jmichael@cod.NOSC.MIL (James A. Michael) (04/12/88)
Thomas Sarver concludes his posting, >I suggest that anarchists simply inject their opinions >throughout the net in >every newsgroup they find interesting. >Thomas Sarver Based on my observations of the Net, I believe that this is currently what is happening, and I don't see the need for a group devoted to "Anarchists." Jim Michael ARPA: jmichael@nosc.mil (preferred) UUCP: {ihnp4,ucbvax,dcdwest,seismo}!sdcsvax!nosc!cod!jmichael
hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu (|-|ugh) (04/13/88)
In article <1057@cod.NOSC.MIL> jmichael@cod.NOSC.MIL (James A. Michael) writes: }>I suggest that anarchists simply inject their opinions }>throughout the net in }>every newsgroup they find interesting. }Based on my observations of the Net, I believe that this is }currently what is happening, and I don't see the need for a group }devoted to "Anarchists." It's a facile cliche to say that the net is anarchy, chaos etc. However, a mailing list for anarchism would be useful for discussing practical problems of setting up or making the transition to an anarchic society, e.g. how would such a society survive when surrounded by nation-states, how would it protect its cultural and historical heritage, etc. At least that's the kind of question I would want to see discussed. P.S. If the original proposer of the mailing list is reading this - did you add my name to the list? Hugh Dunne | UUCP: ..{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne Dept. of Math. | Phone: | ARPA: hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu Univ. of Arizona | +1 602 621 4766 | Bitnet: hdunne@arizrvax Tucson AZ 85721 | +1 602 621 6893 | Internet: hdunne@rvax.ccit.arizona.edu
tws@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Thomas Sarver) (04/17/88)
In article <551@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu> hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu (|-|ugh) writes: >It's a facile cliche to say that the net is anarchy, chaos etc. However, a >mailing list for anarchism would be useful for discussing practical problems >of setting up or making the transition to an anarchic society, e.g. how would >such a society survive when surrounded by nation-states, how would it protect >its cultural and historical heritage, etc. At least that's the kind of >question I would want to see discussed. So what we are really talking about is not a newsgroup for anarchists but one for those who like to *TALK* about anarchy. One escapes the self-contradiction of anarchists tying themselves to the implications of being in a newsgroup by saying that these people aren't really anarchists. By stating "I wish to join this newsgroup in order to discuss Anarchy," one is avoiding saying "I am an anarchist that wishes to use an implictly rule-ordered system in order to discuss my beliefs with other anarchists." I believe that the newsgroup would interesting, and I, therefore, would like to be placed on the mailing list. Thank you, --Thomas Sarver "There is an inverse relation to the level of public education in a given country and its birthrate. If they're in school, they have less time to fool around."
dbc5390@acf5.NYU.EDU (David B. Chorlian) (04/18/88)
Thomas Sarver, in his recent comments on anarchism, makes the mistake of thinking that anarchists are opposed to order (and thereby favor chaos). Rather anarchists propose order based on coordination and cooperation, rather than on heirarchy and coercion. To what extent this is possible is an open question, but let's get the question straight. David B. Chorlian dbc5390@acf5.nyu.edu "What is now proved was once only imagined." --Wm. Blake
hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu (|-|ugh) (04/19/88)
In article <14925@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> tws@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Thomas Sarver) writes: }So what we are really talking about is not a newsgroup for anarchists but one }for those who like to *TALK* about anarchy. One escapes the self-contradiction }of anarchists tying themselves to the implications of being in a newsgroup by }saying that these people aren't really anarchists. By stating "I wish to join }this newsgroup in order to discuss Anarchy," one is avoiding saying "I am an }anarchist that wishes to use an implictly rule-ordered system in order to }discuss my beliefs with other anarchists." The contradiction arises only from your false perception of an anarchist as someone who will not submit to any discipline whatever. If anarchists were like this, they would soon wipe themselves out driving on the wrong side of the road. Actually, anarchists are a diverse bunch with the common thread that they believe that nation-states are an anachronism, a relic of feudal kingdoms which must wither away before human freedom and potential can be fully realised. Talking about anarchism does not preclude being an anarchist, and slinking around in dark alleys with a bomb under your trench-coat is not a prerequisite. Personally I don't consider myself a "card-carrying" anarchist. Ideally the state could be dispensed with though I'm not sure it could work in practice. However I'm interested in hearing arguments to the contrary. Since the proposed mailing list which started all this hasn't materialized yet, why not discuss this here. After all, anarchism (as opposed to "anarchy") is one possible option for future societies. Hugh Dunne | UUCP: ..{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne Dept. of Math. | Phone: | ARPA: hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu Univ. of Arizona | +1 602 621 4766 | Bitnet: hdunne@arizrvax Tucson AZ 85721 | +1 602 621 6893 | Internet: hdunne@rvax.ccit.arizona.edu
ken@cs.rochester.edu (Ken Yap) (04/19/88)
What's in a name? I usually look up my dictionary when people argue over words. Here's what my dictionary (McQuarie) says about anarchy: 1. a state of society without government or law. 2. political and social disorder due to absence of governmental control. 3. absence of government or governmental restraint. 4. a theory which regards the union of order with the absence of all direct or coercive government as the political ideal. 5. confusion in general; disorder. [Gk. anarchia lack of a ruler] And about anarchism: 1. the doctrine (advocated under various forms) urging the abolition of government and governmental restraint as the indispensable condition of political and social liberty. 2. the methods or practices of anarchists. An interesting article I read in IEEE Transactions on Professional Communications discusses the case of Lister's word "antiseptic". The current medical theory of his day was that sepsis was something that happened to wounds spontaneously. Lister understood that carbolic acid killed the micro-organisms that caused sepsis, but people didn't understand what was novel about his method and thought the carbolic acid did something to the flesh to prevent sepsis. Lister's unfortunate choice of nomenclature delayed recognition of his contribution. Perhaps if he had used the word "aseptic" or even "antibiotic"... Ken
sullivan@vsi.UUCP (Michael T Sullivan) (04/20/88)
In article <572@acf5.NYU.EDU>, dbc5390@acf5.NYU.EDU (David B. Chorlian) writes: > > favor chaos). Rather anarchists propose order based on coordination > and cooperation, rather than on heirarchy and coercion. To what Does this mean that if I believe in anarchy based on chaos I'm not an anarchist? Does this mean that all anarchists believe in order and cooperation? What does one have to believe to be an anarchist? -- Michael Sullivan {uunet|attmail}!vsi!sullivan sullivan@vsi.com HE V MTL
federico@actisb.UUCP (Federico Heinz) (04/21/88)
In article <565@vsi.UUCP> sullivan@vsi.UUCP (Michael T Sullivan) writes: >In article <572@acf5.NYU.EDU>, dbc5390@acf5.NYU.EDU (David B. Chorlian) writes: >> favor chaos). Rather anarchists propose order based on coordination >> and cooperation, rather than on heirarchy and coercion. To what > >Does this mean that if I believe in anarchy based on chaos I'm not >an anarchist? Does this mean that all anarchists believe in order >and cooperation? What does one have to believe to be an anarchist? Just take it easy and dont't beleive in anything. That's all it takes. I think you'll settle for cooperation sooner or later. -- Federico Heinz "In Dubio Pro Libido" BIX: fheinz | Beusselstr. 21 UUCP: ...!unido!tub!actisb!federico | 1000 Berlin 21 Tel: (030) 396 77 92 | F.R. Germany.
fbaube@NOTE.NSF.GOV (Fred Baube) (04/23/88)
Michael T Sullivan writes: > Does this mean that if I believe in anarchy based on chaos I'm not > an anarchist? Does this mean that all anarchists believe in order > and cooperation? What does one have to believe to be an anarchist? Nothing, really, not even that human beings are incapable of organizing a complex society without a State, or that State- lessness equates to chaos. That's the point. Cooperation, collaboration, coordination, all imply organic structures grounded in an awareness that organizations tend to become self-serving, exploitative organisms. That's simple MBA stuff .. institutions seeks to control their environments, and if they have guns and badges, that just makes it easier. The US of A has things half right (the glass is half-full). (Usual disclaimer, and apologies re. politicizing info-futures) ------
sullivan@vsi.UUCP (Michael T Sullivan) (04/23/88)
In article <206@actisb.UUCP>, federico@actisb.UUCP (Federico Heinz) writes: > In article <565@vsi.UUCP> sullivan@vsi.UUCP (Michael T Sullivan) writes: > >In article <572@acf5.NYU.EDU>, dbc5390@acf5.NYU.EDU (David B. Chorlian) writes: > >> favor chaos). Rather anarchists propose order based on coordination > >> and cooperation, rather than on heirarchy and coercion. To what > > > >Does this mean that if I believe in anarchy based on chaos I'm not > >an anarchist? Does this mean that all anarchists believe in order > >and cooperation? What does one have to believe to be an anarchist? > Just take it easy and dont't beleive in anything. That's all it takes. > I think you'll settle for cooperation sooner or later. In the beginning there was anarchy. Then there was cooperation. Then there were governments. Why does anyone think it will happen differently if we go with anarchy again. (Wait a second. Could this be something for the anarchist mailing list I am trying to ridicule? NOOOOOOO!!!!) -- Michael Sullivan {uunet|attmail}!vsi!sullivan sullivan@vsi.com HE V MTL
rbj%icst-cmr.ARPA@BU-IT.BU.EDU (Root Boy Jim) (04/27/88)
"There is an inverse relation to the level of public education in a given country and its birthrate. If they're in school, they have less time to fool around." Before I got married, I did most of my fooling around *in* school. More so than when I became employed. (Root Boy) Jim Cottrell <rbj@icst-cmr.arpa> National Bureau of Standards Flamer's Hotline: (301) 975-5688 The opinions expressed are solely my own and do not reflect NBS policy or agreement Now my EMOTIONAL RESOURCES are heavily committed to 23% of the SMELTING and REFINING industry of the state of NEVADA!!