spam@clutx.clarkson.edu (Roger Gonzalez,,,) (11/27/88)
Could people please email me a list of neural "mechanisms" that are probably hard-wired into humans (or other critters). I'm looking for things like pain, sexual/maternal(?) attraction, curiosity, urge to survive, etc. ... things that are not learned. I'm working in neural networks, and I'm basically looking at (for example) the future problem of a very unmotivated simu-beast. I decided that I should probably give it curiosity for starters or something similar to make it want to explore. Any help would be appreciated. --------------------- Roger Gonzalez spam@clutx.clarkson.edu
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (11/29/88)
In article <1753@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> spam@clutx.clarkson.edu (Roger Gonzalez) wrote: >Could people please email me a list of neural "mechanisms" that >are probably hard-wired into humans (or other critters). I'm >looking for things like pain, sexual/maternal(?) attraction, >curiosity, urge to survive, etc. ... things that are not learned. >I'm working in neural networks, and I'm basically looking at (for example) >the future problem of a very unmotivated simu-beast. I decided that >I should probably give it curiosity for starters or something similar >to make it want to explore. Any help would be appreciated. The best starting point in my opinion would be Skinnerian behaviorism. The basic mechanisms of operant conditioning have been found in all animals capable of emitting operants, and so are the closest thing we know to a "hard-wired" basis of behavior. Of course, it takes at least one semester of graduate-level study to really understand operant conditioning, so don't expect to be able to jump right in and start coding. Also remember that any simulation which does *not* obey the rules of operant conditioning will not be an accurate simulation of an animal. On a related point that's been brought up in this discussion, I think some people are getting confused on some developmental points. The fact that we can interrupt the development of a behavior does not mean the behavior is purely learned. The classic example involves the kitten in a harness experiments; if kittens aren't allowed to wander, but are kept in a harness through certain phases of development, then they won't extend their paws when placed near a surface. That doesn't mean that the paw extension is learned, only that its development depends on certain environmental factors present in the lives of all healthy kittens in the wild. The fact that it is present in all healthy cats suggests that it is innate. Nature vs. nurture is one of the oldest and least resolvable debates in psychology. Until we can actually decode genomes, which may well be two centuries from now, we won't have any real way to tell whether the average behavior is learned or innate. Mother-bonding is innate, and operant conditioning is innate. That's about all we can say now. -- Tim Maroney, Consultant, Eclectic Software, sun!hoptoad!tim "Those who restrain desire, so so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained; and the restrainer or reason usurps its place & governs the unwilling." - Blake, "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
jbn@glacier.STANFORD.EDU (John B. Nagle) (11/29/88)
The ability to stand, walk, run, avoid obstacles, and run with a
herd without getting trampled appears in horses in the wild within hours
of birth. Even domesticated horses typically stand within an hour of birth.
A particulary nice series of photographs illustrating this appears
in "Horses of the Camargue", by Hans Silvester. See the plates from 12
on, which show the birth of a foal and its first few hours of life.
Because horses are born more fully functional than most mammals,
they are an interesting study for those interested in truly hard-wired
behavior. It is very clear that the visual and coordination systems
of the horse are operational at birth, and seem to be functioning
at a high level of performance from the earliest hours.
I consider this a significant data point when considering how much
of visual processing must be hard-wired. Horses must have good foot placement
and collision avoidance to run with the herd. The necessary level of
performance is present within hours after birth. This level of performance
is far beyond anything yet achieved in robotics or computer vision.
Clearly the vision and motion coordination systems must be mostly hard-wired
for this capability to appear prior to any opportunity for training, learning,
or conditioning.
John Naglegeb@cadre.dsl.PITTSBURGH.EDU (Gordon E. Banks) (11/29/88)
In article <17868@glacier.STANFORD.EDU> jbn@glacier.UUCP (John B. Nagle) writes: > > The ability to stand, walk, run, avoid obstacles, and run with a >herd without getting trampled appears in horses in the wild within hours >of birth. Even domesticated horses typically stand within an hour of birth. > This does not say that gait characteristics of other species, such as man, are not innate. The horse nervous system is just much more developed at birth. Infants do not really "learn" to walk. They start walking (unless prevent) when maturation of the nervous system reaches the proper stage. The programs for walking are largely in the spinal cord anyhow with some contributions from the basal ganglia and cerebellum. A good guide to what is innate in humans is to look for behavior that exists in all cultures, even as remote as that of Australian aborigines. Laughing, smiling, speech, fighting and sexual behaviors, all are found in all genetic stocks. Much more may be innate that is different in different genetic stocks, but that is more difficult to separate from cultural influences.
Makey@LOGICON.ARPA (Jeff Makey) (11/30/88)
In article <1824@cadre.dsl.PITTSBURGH.EDU> geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks) writes: >A good guide to what is innate >in humans is to look for behavior that exists in all cultures, >even as remote as that of Australian aborigines. Laughing, smiling, >speech, fighting and sexual behaviors, all are found in all >genetic stocks. A behavior that I once thought existed in all human cultures was nodding ones head up and down to mean "yes" and shaking from side to side to mean "no." According to my girlfriend, who works for a company that does international trading, there is at least one place where this is not true. I don't remember exactly where it is (Asian continent, I think) but they nod for "no" and shake for "yes." Their word for "yes" even sounds like "nih", which would be taken for a "no" in many languages. :: Jeff Makey Department of Tautological Pleonasms and Superfluous Redundancies Department Disclaimer: Logicon doesn't even know we're running news. Internet: Makey@LOGICON.ARPA UUCP: {nosc,ucsd}!logicon.arpa!Makey
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (11/30/88)
In article <1824@cadre.dsl.PITTSBURGH.EDU> geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks) writes: >A good guide to what is innate >in humans is to look for behavior that exists in all cultures, >even as remote as that of Australian aborigines. Laughing, smiling, >speech, fighting and sexual behaviors, all are found in all >genetic stocks. A good guide, yes; an absolute guide, no. At some point there was only one social grouping of humans, and all others derived from it. Some quite non-innate behaviors from that grouping may well have survived to the present day in all existing social groups. For any particular universal behavior, there's no way to say beyond reasonable doubt that the behavior is innate rather than learned. If one takes a set of such universals, as Gordon has done, the chances are that almost all of them are innate, but it would not be surprising if superior research methods in the future showed one or more to be extremely widespread customs instead. Nature vs. nurture is simply not answerable beyond reasonable doubt with respect to most behaviors of non-infant humans. -- Tim Maroney, Consultant, Eclectic Software, sun!hoptoad!tim "Those who restrain desire, so so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained; and the restrainer or reason usurps its place & governs the unwilling." - Blake, "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
plaice@uvicctr.UUCP (plaice) (12/02/88)
In article <208@logicon.arpa> Makey@LOGICON.ARPA (Jeff Makey) writes: >In article <1824@cadre.dsl.PITTSBURGH.EDU> geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks) writes: >>A good guide to what is innate >>in humans is to look for behavior that exists in all cultures, > >A behavior that I once thought existed in all human cultures was >nodding ones head up and down to mean "yes" and shaking from side to >side to mean "no." According to my girlfriend, who works for a >company that does international trading, there is at least one place >where this is not true. I don't remember exactly where it is (Asian >continent, I think) but they nod for "no" and shake for "yes." Their >word for "yes" even sounds like "nih", which would be taken for a "no" >in many languages. The country in question is Greece, which is hardly in Asia! Travelling through Greece can be quite amusing! -- John PLAICE (+1) 604/721.7299 Dept. of Computer Science plaice@uvunix.uvic.ca University of Victoria ...!ubc-vision!uvicctr!plaice Victoria, B.C. CANADA V8W 2Y2
pepke@loligo.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) (12/03/88)
In article <208@logicon.arpa> Makey@LOGICON.ARPA (Jeff Makey) writes: >A behavior that I once thought existed in all human cultures was >nodding ones head up and down to mean "yes" and shaking from side to >side to mean "no." According to my girlfriend, who works for a >company that does international trading, there is at least one place >where this is not true. Greeks who want to indicate vigorous assent sometimes shake their heads and say "Nehnehnehnehnehnehnehneh..." Here's another one: Nearly all languages in the world have a word for "mother" that sounds like an infant suckling. However, I doubt that this symbol is hardwired. Rather, the fact that this symbol exists is probably due to the universal nature of breast feeding and the influence of the infants on the inventors of language. Eric Pepke pepke%fsu.mfenet@nmfecc.arpa Supercomputer Computations pepke%scri.hepnet@lbl-csa2.arpa Research Institute pepke%fsu.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu Florida State University "It happens sometimes. People just Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 explode. Natural causes." (904) 644-2276 Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions. Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
panoff@hubcap.UUCP (Robert M. Panoff) (12/07/88)
In article <208@logicon.arpa>, Makey@LOGICON.ARPA (Jeff Makey) writes: > A behavior that I once thought existed in all human cultures was > nodding ones head up and down to mean "yes" and shaking from side to > side to mean "no." According to my girlfriend, who works for a > company that does international trading, there is at least one place > where this is not true. I don't remember exactly where it is (Asian > continent, I think) but they nod for "no" and shake for "yes." Their > word for "yes" even sounds like "nih", which would be taken for a "no" > in many languages. Try Finland. "Ei" (which sounded to me very much like "Aye" when I was there) means no, and most of the people seem to nod when saying it, so it sure looks and sounds like yes, but it's no. And the word for yes? "Niin" (pronounced "neen" or just slurred to "nee") which sounds very much like the "obvious" negative. Not a whole lot of cognates in Finnish.... rmp, for the Bob's of the World
ems@Apple.COM (Mike Smith) (12/07/88)
>In article <208@logicon.arpa>, Makey@LOGICON.ARPA (Jeff Makey) writes: >> A behavior that I once thought existed in all human cultures was >> nodding ones head up and down to mean "yes" and shaking from side to >> side to mean "no." According to my girlfriend, who works for a >> company that does international trading, there is at least one place >> where this is not true. I don't remember exactly where it is (Asian >> continent, I think) but they nod for "no" and shake for "yes." Their >> word for "yes" even sounds like "nih", which would be taken for a "no" >> in many languages. The Japanese nod up&down for no... don't know how they pronounce it ...
sw@whuts.ATT.COM (WARMINK) (12/08/88)
Re: Yes/no nodding Bulgarians do it the opposite way too (or so the travel brochure said!). Well there we have it. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are lies, damned lies | Stuart Warmink, Interface Systems and statistics... | <att!>whuts!sw Whippany NJ USA -----------> My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer <-----------
geddis@polya.Stanford.EDU (Donald F. Geddis) (12/09/88)
In article <292@internal.Apple.COM> ems@Apple.COM (Mike Smith) writes: >The Japanese nod up&down for no... don't know how they pronounce it ... I think this is an inaccurate condensation of a cultural difference. To be more specific, in Japan/Japanese, the question is answered literally, whereas in English we state the correct fact. This doesn't matter for positive questions, but it reverses the sense of the first word on negative questions. Thus: "Is it raining today?" English: Yes, it is raining today. No, it isn't raining today. Japanese: Yes, it is raining today. No, it isn't raining today. "Isn't is raining today?" (Literally, "Is not is raining today?") English: Yes, it is raining today. No, it isn't raining today. Japanese: Yes, it is not raining today. (Yes, you are correct...) No, it *is* raining today. (No, your statement was false...) When you give the whole fact/sentence, this confusion usually clears itself up. The problem often comes from the very common shortcut of just saying yes or no. This often causes miscommunication between Japanese learning English and English speakers learning Japanese. (Since it is symmetric, the problem occurs when communicating in either language.) Thus the Japanese nodding up and down for no isn't quite accurate. They nod and shake the same way we do, but it can mean something different. Just for trivial: Yes in Japanese is pronounced "hi" or "ee" (short vowels), whereas No is "e-a" (both long, as though you were just listing the letters of the alphabet). -- Don -- Don Geddis "You lock the door, and throw away the key Geddis@Polya.Stanford.Edu There's someone in my head, but it's not me."
geer-john@CS.YALE.EDU (John Y. Geer) (12/11/88)
In article <208@logicon.arpa> Makey@LOGICON.ARPA (Jeff Makey) writes: > >A behavior that I once thought existed in all human cultures was >nodding ones head up and down to mean "yes" and shaking from side to >side to mean "no." According to my girlfriend, who works for a >company that does international trading, there is at least one place >where this is not true. I don't remember exactly where it is (Asian >continent, I think) but they nod for "no" and shake for "yes." Their >word for "yes" even sounds like "nih", which would be taken for a "no" >in many languages. In Korea, yes sounds like "nay" whereas no is "ahn-nay". This certainly fits the same bill as Greece. Also, Koreans wave "come here" as if they were waving your departure. Kinda strange? Don't make too many assumptions about cultural similarities. My Korean mother insists that her culture _thinks_ about things in a totally different way than any Westerner she has ever met. jyg --- John Y. Geer A screaming comes across the net... at: geer-john@CS.Yale.EDU "Cheese does not preserve well in the or: ..!yale!geer-john archaeological record." - Andrew Moore or: geer@yalecs.bitnet or maybe even: GEEJOHY@YALEVM.BITNET that is, if you're lucky
ying@hubcap.UUCP (Ying Xie) (12/17/88)
From article <561@uvicctr.UUCP>, by plaice@uvicctr.UUCP (plaice): > In article <208@logicon.arpa> Makey@LOGICON.ARPA (Jeff Makey) writes: > >>side to mean "no." According to my girlfriend, who works for a >>company that does international trading, there is at least one place >>where this is not true. I don't remember exactly where it is (Asian >>continent, I think) but they nod for "no" and shake for "yes." Their > > The country in question is Greece, which is hardly in Asia! > Travelling through Greece can be quite amusing! > I don't know whether Greek people do this but there is one asian country where it is true. That is India. I had an indian student in the class I was assisting. He constantly shaking his head while I explained something to him, which I thought was something wrong with him. I later found out this by asking one of my friends who is also Indian. Ying Xie Department of Computer Science Clemson University Clemson, SC 29631 ying@hubcap.clemson.edu