sullivan@aqdata.uucp (Michael T. Sullivan) (01/11/90)
From article <9001102206.AA04989@gslisf.lis.uiuc.edu>, by hoetker@GSLISF.LIS.UIUC.EDU (Glenn Hoetker): > > Fax has been an incredible step backwards. People sit at their word- > processors and create computer-readable materials, then print it out in order > to turn it into a non-computer readable fax message! This will eventually either > change or be superceeded. Okay, here I go: fax IS electronic mail. What do you want electronic mail to do? Send whatever you want to send "instantaneously" to wherever you want to send it, yes? Just because it usually comes out hardcopy doesn't mean it's not electronic mail; it doesn't have to come out hardcopy. This email stuff we are using now can come out hardcopy but it doesn't because it is set up that way. There are many different types of electonic mail and fax must be considered one of them. And about generating stuff electronically then faxing it: the idea that all fax messages come from word processors, or even computers, is ludicrous. Can you "email" handwritten notes? No. Can you "email" articles out of the newspaper without re-typing them by hand? No. Fax is in no way an "incredible step backwards". Actually, if people used to using faxes were told they could only use "email", they would most likely feel that "email" was an incredible step backwards. -- Michael Sullivan uunet!jarthur!aqdata!sullivan aQdata, Inc. sullivan@aqdata.uucp San Dimas, CA
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (01/12/90)
FAX *is* a step backwards.
Can you FAX a program, or other document that you need in computer
readable form? Conveniently? Reliably?
Well, yes. By using the FAX modem as half-duplex modem and doing
conventional electronic mail over it. But now it's not FAX any more.
I think we need to expand UUCP very slightly, so you can send
mail to a telephone number: standardise a login name (email), no
password, and allow anonymous email at that account. Now email
is as convenient as FAX, for what Email is good for. And with
the right sort of modem, one that can speak FAX protocol as well
as normal async ascii, you have one number people can send you
FAX and Email to.
--
_--_|\ Peter da Silva. +1 713 274 5180. <peter@ficc.uu.net>.
/ \ also, <peter@+17134385018.phone>.
\_.--._/ Xenix Support -- it's not just a job, it's an adventure!
v "Have you hugged your wolf today?" `-_-'
-- evanh@sco.COM (Evan A.C. Hunt) (01/12/90)
I am for you, sullivan@aqdata.uucp (Michael T. Sullivan). >And about generating stuff electronically then faxing it: the idea that >all fax messages come from word processors, or even computers, is ludicrous. >Can you "email" handwritten notes? No. Can you "email" articles out of the >newspaper without re-typing them by hand? No. Fax is in no way an >"incredible step backwards". I quite agree. Most important to the business community: Can you email a signature on a contract? No. On the other hand, fax _is_ frequently used for things to which email would be equally well suited. It would be a step forward if email got as broad an acceptance in business as fax machines currently have. -- Evan A.C. Hunt evanh@sco.COM The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. uunet!sco!evanh (408) 425-7222 evanh%sco.COM@ucscc.ucsc.EDU
sullivan@aqdata.uucp (Michael T. Sullivan) (01/13/90)
From article <9Z=962xds13@ficc.uu.net>, by peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva): > FAX *is* a step backwards. > > Can you FAX a program, or other document that you need in computer > readable form? Conveniently? Reliably? That's not a fair question as FAX isn't meant to do that. Can you send scanned images via email to my ascii terminal? Of course not because it's not meant to do that. FAX isn't supposed to be a tool to make programmers lives easier and it's not meant to be all things to all people but it is fulfilling the needs of millions of people (read: end users) which email sure isn't doing. Put in a different way, FAX is meeting customer expectations. Whether those expectations have all the bells and whistles you would like as a programmer doesn't matter. It is what the customer wants. If email was what the customer wanted it would have caught on as quickly as FAX (9600 Group III FAX, that is). -- Michael Sullivan uunet!jarthur!aqdata!sullivan aQdata, Inc. sullivan@aqdata.uucp San Dimas, CA
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (01/13/90)
From: uunet!apple.com!usc!jarthur!aqdata!sullivan (Michael T. Sullivan) >>From article <9Z=962xds13@ficc.uu.net>, by peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva): >> FAX *is* a step backwards. >> >> Can you FAX a program, or other document that you need in computer >> readable form? Conveniently? Reliably? > >That's not a fair question as FAX isn't meant to do that. Can you send >scanned images via email to my ascii terminal? Of course not because it's >not meant to do that. FAX isn't supposed to be a tool to make >programmers lives easier and it's not meant to be all things to all >people but it is fulfilling the needs of millions of people (read: end >users) which email sure isn't doing. Well, the truth as usual lies somewhere in-between. In the first place I'm not sure why these discussions take on such an either/or flavor, as if it's inconceivable that an office would have use for both a fax or fax-like communications method and e-mail. I think that's a specious assumption, I also can't make voice calls on my postage meter, etc. According to DATAPRO the market for electronic mail software was around $400M recently and is expected to grow past $1B in the early 1990's. It's a little extreme to declare the death of either medium although there is certainly some sense in trying to combine their similar services. -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die, Purveyors to the Trade | bzs@world.std.com 1330 Beacon St, Brookline, MA 02146, (617) 739-0202 | {xylogics,uunet}world!bzs
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (01/14/90)
> > FAX *is* a step backwards. > > Can you FAX a program, or other document that you need in computer > > readable form? Conveniently? Reliably? > That's not a fair question as FAX isn't meant to do that. Can you send > scanned images via email to my ascii terminal? [etc] Sure, FAX does things that Email can't do as easily. But you can uuencode images and send them via Email. You can do the same with sampled sounds, songs, color & 3-d images, and so on. Making this as easy as FAX is a SMOP. Well, a LMOP. But you know what I mean. I'm basically responding here to the implication that Email is dead, and FAX has replaced it. So long as we need to do things other than sending images we need something other than FAX. And if you extend FAX enough to allow those sorts of things it'll just become a new channel for Email. An expensive one. -- _--_|\ Peter da Silva. +1 713 274 5180. <peter@ficc.uu.net>. / \ \_.--._/ Xenix Support -- it's not just a job, it's an adventure! v "Have you hugged your wolf today?" `-_-'
ifarqhar@mqccsunc.mqcc.mq.OZ (Ian Farquhar) (01/15/90)
In article <1314@scorn.sco.COM> evanh@sco.COM (Evan A.C. Hunt) writes: > >I am for you, sullivan@aqdata.uucp (Michael T. Sullivan). >>And about generating stuff electronically then faxing it: the idea that >>all fax messages come from word processors, or even computers, is ludicrous. >>Can you "email" handwritten notes? No. Can you "email" articles out of the >>newspaper without re-typing them by hand? No. Fax is in no way an >>"incredible step backwards". It is not a step backwards, but it is not a step forwards either. It is sort of a side-step. Given the poor implementation of e-mail, and the truly attrocious fax standard, it is impossible to say which is better. [Evan's comments continue, refering to Michael's original statement] > I quite agree. Most important to the business community: Can >you email a signature on a contract? No. Can you make a faxed signature legally binding? Not in many countries, as the resolution is too low to make definative handwriting verification possible. > On the other hand, fax _is_ frequently used for things to which >email would be equally well suited. It would be a step forward if email >got as broad an acceptance in business as fax machines currently have. It has always seemed to me that fax and e-mail are practically the same thing anyway. Faxes are just an e-mail standard for sending images. Not, the enterprising standards arbitrators (hows that for a contradiction in terms?) should be able to marry the two technologies quite simply. +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | Ian Farquhar | Phone : (02) 805-7420 (STD) | | Microcomputer Support | (612) 805-7420 (ISD) | | Office of Computing Services | Fax : (02) 805-7433 (STD) | | Macquarie University NSW 2109 | (612) 805-7433 (ISD) | | Australia | Also : 805-7205 | +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ "A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist." Sir Humphrey Appleby (Patron Saint of Public Servants) Yes, Minister. Yes, Prime Minister. +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | Ian Farquhar | Phone : (02) 805-7420 (STD) | | Microcomputer Support | (612) 805-7420 (ISD) | | Office of Computing Services | Fax : (02) 805-7433 (STD) | | Macquarie University NSW 2109 | (612) 805-7433 (ISD) | | Australia | Also : 805-7205 | +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ D
dennis@CPAC.WASHINGTON.EDU (Dennis Gentry) (01/16/90)
Date: 15 Jan 90 11:44:59 GMT From: uw-beaver!harvard!think.com!samsung!munnari.oz.au!cluster!metro!natmlab.dap.csiro.au!ditsyda!macuni!mqccsunc!ifarqhar (Ian Farquhar) Organization: Macquarie University, Sydney References: <9001102206.AA04989@gslisf.lis.uiuc.edu>, <1990Jan11.011847.9092@aqdata.uucp>, <1314@scorn.sco.COM> [Evan's comments continue, refering to Michael's original statement] > I quite agree. Most important to the business community: Can >you email a signature on a contract? No. Can you make a faxed signature legally binding? Not in many countries, as the resolution is too low to make definative handwriting verification possible. I purchased a house here in Washington with my brother who lives in California. It would not have been possible without the ability to fax signatures on documents. The deal closed with original signatures, which had been express mailed, but there were many preliminary documents for which a fax signature was perfectly acceptable. Dennis (dennis@cpac.washington.edu)
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (01/17/90)
> Can you make a faxed signature legally binding? Not in many countries, > as the resolution is too low to make definative handwriting verification > possible. This story may be apocryphal but perhaps someone on this list knows the source: I have heard a few times that the first "faxes" were signature facsimiles and transmitted via telegraph lines over 100 years ago, something like a pen moving here and a pen moving there in order to create a remote, binding signature. Anyone know if it's true? -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die, Purveyors to the Trade | bzs@world.std.com 1330 Beacon St, Brookline, MA 02146, (617) 739-0202 | {xylogics,uunet}world!bzs