jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) (10/20/87)
The uucp protocols are implemented under Unix. There is a public-domain version under MS-DOS. Which of these products is under export ban to Communist countries? Both of them? Joe Y
jarmo@tut.FI (Jarmo Sorvari) (10/21/87)
In article <8710141028.aa02272@toby.cs.bham.ac.uk>, BattenIG@CS.BHAM.AC.UK (Ian G Batten) writes: > > How would we try to do this ? Could we link through Japan > > or India or Germany ? > I think there are Finish sites on Eunet which would be geographically > and ideologically suitable. Hmm... Could you be more specific with your notion on "ideologically suitable"? What exactly do you mean? Geographically, yes. Technologically -- I don't know if it is any easier to call Russia than from any other western country. But ideologically?? -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! Jarmo Sorvari Control Engineering Laboratory ! ! ...!mcvax!tut.fi!jarmo Tampere University of Technology ! --------------------------------------- BOX 527, 33101 Tampere, Finland -----
imprint@orchid.UUCP (10/21/87)
If the public domain implementation of MS-DOS UUCP protocols are under an export ban this is news indeed. Along with lots of other public domain software, anyone, anywhere in the world, can call up and download it from numerous BBS systems, including mine! Doug Thompson imprint@orchid Fido 221/162
jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) (10/22/87)
Interesting point. Many people write "freeware" or "shareware" these
days that is given away freely. Since it's not commerce to not-sell
something, commercial export bans really can't apply. (Can they? I'm
not a lawyer, but this seems to fit into a legal nicety.) What will
the government do when some 7-year-old hacker writes a DES system and
puts it on a free BBS?
I never suggested that UUCP was on an export list -- indeed, for the
same reason that it pays for Voice of America, the Gov might like it
freely available. And on the other hand, so many PC clones have been
made and so many copies of MS-DOS distributed (legally or illegally)
that there must be a MoscPC node, even if MoscVAX is an April Fool's
joke. (It is, isn't it?) The VAX, though, is on the export list; and
at least some parts of Unix code are.
Joe Yao jsdy@hadron.COM (not yet domainised)
hadron!jsdy@{uunet.UU.NET,dtix.ARPA,decuac.DEC.COM}
att,blkcat,cos,decuac,dtix,ecogong,phw5,\
inco,insight,itc3b2,kcwc,netex,netxcom, >!hadron!jsdy
empire,rlgvax,seismo,smsdpg,sundc,uunet /imprint@orchid.waterloo.EDU (U of Waterloo Student Newspaper) (10/22/87)
Yeah -- it all gets very interesting. There is a MoscPC node -- at least potentially. AT one point the USSR embassy in Ottawa actually suggested linking their Olivetti PC clone to my BBS by modem. From the embassy, of course, data transmission to Moscow is a snap. I still don't know why, but after some weeks of discussion, (and me sending them a few disks of freeware to accomplish it) they seemed to cool off on the idea. Who knows how decisions get made over there. The point is, given the political will on their side (and ours too, I suppose) there is not a technical problem in accomplishing it. You don't need Unix to run mail and news, and as for any hypothetical ban on MS-DOS, what's to stop Joe Embassy Secretary from walking into any of a dozen computer stores in Ottawa, laying down his 25 rubles, and taking a copy home? Obviously, if they are using PC clones in their office they have MS-DOS! Anyway, it's become clear to me that if we want to see this happen, the needed work is political more than technical. We need to convince some- one in the politbureau that it is a good idea. There are a couple of people I have some contacts with who have actually met with Gorbachev, and have some access and credibility in the Moscow circles. I'm preparing to bounce the idea off them. This could get interesting. Doug
BattenIG@CS.BHAM.AC.UK (Ian G Batten) (10/23/87)
> Interesting point. Many people write "freeware" or "shareware" these > days that is given away freely. Since it's not commerce to not-sell > something, commercial export bans really can't apply. (Can they? I'm > not a lawyer, but this seems to fit into a legal nicety.) What will > the government do when some 7-year-old hacker writes a DES system and > puts it on a free BBS? I suspect that it can be stopped; however, even though our Suns don't have the des software because of export restrictions, it's noticable that almost everyone has a PD des on their machines these days. It's moderately hard to impose restrictions on physical hardware, harder still on "actual" (ie tapes, disks, listings) on software; stopping the flow of information is well-nigh impossible. Since the des algorithm is publically available, witholding the code that implements it is rather pointless. ian
BattenIG@CS.BHAM.AC.UK (Ian G Batten) (10/23/87)
> From: Jarmo Sorvari <mcvax!enea!tut!jarmo@net.uu.uunet> > Subject: Re: UUCP to RUSSIA > To: info-futures@bu-cs.bu.edu > > In article <8710141028.aa02272@toby.cs.bham.ac.uk>, BattenIG@CS.BHAM.AC.UK (I > G Batten) writes: > > > How would we try to do this ? Could we link through Japan > > > or India or Germany ? > > I think there are Finish sites on Eunet which would be geographically > > and ideologically suitable. > > Hmm... Could you be more specific with your notion on "ideologically > suitable"? What exactly do you mean? As I understand it, Finland has something less of a knee-jerk "Commies! Shoot Now!" mentality than elements of the US government --- with rail links, for example, it presumably has a rather more normal "this is my neighbour" policy than the xenophobes might prefer. Thus, I assume, quietly linking Finnish boxes to Russian boxes with UUCP would cause less heart-ache than if they were in the US. [Incidently, isn't there some trouble that the US State Dept. is trying to stir up over sale of computer hardware to Finland? The usual idiocy..] ian
karl@ddsw1.UUCP (Karl Denninger) (10/23/87)
In article <8710222017.AA01466@hadron.UUCP> jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) writes: >Many people write "freeware" or "shareware" these days that is given >away freely. Since it's not commerce to not-sell >something, commercial export bans really can't apply. (Can they? I'm >not a lawyer, but this seems to fit into a legal nicety.) What will >the government do when some 7-year-old hacker writes a DES system and >puts it on a free BBS? Ah, but this already *has* been done -- the source code to a DES implementation in software was recently posted. We have a copy here. I have not yet checked to see if it calls the unix encryption routines itself, or does the encryption entirely in the code. I'm sure there's *some* law on the books *somewhere* to stop this kind of idea (the linkage), there always seems to be one when the politicos don't find the 'risks' from such a venture acceptable. -- Karl Denninger UUCP : ...ihnp4!ddsw1!karl Macro Computer Solutions Dial : +1 (312) 566-8909 (300-1200) "Quality solutions at a fair price" Voice: +1 (312) 566-8910 (24 hrs)
LEWIS@cs.umass.EDU (10/25/87)
From: IN%"BattenIG@cs.bham.ac.UK" "Ian G Batten" 24-OCT-1987 04:27 To: Jarmo Sorvari <mcvax!enea!tut!jarmo@seismo.css.GOV> >As I understand it, Finland has something less of a knee-jerk "Commies! >Shoot Now!" mentality than elements of the US government --- with rail >links, for example, it presumably has a rather more normal "this is my >neighbour" policy than the xenophobes might prefer. A perusal of your favorite European history book will reveal that during its existence Finland has fought something like 40 wars with Russia and lost every one. Their "this is my neighbour" policy, or rather their "disinclination to offend my neighbour lest I get my a** kicked yet again" policy, is understandable, but not enviable. David D. Lewis University of Massachusetts, Amherst lewis@cs.umass.edu
jarmo@tut.FI (Jarmo Sorvari) (10/26/87)
In article <8710231337.aa13385@toby.cs.bham.ac.uk> BattenIG@CS.BHAM.AC.UK (Ian G Batten) writes: >> In article <8710141028.aa02272@toby.cs.bham.ac.uk>, BattenIG@CS.BHAM.AC.UK (I >> G Batten) writes: >> > I think there are Finish sites on Eunet which would be geographically >> > and ideologically suitable. >> Hmm... Could you be more specific with your notion on "ideologically >> suitable"? What exactly do you mean? >As I understand it, Finland has something less of a knee-jerk "Commies! >Shoot Now!" mentality than elements of the US government --- with rail >links, for example, it presumably has a rather more normal "this is my >neighbour" policy than the xenophobes might prefer. Thus, I assume, Alright, I'll buy this. I was worried that you meant quite the contrary by being ideologically suitable; there is so much ignorance (mainly in the US, I admit!) about how things are in Finland, that I may have become over-sensitive about it! > [Incidently, isn't there >some trouble that the US State Dept. is trying to stir up over sale of >computer hardware to Finland? The usual idiocy..] None that I know of. We have never faced any trouble buying state-of-the-art computer hardware. If there has been any trouble, it is because some merchants have been overcautious from sheer ignorance! We have never had any trouble buying state-of-the-art computer hardware from the US (I'm writing this on a Hewlett-Packard 9000/840 RISC machine, published last year). -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! Jarmo Sorvari Control Engineering Laboratory ! ! ...!mcvax!tut.fi!jarmo Tampere University of Technology ! --------------------------------------- BOX 527, 33101 Tampere, Finland -----
fbaube@NOTE.NSF.GOV (Fred Baube) (10/26/87)
>>As I understand it, Finland has something less of a knee-jerk "Commies! >>Shoot Now!" mentality than elements of the US government --- with rail >>links, for example, it presumably has a rather more normal "this is my >>neighbour" policy than the xenophobes might prefer. >A perusal of your favorite European history book will reveal that during >its existence Finland has fought something like 40 wars with Russia and >lost every one. Their "this is my neighbour" policy, or rather their >"disinclination to offend my neighbour lest I get my a** kicked yet again" >policy, is understandable, but not enviable. Someone check me on this, but my impression is that Finland is about the only country the Soviets gave a more than fair shake to. The Soviets invaded Finland in the thirties, and the Finns made monkeys out of them. For whatever reason, after the war the Soviets were not as punitive as they could have been regarding territory claims. The Soviets kept the Petsamo peninsula, so that they now have a border with Norway, kept Vyborg (orig. Viipuri, which I read is now a ghost town), and kept a ring of land around Lake Ladoga, so as to reduce the threat from the Finnish navy :-). They could have taken more, but perhaps figured there's no point in humiliating a rebellious province (their Taiwan ?) that served as a window to the West.
fbaube@NOTE.NSF.GOV (Fred Baube) (10/27/87)
>>As I understand it, Finland has something less of a knee-jerk "Commies! >>Shoot Now!" mentality than elements of the US government --- with rail >>links, for example, it presumably has a rather more normal "this is my >>neighbour" policy than the xenophobes might prefer. >A perusal of your favorite European history book will reveal that during >its existence Finland has fought something like 40 wars with Russia and >lost every one. Their "this is my neighbour" policy, or rather their >"disinclination to offend my neighbour lest I get my a** kicked yet again" >policy, is understandable, but not enviable. Let us not attribute boundless evil to the Soviets. Someone check me on this, but my impression is that Finland is a (the only ?) country the Soviets gave a more than fair shake to. The Soviets invaded Finland in the thirties, and the Finns made monkeys out of them. For whatever reason, after the war the Soviets were not as greedy as they could have been regarding territory claims, even though the Finns had been close to the Nazis. The Soviets kept the Petsamo peninsula, so that they now border Norway, kept Vyborg (orig. Viipuri) which I read is now a ghost town, and kept a ring of land around Lake Ladoga, to fend off the Finnish navy :-). They could have taken more, but perhaps figured there's no point in humiliating a rebellious province (1917) that serves as a window to the West.
jamesd@percival.UUCP (James Deibele) (10/28/87)
In article <8710271119.aa21258@note.nsf.gov> fbaube@NOTE.NSF.GOV (Fred Baube) writes: >>>As I understand it, Finland has something less of a knee-jerk "Commies! > >Let us not attribute boundless evil to the Soviets. Someone check >me on this, but my impression is that Finland is a (the only ?) >country the Soviets gave a more than fair shake to. The Soviets >invaded Finland in the thirties, and the Finns made monkeys out >of them. For whatever reason, after the war the Soviets were not >as greedy as they could have been regarding territory claims, >navy :-). They could have taken more, but perhaps figured >there's no point in humiliating a rebellious province (1917) that >serves as a window to the West. Interesting. The Soviets are not "boundlessly evil" because they didn't take the whole country, just part. What would they have to do to be "boundlessly evil"? Kill millions of their citizens? Invade neighboring countries? Throw citizens in prison for the crime of wishing to leave? Use artists and scientists as guinea pigs for psychological drugs? And so forth and so on. You attribute selfish reasons to the Soviets for letting go of part of Finland---that they want an area where computers, etc. can be more easily slipped past export controls, where they have to put in yet another army of Occupation, where they have to worry about uprisings. None of that sounds very nice to me... -- James S. Deibele jamesd@qiclab or jamesd@percival TECHBooks: The Computer Book Specialists (800) TECH-BKS 3646 SE Division Portland, OR 97202 (503) 238-1005 TECHBooks One BBS (#1:105/4.0); 3/12/24 (503) 760-1473
eric@snark.UUCP ("Eric S. Raymond") (10/29/87)
Barry Shein lost his temper (again) and flamed at the 'radical right' for
flooding info-futures with drivel in re UUCP to RUSSIA. He has a point.
Some of them are quite as thickheaded on the subject as their leftist
mirror images. The whole line of argument that fears 'technology theft'
and contamination of our vital bodily fluids via the Net is strictly
from knee-jerk, good for laughs but not much else. No, the Reds are
not going to come roaring in over our phone wires at 9600 baud...
As a libertarian, I think UUCP to the Soviet Union is a great idea. Let's
face it, people -- they ain't gonna get any critical technical information
from it, and some of their people might have their eyes opened. The KGB have
enough active disinformation channels in this country's mass media to make
net.propaganda pretty pointless, so I'm not bothered about the other direction
either. And I'm generally in favor of more open and more non-state-controlled
communications.
This doesn't keep me from being appalled at the muddy-mindedness of people
who think, for example, that the quaint Soviet habit of requiring all
typewriters to be registered with the KGB is the moral equivalent of auto
registration in the U.S., or that a UUCP links to Soviet universities will
magically vanish or even significantly affect the level of tension between
the planet's two hugest welfare/warfare states.
Let's get real. I'd *like* the net to be that important, but it isn't yet.
My two cents worth is: let's do it, but let's not expect the world from it.
Eric S. Raymond
UUCP: {{seismo,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax,sdcrdcf!burdvax,vu-vlsi}!snark!eric
Post: 22 South Warren Avenue, Malvern, PA 19355 Phone: (215)-296-5718schiltz@csinn.uucp (Jean Pierre Schiltz) (10/30/87)
In article <116@karhu.tut.FI>, jarmo@tut.FI (Jarmo Sorvari) writes: > Alright, I'll buy this. I was worried that you meant quite the contrary by > being ideologically suitable; there is so much ignorance (mainly in the US, I > admit!) about how things are in Finland, that I may have become over-sensitive > about it! Can you tell us a little bit more about the relations between Finland and the rest of the world (both USSR and Western countries), or at least give a good book reference ? I think this conference will go crazy if no new material is brought in. I also would like to say that for me the discussion that is going on between American people sounds a little bit strange... The pros and cons of the soviet policy are for me not that different from the pros and cons of the US policy - not the same language, not the same methods, but probably the same purpose, right ? (Please replace US and Soviet by any name of an industrialized country trying to get money or goods from abroad. Include France in any place you want).
rupp@cod.NOSC.MIL (William L. Rupp) (11/03/87)
In article <148@magic.csinn.uucp> schiltz@csinn.uucp (Jean Pierre Schiltz) writes: > >I also would like to say that for me the discussion that is >going on between American people sounds a little bit strange... The pros and >cons of the soviet policy are for me not that different from the pros and >cons of the US policy - not the same language, not the same methods, but >probably the same purpose, right ? ..... -------- --- ---- ------- ----- Well, here at least is one example of a Eurpean who seems to have difficulty distinguishing the motives of an expansionist, undemocratic, closed society that has to steal ideas and technology from those of an open, democratic society that is about the only great power over the last century to *voluntarily relinquish territory*, and whose ideas, technology, and (for better or worse) values have been imitated in many parts of the world (including in some cases the other country we are speaking of). Certainly the motives of great powers will coincide in some areas. But I maintain that a moral equivalency is something that the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. do not have in common. Bill ====================================================================== I speak for myself, and not on behalf of any other person or organization .........................How's that, Gary? ======================================================================
andrew@trlamct.OZ.AU (Andrew Jennings) (11/08/87)
I know its now a dying subject on the mailing list, but at the risk of
inciting a flame war I cannot resist adding my small contribution.
Those who worry about security leakages across the net bely the fact that
many >highly< commercial organisations are on the net already. They
obviously have taken precautions to avoid losing valuable information.
Those who view the USSR as a nation of Darth Vaders worry me enormously. As
a non-American I worry about >both< the US and the USSR. For us the ideology
is not so important as the possibility of conflict.
Can't we simply accept one principle in this : there are no winners in a
possible conflict. Either both win or we all lose.
Given that obviously you guy's had better learn to live together. What better
way to learn about each other than over a computer network ? I thought the
game we were all in was to use technology to benefit >all< of us, not just
one country.
There is an interesting quote in my newspaper today :
" Today ittakes greater courage to fight for peace than it does
to prepare for war."
I know you are going to construe this as naive, wishful thinking etc. But
more and more it seems very pragmatic to me. Have you ever connsidered in
any detail how much damage it does to the American economy diverting all
that money, talent etc. into defence when you could be putting it to work
on commerce ? Why do >you< think the current Russian administration is so
concerned to reduce its defence spending ?
UUCP: ...!{uunet, mcvax, ucb-vision, ukc}!munnari!trlamct.trl!andrew
ARPA: andrew%trlamct.trl.oz@uunet.uu.net
Andrew Jennings AI Technology Telecom Australia Research Labs
..usual disclaimers apply ..
(Postmaster:- This mail has been acknowledged.)