molnar@utgpu.UUCP (10/29/87)
In article <8710280303.AA01116@bu-cs.BU.EDU> bzs@BU-CS.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) writes:
#
# I've decided that the anti-Soviet contingent has now grabbed
# info-futures and turned it into a cheap soap-box for their cause.
... Miscellaneous raving.
# I am seriously considering:
#
# a) Withdrawing info-futures from usenet distribution.
# b) Going to a digestified, edited format to restore order
# and eliminate this tripe.
#
# Of course, the radical right will claim "censorship" because in their
# small minds it is their *right* to reply with tons of their crap and
# co-opt any conversation they're not comfortable with.
#
# Sorry losers, we're just trying to reduce the *boredom* level. Feel
# free to start your own group.
Do you have any relatives behind the Iron Curtain? Have members of
you immediate family been tortured by Communist Secret Police?
It is my opinion that you have a poor grasp of reality. Outbursts and
threats like yours have no place on usenet.
--
Tom Molnar
Unix Systems Group, University of Toronto Computing Services.varol@mcvax.UUCP (10/30/87)
In article <1987Oct29.123647.13632@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu> molnar@gpu.utcs.UUCP (Tom Molnar) writes: > >In article <8710280303.AA01116@bu-cs.BU.EDU> bzs@BU-CS.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) writes: ># ># I've decided that the anti-Soviet contingent has now grabbed ># info-futures and turned it into a cheap soap-box for their cause. > >... Miscellaneous raving. > ># I am seriously considering: ># ># a) Withdrawing info-futures from usenet distribution. ># b) Going to a digestified, edited format to restore order ># and eliminate this tripe. ># ># Of course, the radical right will claim "censorship" because in their ># small minds it is their *right* to reply with tons of their crap and ># co-opt any conversation they're not comfortable with. ># ># Sorry losers, we're just trying to reduce the *boredom* level. Feel ># free to start your own group. > >Do you have any relatives behind the Iron Curtain? Have members of >you immediate family been tortured by Communist Secret Police? >It is my opinion that you have a poor grasp of reality. Outbursts and >threats like yours have no place on usenet. > >-- >Tom Molnar >Unix Systems Group, University of Toronto Computing Services. I agree with Tom's statements completely. I recently had some private correspondence with Mr Shein. It is my understanding that he does not regret his rude statements at all. I think it is a sad moment for the whole net when people like Mr Shein exercise their one-sided, politically naive, and insulting childnishness and banality at random. It is also a sad fact that he is *really* the original proposer of this group. We, as a whole, shall be in a much better position when we all start respecting each other's views, however different they may be from ours. I, on the other hand, won't let people like Mr Shein offend me or my views. Please, let's behave ourselves and just discuss like civilized people. Hope this works. Varol Akman, CWI, Amsterdam What is an individual? A very good question. So good, in fact, that we should not try to answer it. - DANA SCOTT
rupp@cod.NOSC.MIL (William L. Rupp) (10/31/87)
-------------- In article <1987Oct29.123647.13632@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu> molnar@gpu.utcs.UUCP (Tom Molnar) writes: >Do you have any relatives behind the Iron Curtain? Have members of >you immediate family been tortured by Communist Secret Police? >It is my opinion that you have a poor grasp of reality. > >Tom Molnar That is what disturbs me, namely that the enormity of Soviet brutality and hostility to individual freedom is badly underestimated by many people in the West today. A system that stubbornly refuses to change, even when change is almost universally seen to be in the best long-term interest of its people, is ominous. When that system represents such a large percent of the world population, land mass, and military might, that fact is frightening. We can and should try to work to bring all nations together in peace and cooperation. But blinding ourselves to the reality that some nations are much more committed to human freedoms than others will not further that aim. Sorry, if that seems political, maybe I should have bitten my tongue. I certainly *would* have bitten my tongue if I were a Soviet citizen. Speaking out over there is much riskier. Bill ====================================================================== I speak for myself, and not on behalf of any other person or organization .........................How's that, Gary? ======================================================================
jdd@utcsri.UUCP (11/03/87)
I'm worried that a UUCP connection to the soviet union may endanger the
welfare of soviet citizens, in that they may experience persecution by the
state because of an opinion they publicize on the net. Unfortunately,
extreme censorship is practiced in the Soviet Union, and someone who expresses
an opinion contrary to the wishes of the state is liable to be harrassed,
fined, or even inprisoned. At best, their names will be recorded in various
lists of 'suspected unpatriotic citizens'. This is not unfounded allegation -
I know of people who have experienced this, and I can provide some references
to books written by various Soviet (and sattelite country) emigres attesting
to this type of intellectual totalitarianism.
Usenet is a forum for free discussion and the posting of messages
containing almost any opinion at all is tolerated and even encouraged. Is it
possible for the net to remain true to its ideal of openness, personal
responsibility, and freedom if a node exists where those participating in
discussions are not free to express their own opinions without governmental
persecution?
I myself would feel terrible if some discussion I initiated led to the
arrest and prosecution of some Soviet citizen.
John
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John DiMarco Disclaimer: I take complete responsibility for
anything I have written above.
jdd@csri.toronto.edu The University of Toronto can in no
ihnp4!utzoo!utcsri!jdd way be responsible for anything I say.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------rick@svedberg.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) (11/06/87)
In article <5612@utcsri.UUCP>, jdd@utcsri.UUCP (John D. DiMarco) writes: > >I'm worried that a UUCP connection to the soviet union may endanger the >welfare of soviet citizens, in that they may experience persecution by the >state because of an opinion they publicize on the net. Unfortunately, >extreme censorship is practiced in the Soviet Union and someone who expresses >an opinion contrary to the wishes of the state is liable to be harrassed, >fined, or even inprisoned. At best, their names will be recorded in various >lists of 'suspected unpatriotic citizens'. Computer resources in the USSR are very tightly controlled and are usually not available to private citizens. Anyone you correspond with will be talking as an offical of the USSR and will expressed approved opinions only. Make no mistake that it will be read and approved by KGB sources as well. In any event, a link like this would be interesting since we could at least be exposed to the offical line on topics.
decot@hpisod2.HP.COM (Dave Decot) (11/10/87)
> I for one agree and do hope you with draw info-futures from netnews > distribution. This person finds the discussion about opening channels > to belligerent countries right in line with a view of the world as > a global community. > > Cyro Lord I'm not sure I understand. Which person? Cyro? Barry? If you mean "I find...", that would be less confusing. Is a view of the world as a global community supposed to be a terrible idea? A (dare I say it) "socialistic" idea? "Oh heavens! The thought of actually talking somebody from such a place. Unimaginable. Unthinkable. Stop it at once!" Dave Decot hpda!decot