grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (07/20/89)
Well, as a capacity planning excercise, I'm looking at either a 6X00
or one of these newfangled 58XX systems and trying to come up with
a realistic configuration.
A few questions:
1) Are there any real problems with the BI serial controllers, either
the DMB32 or DHB32? For example two of the current unibus controllers
are seriously compromised: the DMF32 has hard-wired modem control that
makes it all but useless with smart modems, and the DHU11 output speed
is really limited to 9600 baud, with obvious consequences.
2) Are there thruput/performance limitations that would favor multiple
DMB32's vs a DHB32 or the opposite? How large are the input fifos
and are they shared between all lines?
3) Is anybody out there using CI attached disks on an Ultrix system?
How does performance compare to Massbuss or BI attached drives?
Does Ultrix really get any benefit from the rather expensive CI
hardware?
4) How about CI attached tape drives? The lack of direct attachment
for TU78 class drives is a real bummer. I don't particularly want
to downgrade to a TU81+. Does anyone actually use TK70's for
backup on mid-range systems?
--
George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net
Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)alan@shodha.dec.com ( Alan's Home for Wayward Notes File.) (07/20/89)
In article <7373@cbmvax.UUCP>, grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > Well, as a capacity planning excercise, I'm looking at either a 6X00 > or one of these newfangled 58XX systems and trying to come up with > a realistic configuration. > > A few questions: > > 1) Are there any real problems with the BI serial controllers, either > the DMB32 or DHB32? For example two of the current unibus controllers > are seriously compromised: the DMF32 has hard-wired modem control that > makes it all but useless with smart modems, and the DHU11 output speed > is really limited to 9600 baud, with obvious consequences. Even though I have a DMB32, I've never had the oppurtunity to make much use of it. I've heard (but never verified) that it will run at 19.2 Kb. > > 2) Are there thruput/performance limitations that would favor multiple > DMB32's vs a DHB32 or the opposite? How large are the input fifos > and are they shared between all lines? See above. > > 3) Is anybody out there using CI attached disks on an Ultrix system? > How does performance compare to Massbuss or BI attached drives? I have 20 disks on the 8800 that I'm the system manager of. 12 are on an HSC70 and others spread across two KDB50's, mostly because I didn't have enough requestors in the HSC. For typical I/O usage, I'd say the performance is about same. If you start doing lots of sequential I/O at the same time, multiple KDB50's have an advantage because you can easily saturate the CI adapter. > Does Ultrix really get any benefit from the rather expensive CI > hardware? I believe it does. If you have multiple systems you can use the CI as a network interface and share disks more easily. As for cost, I calculated the cost per port once and did find the HSC/CI more expensive (for 32 ports) than the KDB50's. I'm not sure if took into account the extra expansion cabinets needed for the additional KDB50's. > > 4) How about CI attached tape drives? The lack of direct attachment > for TU78 class drives is a real bummer. I don't particularly want > to downgrade to a TU81+. Does anyone actually use TK70's for > backup on mid-range systems? Being able to share our TA78's with the VMS cluster was my biggest reason for getting an HSC and CI adapters. I've only played with a TK70 on a VS3500, so I can't comment much about it. I don't see any reason that a VAX 6000-xxx or DECsystem 5800 shouldn't be able to keep it streaming, so it will be close the same speed as a TA78/9. I won't know what the affective capacity is, but I'd guess it to be between 250 MB and 295 MB. The cartridges are more expensive then a 9-track tape, so the cost per MB is probably higher. They do have advantage of being smaller if MB per square foot is a concern. > -- > George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr > but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net > Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) Alan Rollow, Digital Equipment Corp. Database Systems, Colorado Springs CO.
heins@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu (Leeland Heins) (07/21/89)
In article <7373@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >Well, as a capacity planning excercise, I'm looking at either a 6X00 >or one of these newfangled 58XX systems and trying to come up with >a realistic configuration. > >A few questions: > >1) Are there any real problems with the BI serial controllers, either > the DMB32 or DHB32? We were running Ultrix for a short time on our VAX 8250 which has a BI bus. The DMB32 looks pretty much like a BI version of the DMF32. Since there is as yet no driver for the DMB32 for 4.3BSD-Tahoe (which we upgraded to) we are no longer using the DMB32, its just sitting around gathering dust. > For example two of the current unibus controllers > are seriously compromised: the DMF32 has hard-wired modem control that > makes it all but useless with smart modems, Only the first two ports on a DMF-32 have modem control. We are using DMF32's with Hayes-clone modems on the first two ports, and they work fine. We are also using Emulex CS21/F, which is a DMF32 look alike (two DMF32's on one hex Unibus card). The Emulex card has modem control on all 16 lines. Of course, you have to set the flags in your config file when you build your UNIX kernel to turn on modem control. > and the DHU11 output speed > is really limited to 9600 baud, with obvious consequences. Hmmm... is the DHU11 really limited to only 9600bps? TMF says it will do 19,200, but not 38,400. I haven't used one so I can't say if that is really right or not. >4) How about CI attached tape drives? The lack of direct attachment > for TU78 class drives is a real bummer. I don't particularly want > to downgrade to a TU81+. Does anyone actually use TK70's for > backup on mid-range systems? I don't know about CI tapes. If you can hang a Unibus on the machine your cheapest route to tape drives may be 3rd party. We have a TU81+ that we aren't using because DEC won't give us enough technical info to write a device driver for the BI bus KLESI-B card. It works fine under Ultrix, but the TU81+ as you implied, is no speed-demon. We probably could have gotten the Unibus KLESI-U controller, but we couldn't find anyone who is actually using one with a TU81+, and althought most of the people I talked to "assumed it should work", that wasn't good enough for me. We are replacing the TU81+ & KLESI-B with a Ciper M990 and an Emulex TC13 (TS11 emulating) Unibus controller. Its a combination we know works, and the M990 seems to be about 3x faster than the TU81+, not to mention less expensive. We've had some old 1600bpi Cipher drives with Emulex controllers and they've been trouble free for years. >George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr >but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net >Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) //|||\\ "Attack of the killer Lee Heins, EXNET Programmer //-O-O-\\ mutant techno-hippies Iowa State U. Extension || v || from Hell" heins@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu || === || ...!hplabs!hp-lsd!atanasoff!heins || --- || /// `|' \\\ Disclaimer: I am not an official spokesman of ISU.
davew@gvgpsa.GVG.TEK.COM (David C. White) (07/21/89)
In article <1232@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu> heins@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu.UUCP (Leeland Heins) writes: >In article <7373@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >> and the DHU11 output speed >> is really limited to 9600 baud, with obvious consequences. > > Hmmm... is the DHU11 really limited to only 9600bps? TMF says it will >do 19,200, but not 38,400. I haven't used one so I can't say if that is >really right or not. I can't speak about the DHU11 specifically, but I am running some DHV11s and according to the manual and the config file file entry entry, the DHV11 uses the DHU driver. I run our Trailblazers as well as a laser printer and a couple of in-circuit emulators at 19200 with no problems. NAME dhv - DHV11 communications interface SYNTAX device dhu0 at uba0 csr 0160440 flags 0x?? vector dhurint dhuxint -- David White Grass Valley Group, Inc. VOICE: +1 916.478.3052 P.O. Box 1114 Grass Valley, CA 95945 FAX: +1 916.478.3778 Internet: davew@gvgpsa.gvg.tek.com UUCP: ...!tektronix!gvgpsa!davew
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (07/21/89)
In article <1232@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu> heins@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu.UUCP (Leeland Heins) writes: > In article <7373@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > >Well, as a capacity planning excercise, I'm looking at either a 6X00 > >or one of these newfangled 58XX systems and trying to come up with > >a realistic configuration. > > > >A few questions: > > > Only the first two ports on a DMF-32 have modem control. We are using > DMF32's with Hayes-clone modems on the first two ports, and they work fine. > We are also using Emulex CS21/F, which is a DMF32 look alike (two DMF32's > on one hex Unibus card). The Emulex card has modem control on all 16 lines. > Of course, you have to set the flags in your config file when you build your > UNIX kernel to turn on modem control. Yes, but trying to do the Ultrix flavor of dynamic dial-in/dial-out with the hardwired carrier detect and talk to a smart modem with get you into the painful catch-22 situations. > > and the DHU11 output speed > > is really limited to 9600 baud, with obvious consequences. > > Hmmm... is the DHU11 really limited to only 9600bps? TMF says it will > do 19,200, but not 38,400. I haven't used one so I can't say if that is > really right or not. The systems and options guide talks about what baud rates you can set it to vs. the users manual: "the transmit firmware can supply a maximum of 1,000 characters/sec to any channel". High-dollar electronic scrap in my book. The one I bought is still in the box, a used Able DH11 emulator that cost me $500 is doing the job. > I don't know about CI tapes. If you can hang a Unibus on the machine your > cheapest route to tape drives may be 3rd party. The problem here is the DEC as declared all the unibus peripherals to be "unsupported" under Ultrix on the 6000 (and presumably 5800) series machines. This doesn't really panic me, but I have real qualms about depending from day one on something that DEC isn't going to support. I'm currently running odd disk drives on an object patched version of the hp driver and while I've saved lots of money, I've pulled out some hair from time to time and if turn over the system to somebody new, he'll be SOL when he goes to install the Ultrix X.Y release. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)