older releases, as long as >they did not explicitly require the new features. You chose not to, >and I feel that marketing considerations played a role in your decision. >Either the pre-2.0 stack format did not accomodate expansion, which >was a bad decision at that time, or else the 2.0 stack format did not >take advantage of expansion capability...which is a bad decision NOW. Marketing played no role in this decision. The 1.x stack format did not accommodate expansion. But let's not be too hard on its designer. He got a lot of other things right. > I did say that 2.0 is slower. That >has been my consistent experience on a 68020 platform. Have you tried >Hypercard on such a slightly older platform? Yes, I use HyperCard 2.0 regularly on 68000, 68020, and 68030 Macintoshes. It's part of my job. > I am sitting here with a DayTimer stack of >my own devising [...] that has effectively been trashed by Hypercard >2.0. It is in 2.0 format, I cannot convert it back to 1.x format [...], >it runs a LOT slower because it does a lot of text editing, and I use a >shared copy of Hypercard 2.0 on a file server that is not always >available. >My stacks consist of a lot of functions running on top of Hypercard >string manipulation...things like "getPhrase" to get word n thru m >from a string, and so on. There's a bug in 2.0, fixed in 2.0v2, which makes evaluating "word x to y of <expr>" and "char x to y of <expr>" much slower than it should be. You would benefit quite a lot from getting your own copy of HyperCard 2.0v2 -- evaluating such expressions in 2.0v2 is faster than it was in 1.x. And if you had 2.0v2, you wouldn't have to put up with the inherent sluggishness of running the application off of the server. BTW, having this bug in 2.0 wasn't a marketing decision, either. :-) It was an engineering omission. :-( > I found that >"go to it", for example, works differently when "it" contains "card >id nnnnn". >Where's my Hypercard compiler? It's in HyperCard, and it's responsible for the slowdown in commands such as "go to it". You can imagine the horror of trying to compile a command of this type. Not very specific at compile time, is it? The 2.0 HyperTalk compiler, overall, speeds up the execution of 1.0 scripts. Naturally, there are tradeoffs, and "go to it" is one of them. Kevin Calhoun HyperCard Team Apple Computer, Inc.
crocker@motcid.UUCP (Ronald T. Crocker) (01/08/91)
Ok, disclaimer first: I've never used HyperCard as a programming interface, and I just bought my first Mac (a IIsi). I'm slightly confused about a few things. First, by the discussion that I've been reading here, HC2.0 has a programming interface. This interface is not at all documented in the documentation that I got with my IIsi. Kevin from Apple claims (indirectly) that HC2.0 is not necessarily upward compatible with HC1.x. So, Apple has given me HC2.0 (thanks:->) but it is apparently useless to me as a programming environment since I don't know how to use it (thanks:-<). Given the useless information above, I have three questions: 1) Kevin mentions a maintenance release (2.0v2). How can one get this? 2) Is there any Apple documentation on the programming interface for HC2.0? If not, what is the best source of information for programming HC? 3) Previously, in this newsgroup, someone mentioned a problem with HC2.0 and System 7.0b1. Are apple users in general supposed to get System 7 for free or what? I was also under the impression that I was supposed to get System 7 for my system, but it didn't come with? Should I expect it in the mail from Apple, or will I have to call them to get it? (I bought my Mac on 12/12/90) Thanks!-- Ron Crocker Motorola Radio-Telephone Systems Group, Cellular Infrastructure Group (708) 632-4752 [FAX: (708) 632-4430] ...!uunet!motcid!crocker
cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu (Andrew M. Cohill) (01/08/91)
Alright, let's suppose that Apple should have been more explicit about the effects of converting a 1.x stack to 2.0 format; in fact, Kevin Calhoun has admitted as much. Now let's suppose that I unwittingly convert a stack, and discover that it does not work the way I want, and would prefer to continue using the stack in it's 1.x form. But I can't convert the stack back now, because HyperCard 2.0 won't let me do that. I would just get out my backup disk and copy the 1.x version back onto my hard disk. No muss, no fuss, no messy cleanup. If you don't make backups, don't try to blame somebody else for your problems..... -- | ...we have to look for routes of power our teachers never | imagined, or were encouraged to avoid. T. Pynchon | |Andy Cohill cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu VPI&SU
EGNILGES@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Ed Nilges) (01/09/91)
In article <47854@apple.Apple.COM>, jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) writes: > >But let's not be too hard on its designer. He got a lot of other things >right. You're right on that one. > >> I found that QUYO to it", for example, works differently when "it" contains "card >>id nnnnn". > >>Where's my Hypercard compiler? > >It's in HyperCard, and it's responsible for the slowdown in commands >such as "go to it". You can imagine the horror of trying to compile >a command of this type. Not very specific at compile time, is it? Yeah, it's difficult in an interpreted language with DO statements to in general compile. IBM recently announced a compiler for the REXX language which refuses to compile ANY program with INTERPRET statements (INTERPRET is REXX's analogue to HyperTalk's DO.) I claim, however, that this is too restrictive. If you do flow analy- sis you can in very many cases predict what the DOne string will contain. A trivial example would be get "ANSWER" && QUOTE & "NUTS" & QUOTE DO it The flow analysis is identical to what an optimizing compiler needs to do. In the original example, GO TO IT, compilation is even easier as long as you have an execution-time routine for HyperTalk's GO TO. > >The 2.0 HyperTalk compiler, overall, speeds up the execution of 1.0 >scripts. Naturally, there are tradeoffs, and "go to it" is one of them. WHAT compiler? Remember, no manuals. I have just checked and have found "comment" and "uncomment" but no "compiler". I presume that you do some internal compilation. Thanks for you assistance.
EGNILGES@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Ed Nilges) (01/09/91)
In article <951@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>, cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu (Andrew M. Cohill) writes: > >I would just get out my backup disk and copy the 1.x version back onto >my hard disk. No muss, no fuss, no messy cleanup. > >If you don't make backups, don't try to blame somebody else for your >problems..... > No, I don't buy it. First of all, I am willing to live with this enforced conversion to 2.0. It's got a lot more features that I need. Secondly, even if I did have a backup, that does not change the main point. This is that a professional programmer will follow the rule of the older professions, "above all, not knowingly to do harm." I know that in actual recent practice, doctors and lawyers don't observe this rule, but we still expect the surgeon not to open up our chest and say, "I'm not operating on this turkey, he's a smoker!": we expect the lawyer to inform us of our rights. When the decision was made to go ahead and convert you are for- cing naive users into 2.0 in all sorts of situations you cannot predict...willingly causing harm. Since I'm not a naive user, I have plenty of options including manually reconstructing the stack with version 1.0, perhaps assisted by special-purpose scripts. Other users won't be so lucky.
Ken.Knight@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Knight) (01/09/91)
I've found HC 2.0 to be faster than 1.2.x for many things. There has
been discussion of this before here and the informal quicky tests I've
run show HC 2.0 to be quite a bit quicker. The environment you run HC
2.0 in does have a fiar affect on the speed of the stack. If you are
running under MultiFinder with lots of background tasks running HC 2.0
will slow down a good deal. But, that is acceptable cause now HC at
least lets those processess run. Here is a quicky summary of some crude
tests I did a while back the times are in ticks (1/60 sec = 1 tick)
these were done running MultiFinder on a Mac II all the tests were done
with the screen locked:
1.2.x 2.0x* 2.0
Flip 100 lines in a field 870 1118 260
Flip 100 lines in a container 266 111 114
Add 100 lines in a field (partial sums) 1002 1433 218
Add 100 lines in a field (just total) 311 326 94
Add 100 lines in container (partial sum) 194 159 152
File to Field (tab-delimited 3-column) 1778 1124 1362
* HC 2.0 running unconverted stacks.
HC 2.0 is consistently faster than 1.2.5 running converted stack. It is
almost always signifigantly faster running unconverted stack,too. While
there is no downward compatability that is nothing really new. You
could write stacks for HC 1.2 that WOULD NOT run on older version of
HyperCard and many people did write such stacks. 2.0 provides so much
more than 1.2.x that it is well worth the switch.
--
Ken Knight, Ken.Knight@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org
via The Black Cat's Shack's FidoNet<->Usenet Gateway
blkcat.fidonet.org and Fidonet 1:109/401clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) (01/09/91)
In article <6045@orange.UUCP> crocker@motcid.UUCP (Ronald T. Crocker) writes: |I'm slightly confused about a few things. First, by the discussion |that I've been reading here, HC2.0 has a programming interface. This |interface is not at all documented in the documentation that I got |with my IIsi. Kevin from Apple claims (indirectly) that HC2.0 is not |necessarily upward compatible with HC1.x. To a certain extent. THe file format is not compatible at all, but the scripting language _is_ for the most part. Most anything that worked in HyperTalk 1.x should work in HyperTalk 2.0. |1) Kevin mentions a maintenance release (2.0v2). How can one get | this? By upgrading your copy of HyperCard through Claris, who now owns HyperCard. |2) Is there any Apple documentation on the programming interface for | HC2.0? If not, what is the best source of information for | programming HC? You will get basic programming documentation with your $49 upgrade from Claris. There are other, more expensive, ways to upgrade through CLaris that get you more programming documentation. Personally, I'd recommend trekking down to your local computer bookstore and picking up one of the myriad HyperCard 2.0 books which are presently available. |3) Previously, in this newsgroup, someone mentioned a problem with | HC2.0 and System 7.0b1. Are apple users in general supposed to get | System 7 for free or what? If the upgrade to 7.0 works like past System Software releases, you'll be able to go to your dealer and copy the software for free. If you want manuals, you'll have to buy them. This may not be the case with System 7.0. | I was also under the impression that I | was supposed to get System 7 for my system, but it didn't come | with? Someone gave you a bum steer. System 7.0 has not been released yet, and likely won't be for a few more months. | Should I expect it in the mail from Apple, or will I have to | call them to get it? (I bought my Mac on 12/12/90) They won't send it to you, no matter how many times you call. When it is released, you will have to go down to the dealer to get it. chaz -- Someone please release me from this trance. clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu AOL:Crowbone
jkc@Apple.COM (John Kevin Calhoun) (01/10/91)
In article <6045@orange.UUCP> crocker@motcid.UUCP (Ronald T. Crocker) writes: > First, by the discussion >that I've been reading here, HC2.0 has a programming interface. Yes. Its programming language is called HyperTalk. > Kevin from Apple claims (indirectly) that HC2.0 is not >necessarily upward compatible with HC1.x. Well, if we want to talk about degrees of upward compatibility, I can put it this way: the percentage of 1.0 stacks that don't work under 2.0 is much much lower than the percentage of Macintosh applications that run on the Mac IIcx but break on the Mac IIci. I have yet to encounter a problem running my 1.0 stacks under 2.0. For example, the Dartmouth XCMDs stack, which is well over 750K and contains more than 20 XCMDs, works fine under 2.0. >1) Kevin mentions a maintenance release (2.0v2). How can one get > this? Call Claris at 1-800-628-2100, extension 90. They'll charge you $49 for the upgrade. >2) Is there any Apple documentation on the programming interface for > HC2.0? If not, what is the best source of information for > programming HC? A complete HyperTalk Scripting Guide is included in the package you'll receive from Claris. >3) Previously, in this newsgroup, someone mentioned a problem with > HC2.0 and System 7.0b1. Are apple users in general supposed to get > System 7 for free or what? System 7 has not been released to the general public. Apple customarily sends pre-release versions of its software to developers. As for pricing of System 7 and its availability to the general public, I've just been handed this bulletin. It's a product update announcement that describes the Software Update Program, one of several ways you can get System Software updates from Apple. This program appears to have been designed especially for customers who have many Macintoshes. I'm including it here because it includes some general information that readers of this newsgroup may find interesting. ----- PRODUCT UPDATE Apple System Software Update Program Dateline: CUPERTINO, California-January 7, 1991 Program Description: The Software Update Program is a timely, cost-effective method for customers to upgrade system software on many Macintosh personal computers for one price. The System Software and HyperCard subscription entitles customers to all software upgrades of these products for one year. Significance: Apple's newest version of its Macintosh system software, System 7.0, is expected to be released sometime in the first half of calendar 1991. Customers who purchase the Software Update Program now, will be assured by Apple that they will receive product shipment within days of the introduction, offering customers an easy and convenient way to receive new releases. The full 12-month subscription gives customers an easy, accurate way to budget for Apple software updates. Complete documentation is included with each major upgrade describing all enhancements, ensuring users get each upgrade's full benefits. HyperCard 2.0 v.2 is also bundled with the System Software subscription. This is the same version of HyperCard that Apple ships with each Macintosh, so customers can be assured they have the most current version of the software. Licensing: The System Software Update Program comes with a "Right-to-Copy" license, permitting multiple copies of the system software and HyperCard application at an entire site for no additional payments. Availability: The System Software and HyperCard subscription is available worldwide through Apple Authorized Dealers for $160. ----- I haven't heard anything about how much it will cost to buy a single copy of the 7.0 package with documentation. Apple now sells such packages for System 6.0.x for -- yes you guessed it -- $49. Also, there have always been ways to get just the software, either online or from an Apple dealer, without having to pay Apple anything. Kevin Calhoun HyperCard Team Apple Computer, Inc. Disclaimer: I'm not an Apple spokesperson. But I play one on TV.
bose@milton.u.washington.edu (Rob Olsen) (01/28/91)
I'm interested in getting HC 2.0, but I'm not sure if I want to buy the Developmental Kit. It's $150 or so and that too much for me. I am intertested in creating 2.0 stacks though. How good is the developmental kit and do you really need to use it to make stacks? Or does anyone know about a place where I can get one for less then $100??? Thanks
Jim.Spencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.mmug.edgar.mn.org (Jim Spencer) (01/30/91)
Rob Olsen writes in a message to All RO> I'm interested in getting HC 2.0, but I'm not sure if I want RO> to buy the Developmental Kit. It's $150 or so and that too much RO> for me. I am intertested in creating 2.0 stacks though. How good RO> is the developmental kit and do you really need to use it to RO> make stacks? Or does anyone know about a place where I can get RO> one for less then $100??? The Developer's Kit is misnamed: it is really an expensive beginners kit. The version that comes with the Mac or which so far is available from user groups for free has all the software that you need. If these sources fail, the $49 "upgrade" from Claris also contains all that software. What these two packages do not contain is the manuals but the cheap way out is third party books. In particular, The Book is a good reference manual and there are several tutorial type books around for a whole lot less t han Claris is ripping people off for. -- Jim Spencer - via The Minnesota Macintosh Users Group UUCP-Fido Gateway UUCP: ...uunet!tcnet!kksys!edgar!mmug!22.510!Jim.Spencer INET: Jim.Spencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.mmug.edgar.mn.org