jmb@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John M Boof) (01/12/89)
Although I've just read this group for 3 days, it seems a suggested topic of changes to keyboards is an appropriate topic. Much on this group doesn't seem to fit the group though... Anyway, One thing that bothers me about keyboards is having to move my hands from their base points (heels). Why can't the keyboard fit my fingers so that I don't have to move my hand around and lose its orientation? The shift key particularly bothers me. Why do I have to occupy half (for me) of one hand just to shift the letters typed in my other hand? It seems a miracle to me that someone had the sense to make the space bar easily accessable. The shift (bar) should be just as easily accessable. The keyboard would fit my fingers' reach better by being concave instead of flat. And why do I have to push down to hit the keys? Shouldn't any direction of movement on the key cause it to register? And why can't joy-stick or thumb-wheel ideas be applied to the cursor controls on the keyboard itself? Why do we still have this awkward and difficult interface to deal with? This type of input device should be archaic by now. I deal with keyboards and terminals when I deal with computers, and I hate both! Who decided that 22 lines was the best amount of text to look at at one time?? And who decided that a mouse should travel accross my pads of paper, or require a "mouse pad" to use? I can hardly believe it is almost 1990 and we are still dealing with these pitifully unefficient and difficult devices. Ideas on gloves and all and its application to virtual keyboards is all very interesting. But what I want to see is something I can use (& afford) today, tomorrow, next summer, next year. When is the last time a major computer release included any major changes to the input devices or the screens? The engineering behind these changes would be relatively simple, but it seems nobody has taken the time to design better ones or the faith to put it on the market with their major products. Perhaps we could, as a group, describe the upgraded keyboard, design the best compromise of all suggestions, and ask some of the major computer companies to listen to what we want. At least I would like to see what the keyboard (if it even would look like a keyboard still) would be like. ...JMBoof (no cute signatures) jmb@beach.cis.ufl.edu, boof@ufpine.bitnet, uucp: let's play Marco-Polo!
jbush@ficc.uu.net (james bush) (01/13/89)
In article <19626@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>, jmb@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John M Boof) writes: > ... > Perhaps we could, as a group, describe the upgraded keyboard, design the > best compromise of all suggestions, and ask some of the major computer > companies to listen to what we want. At least I would like to see what the > keyboard (if it even would look like a keyboard still) would be like. (As one jmb to another :-) I just thought of some wild ideas in "keyboards" 1. A 8-10 key keyboard, where the hands do not have to leave the keys. Several possible (and some current!) ways of doing this. (eg. combinations of keys or multiple ways of striking.) 2. Put a shift, control, and possibly alternate on one of the thumbs, with the space bar on the other. Keep only 3 rows of keys. Have the rows so that no major shifting of fingers is required. 3. Get a good voice interface. -- James Bush, Ferranti, Houston The Bible - the "source code" of life "Righteousness exalts a nation,but sin is a disgrace to any people." Prov. 14:34 Internal: jbush,5230, mail A/3204, room A/3602 External: ..!uunet!ficc!jbush All opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer.
jeffd@ficc.uu.net (jeff daiell) (01/14/89)
In article <2720@ficc.uu.net>, jbush@ficc.uu.net (james bush) writes: > > I just thought of some wild ideas in "keyboards" > > 3. Get a good voice interface. > -- Such as? I mean, they were working on voice-driven typewriters when I was in elementary school, but how far as the technology advanced? I have *not* kept up with this aspect at all, so I'm not sure whether you were being serious or facetious. (Forgive my ignorance, Jim!) If you were serious, what is the price range? And how much would such a thing cost? Jeff Daiell INDEPENDENCE FOR TEXAS! -- "You should see me when I'm rested." -- from "Brigadoon"
jbush@ficc.uu.net (james bush) (01/14/89)
In article <2724@ficc.uu.net>, jeffd@ficc.uu.net (jeff daiell) writes: > In article <2720@ficc.uu.net>, jbush@ficc.uu.net (james bush) writes: > > 3. Get a good voice interface. > ... so I'm not > sure whether you were being serious or facetious. (Forgive my > ignorance, Jim!) ... 1. I was serious. 2. I do not know what is available. I would be interested in knowing, however. (I think someone posted an article on this recently.) 3. "Get" means develop, not "why don't you buy". -- James Bush, Ferranti, Houston The Bible - the "source code" of life "Righteousness exalts a nation,but sin is a disgrace to any people." Prov. 14:34 Internal: jbush,5230, mail A/3204, room A/3602 External: ..!uunet!ficc!jbush All opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer.
jrk@s1.sys.uea.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) (01/14/89)
In article <19626@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jmb@beach.cis.ufl.edu () writes: > >One thing that bothers me about keyboards is having to move my hands from >their base points (heels). Why can't the keyboard fit my fingers so that I >don't have to move my hand around and lose its orientation? A few years ago, in one of the computer rags, I saw an article about such a keyboard. It had the keys laid out so as (it was claimed) to fit the hands better. Instead of being in straight rows on a plane, they were arranged roughly in two clusters around the positions of the hands, in such a way as to minimise the amount of hand and finger movement required. Not a straight line in sight. It looked like something designed by Dali. I cant remember any more details. Does anyone recognise this? Was it ever commercially produced? Would too little hand motion be as fatiguing as too much? >...JMBoof >(no cute signatures) >jmb@beach.cis.ufl.edu, boof@ufpine.bitnet, uucp: let's play Marco-Polo! -- Richard Kennaway SYS, University of East Anglia, Norwich, U.K. uucp: ...mcvax!ukc!uea-sys!jrk Janet: kennaway@uk.ac.uea.sys
webb@leadsv.UUCP (J.J. Webb) (01/15/89)
What is the machine that a court stenographer uses to keep a trial
transcript? The keyboard on that device might be perfect for the
keyboard of the future. How does the thing work? Could it be easily
adapted to computers? I think the thing only has 10 or 12 keys.
...jjwebb...jdb9608@ultb.UUCP (J.D. Beutel ) (01/16/89)
In article <315@s1.sys.uea.ac.uk> jrk@uea-sys.UUCP (Richard Kennaway) writes: > >A few years ago, in one of the computer rags, I saw an article about such a >keyboard. It had the keys laid out so as (it was claimed) to fit the hands >better. Instead of being in straight rows on a plane, they were arranged >roughly in two clusters around the positions of the hands, in such a way >as to minimise the amount of hand and finger movement required. Not a >straight line in sight. It looked like something designed by Dali. I cant >remember any more details. Does anyone recognise this? Was it ever >commercially produced? >-- >Richard Kennaway SYS, University of East Anglia, Norwich, U.K. Yes, I remember something about that in some magazine some years ago (altho I'm *some*what lacking in really useful information). The two clusters of keys were oriented at an angle. Simply bending both ends of the keyboard away from the typist in a V-shape was said to improve the typist's comfort because when you bring your hands together to type (as I stare at my hands now to verify this datam) they form an angle of about 30 degrees, as opposed to the 0 degree angle imposed by a normal keyboard with its keys that are situated in a straight line. Such a design should be a better ergonomically whether or not the keys are in a qwerty arrangement. Speaking of different keyboards, my Atari ST (and perhaps other computers as well) has a keyboard map that allows the user to assign any value to any key. I could make mine a Dvorak keyboard, but then when I went to the computer lab I would have to use qwerty again--it would be too confusing; I can barely handle keeping track of the ctrl key being different as it is now. A solution would be to have a tty driver that will map keys. The user could define what map he or she wants to use, like a termcap, and then no matter what terminal he or she uses, the keyboard is whatever he or she wants. No hardware would be affected, and the solution would allow a uniform and personal choice of a Dvorak or other such change-the-names-of-the-keys-but- don't-actually-move-any-around type keyboard. I think such a tty driver would need only two changes from ones used now: 1) enable it to read a key map 2) any char it recieves is used as an offset into the key map to determin the char that is passed along--i.e., translate A problem would be that reading a key map from disk every key stroke would be very inefficient, so the key map would need to be kept in memory with the tty device driver. However, since each user might have a different key map, the device driver would need an array of key maps (less than or equal to 128*2 bytes per user record), or perhaps a limited number of pre-defined keyboard types corresponding to a user-modifiable minor device number? Are there any Un*x gurus out there that would care to comment on the feasability of such an improvement to the tty driver? -- 11011011_____jdb9608@ritcv.UUCP_____prefered==>__jdb9608@ritvax.BITNET
morrison@ficc.uu.net (Brad Morrison) (01/17/89)
In article <315@s1.sys.uea.ac.uk>, jrk@s1.sys.uea.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) writes: > A few years ago, in one of the computer rags, I saw an article about such a > keyboard. It had the keys laid out so as (it was claimed) to fit the hands > better. Instead of being in straight rows on a plane, they were arranged > roughly in two clusters around the positions of the hands, in such a way > as to minimise the amount of hand and finger movement required. Not a > straight line in sight. It looked like something designed by Dali. I cant > remember any more details. Does anyone recognise this? Was it ever > commercially produced? > Sounds like the TRON keyboard, by that Japanese chap, who'd redone everything from the ALU to the keyboard, including the OS. Speaking of future developments, has anyone heard more about TRON? -- grep me no patterns and | Brad Morrison (713) 274-5449 I'll tell you no lines | uunet!ficc!morrison morrison@ficc.uu.net
jbn@glacier.STANFORD.EDU (John B. Nagle) (01/18/89)
Curved keyboards are an idea that comes around every once in a while. I've actually seen one at Haltek, the electronic surplus store in Mountain View. But there was no documentation. John Nagle
anand@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Anand Iyengar) (01/20/89)
In article <292@ultb.UUCP> jdb9608@ultb.UUCP (J.D. Beutel (713ICS)) writes: >A solution would be to have a tty driver that will map keys. The user could ... >No hardware would be affected, and the solution would allow a uniform and >personal choice of a Dvorak or other such change-the-names-of-the-keys-but- >don't-actually-move-any-around type keyboard. > >I think such a tty driver would need only two changes from ones used now: > 1) enable it to read a key map > 2) any char it recieves is used as an offset into the key map to > determin the char that is passed along--i.e., translate > >A problem would be that reading a key map from disk every key stroke would be >very inefficient, so the key map would need to be kept in memory with the tty >device driver. However, since each user might have a different key map, >the device driver would need an array of key maps (less than or equal to >128*2 bytes per user record), or perhaps a limited number of pre-defined >keyboard types corresponding to a user-modifiable minor device number? > >Are there any Un*x gurus out there that would care to comment on the >feasability of such an improvement to the tty driver? For a number of reasons, the modifications shouldn't really be put in the tty driver, but since we're using unix it doesn't have to be. Some time ago I wrote some code that does what you describe: remaps kb input according to a mapping file (for exactly that reason: I wanted a Dvorak keyboard, and the only terminals in the building that supported s dvorak KB layout got locked up at midnight. I either had to write some simple code to remap keys, or change my work schedule. Not a difficult choice...). At first I tried forking off a shell, and subsituting a pipe for stdin. Fair idea, but the shell (shells, actually, I tried csh and tcsh) was somewhat flakey about reading from non-tty's. No big deal...the source for _script_ (which, by definition does everything a (non-console) tty does) + very minor changes (I had less than an hour to spend on it) met the specs. I've been told that since the script that I used is BSD-code I can give away this source. So: If you would like the code, send me mail (anand@vax1.acs.udel.edu: see below) with your e-mail address, and I'll re-mail the source to you. You'll need a C compiler. Anand. -- {arpa | bit}net: anand@vax1.acs.udel.edu (<- prefer), iyengar@udel.edu csnet: iyengar%udel.edu@relay.cs.net uucp: ->unidot ->!cfg!udel!udccvax1!anand ->uunet -/ ->!harvard ->udel.edu!iyengar ->!allegra!berkeley -/