brodie@fps.mcw.edu (12/12/89)
In article <3434@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>, steved@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Steve Dempsey) writes: [electronic SPR stuff deleted] > > And there are some other interesting things on DSIN, including lots of > descriptions and solutions for various sofware and hardware problems > encountered by other customers. For the experienced sysadmin, there > is little of interest. For the newcomer, it's chock full of little > bits of information that can make one's job easier. I disagree! Although DSIN has a lot of introductory "how to" articles, it is also "chock full" of problem notices, product release notes, and many, many programming examples of stuff that is very handy. A common example is a "how to" do certain references to vms system services from many languages. Even the "experienced" sysadmin-type needs a good example here and there. On a side note, at DECUS I was introduced to "INCA". It's a layered product that will provide you with the ability to log any vax SOFTWARE call via local vms mail! (works as a detached process that then dials TSC, and downloads your message directly into the call queue!) one NEAT side effect is that with this product, you also gain FULL access to the DSIN database, using a MUCH better search mechanism, and it's all done locally on YOUR system. DEC is also planning on expanding their DSIN database FOUR-fold. This isn't simply a "rumor", I actually saw the product being demonstrated at DECUS. A fellow from colorado TSC showed it to about a dozen of us as sort of a hi-tech "preview" of things to come...... > > > Steve Dempsey, Center for Computer Assisted Engineering > Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523 +1 303 491 0630 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kent C. Brodie - Systems Manager brodie@mcw.edu Medical College of Wisconsin +1 414 778 4500 "Gee, I hope these are the right coordinates..." -Chief O'Brian; STTNG
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (12/13/89)
In article <3275.2584b4f3@fps.mcw.edu> brodie@fps.mcw.edu writes: > In article <3434@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>, steved@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Steve Dempsey) writes: > > > And there are some other interesting things on DSIN, including lots of > > descriptions and solutions for various sofware and hardware problems > > encountered by other customers. For the experienced sysadmin, there > > is little of interest. For the newcomer, it's chock full of little > > bits of information that can make one's job easier. > > I disagree! Although DSIN has a lot of introductory "how to" articles, > it is also "chock full" of problem notices, product release notes, and > many, many programming examples of stuff that is very handy. A common > example is a "how to" do certain references to vms system services from > many languages. Even the "experienced" sysadmin-type needs a good > example here and there. I disagree!!! As far as Ultrix is concerned, DSIN is almost as useless as the "Ultrix System Dispatch", which as we all know is slightly less than zero. The Ultrix group(s) simply do not seem putting any effort into maintain in the Ultrix area of the DSIN data base. Yes, occasional useful articles show up and even tutorials, but that's about it. None of the problems that I've submitted to the Support center have ever shown up as known problems and they don't even bother to post notices of available patches or release announcements. In addition, since retrieval is limited to keyword oriented searches, it is almost immpossible to find either problem descriptions or tutorials unless you happen to log in periodically and try your 10 best keywords. Now perhaps the VMS section is better organized, but in my experience the only thing the Ultrix section is good for is electronic problem/SPR submission. Maybe things will improved, but at present the whole thing could be replaced by a user friendly BBS (or usenet) and the world would be a much better place. ** end of ranting and raving ** -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
hoyt@decatl.dec.com (Kurt Hoyt) (12/14/89)
In article <8967@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > >I disagree!!! As far as Ultrix is concerned, DSIN is almost as useless >as the "Ultrix System Dispatch", which as we all know is slightly less >than zero. > >Now perhaps the VMS section is better organized, but in my experience >the only thing the Ultrix section is good for is electronic problem/SPR >submission. Maybe things will improved, but at present the whole thing >could be replaced by a user friendly BBS (or usenet) and the world would >be a much better place. OK, dream a little. What would the ideal support center for Ultrix (as an example)? Remember that somebody has to pay for this center (mainly you, the customer). Criticize, fantasize, but be realistic (kinda contradicts the notion of 'ideal', don't it?). Let your imagination run wild. But don't just do it here. Send mail to me. I might be able to do something about it. No promises, no commitments, just someone near the problem who could make a difference. I saw parts of the discussion from last April. Also, be sure to note whether or not you current have a software support contract (and who it is with...). I hope to hear from you (I've cleared out some disk space and fire-proofed my workstation...). -- Kurt Hoyt Digital Equipment Corporation hoyt@decatl.alf.dec.com or hoyt@decatl.dec.com or hoyt%decatl@decwrl.dec.com "Daddy, you not people, you a GUY! Mommy a girl." -- Faith Hoyt
hughes@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (larry hughes) (12/14/89)
In article <3275.2584b4f3@fps.mcw.edu> brodie@fps.mcw.edu writes: >On a side note, at DECUS I was introduced to "INCA". It's a layered product >that will provide you with the ability to log any vax SOFTWARE call via >local vms mail! (works as a detached process that then dials TSC, and >downloads your message directly into the call queue!) > >one NEAT side effect is that with this product, you also gain FULL access >to the DSIN database, using a MUCH better search mechanism, and it's all done >locally on YOUR system. DEC is also planning on expanding their DSIN >database FOUR-fold. > >This isn't simply a "rumor", I actually saw the product being demonstrated >at DECUS. A fellow from colorado TSC showed it to about a dozen of us as >sort of a hi-tech "preview" of things to come...... > Indeed, not a rumour. You can also use INCA interactively, and it multithreads the interactive sessions on one dialout line! //=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\\ || Larry J. Hughes, Senior Programmer || hughes@silver.bacs.indiana.edu || || Indiana University || || || University Computing Services || "The person who knows everything || || 750 N. State Road 46 Bypass || has a lot to learn." || || Bloomington, IN 47405 || || || (812) 855-9255 || Disclaimer: See quote above. || \\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=//
brodie@fps.mcw.edu (12/15/89)
in previous article(s), I wrote.... >> I disagree! Although DSIN has a lot of introductory "how to" articles, >> it is also "chock full" of problem notices, product release notes, and >> many, many programming examples of stuff that is very handy. A common >> example is a "how to" do certain references to vms system services from >> many languages. Even the "experienced" sysadmin-type needs a good >> example here and there. In article <8967@cbmvax.UUCP>, grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > I disagree!!! As far as Ultrix is concerned, DSIN is almost as useless > as the "Ultrix System Dispatch", which as we all know is slightly less > than zero. > > The Ultrix group(s) simply do not seem putting any effort into maintain > in the Ultrix area of the DSIN data base. Yes, occasional useful articles > show up and even tutorials, but that's about it. None of the problems > that I've submitted to the Support center have ever shown up as known > problems and they don't even bother to post notices of available patches > or release announcements. ok, there, you definately have a point. I forgot the article was originally cross-posted to comp.unix.ultrix. Yes, it does seem that stuff is mostly geared to the vms-side of things. But, I'm a vms site. :-) > In addition, since retrieval is limited to keyword oriented searches, > it is almost immpossible to find either problem descriptions or tutorials > unless you happen to log in periodically and try your 10 best keywords. well, that all changes in the future. INCA's search mechanism uses ALL searching. i.e., not limited to keywords anymore. You search the ENTIRE context of the article(s), and you can use simple boolean logic to narrow down to what you really want. In addition, I also stated that the DSIN database is gonna expand a LOT. Does this mean they're gonna expand the ULTRIX stuff too? I dunno.... > -- > George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr > but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net > Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kent C. Brodie - Systems Manager brodie@mcw.edu Medical College of Wisconsin +1 414 778 4500 "Gee, I hope these are the right coordinates..." -Chief O'Brian; STTNG
seb022@tijc02.UUCP (Scott Bemis ) (12/21/89)
> I disagree!!! As far as Ultrix is concerned, DSIN is almost as useless > as the "Ultrix System Dispatch", which as we all know is slightly less > than zero. DSIN for the VMS operating system is an essential part of my tricks to fix the numerous problems I face (as a side note, my current employer, Texas Instruments Information Technology Group division, does not believe in training). Therefore, I want to receive my paycheck, I had better figure out a way to fix problems with very little background on how to fix them). DSIN basically has helped keep me employed and keep the paycheck coming in. For example, I had just used DSIN to determine what the SYSGEN parameter TTY_DEFPORT meant (it was not listed in the documentation). And unlike a bulletin board, I could search for past problem reports (just like on the CD-ROM systems I have at work). Scott Bemis Texas Instruments (and wanting to change employers) P. O. Drawer 1255, M/S 3517 Johnson City, Tennessee, U.S.A. 37601 Phone: (615) 461-2959 e-mail: mcnc!rti!tijc02!seb022
saus@media-lab.media.mit.edu (Mark Sausville) (12/21/89)
In article <1989Dec13.201513.10674@decatl.dec.com> hoyt@decatl.dec.com (Kurt Hoyt) writes:
OK, dream a little. What would the ideal support center for Ultrix (as an
example)? Remember that somebody has to pay for this center (mainly you,
the customer). Criticize, fantasize, but be realistic (kinda contradicts the
notion of 'ideal', don't it?). Let your imagination run wild.
But don't just do it here. Send mail to me. I might be able to do something
about it. No promises, no commitments, just someone near the problem who could
make a difference. I saw parts of the discussion from last April. Also, be
sure to note whether or not you current have a software support contract
(and who it is with...).
I hope to hear from you (I've cleared out some disk space and fire-proofed
my workstation...).
--
Kurt Hoyt
Digital Equipment Corporation
hoyt@decatl.alf.dec.com or hoyt@decatl.dec.com or hoyt%decatl@decwrl.dec.com
"Daddy, you not people, you a GUY! Mommy a girl." -- Faith Hoyt
Well Kurt, here goes:
1. A complete revamping of the logging process. You need triage and
dispatch to appropriate people. Lots of calls can be handled by
relatively unwizardly people. Other calls are urgent and may only
be soluble by people who have and can UNDERSTAND the sources (by the way,
I had 3.1 sources before Atlanta and it took me a REALLY long time to get
them; that's totally insane.).
One of the most frustrating things about the current setup is that
the customer has to know when to put on pressure to elevate calls.
If you have experience, you understand that if something is just
sitting, you have to make enough noise to get it bumped up to the
next level. Then you have to do it again ... and again ....
The bottom line is that right now, to get what you pay for, you have
to be a professional squeaky wheel. I have neither the time or
inclination to do this.
2. Email submissions of problem reports should
play a major role in any reconstitution of Support. Many things are
best handled off line. I am a support person, so I know whereof I speak.
In fact, as part of your triage, people who don't or won't submit email
reports could have it done for them by clerical personnel. If people
don't have connectivity, fax is another way to keep it electronic
(i.e. out of the mail). I've heard vague reports recently about
products for Ultrix which go from ascii text straight to FAX (if anyone
knows details about this, let me know). My advice is go out and
buy it now.
3. Ultrix support needs its own "Colorado", you know, hardware experts
who can dialin to a remote console on the customer's machine. Right
now, Colorado is too VMS oriented to be of use to Ultrix users and
communication between Colorado and Atlanta is slow and buggy. Indeed
it is very difficult to find people within Digital who understand
the the interaction of the hardware and the software (at least Ultrix).
4. Perhaps Digital could once again encourage third parties to develop
value added environments on Ultrix platforms. It's probably a mistake
for Digital to try to be the be-all and end-all software source for
Ultrix machines. DEC has never been sucessful at this before and
I see no reason to expect that you will be now. These third party
developers should see a special interface to Support in recognition
of the fact that they probably would lighten the Ultrix support load.
5. You NEED some way to indentify POSITIVELY whether or not a program
or module is yours and if so what version it is. I don't have time
to reload the system for the convenience of Support.
In addition, you need a rational cataloging and distribution
scheme for bug fixes.
The amount of wheel spinning that goes on in the DEC support
organization (hardware and software) to fix bugs that have already
been dealt with internally is truly bizarre.
Addressing this points alone would probably enhance productivity
by 50%.
6. You may find that a national support center may not be the way
to do things. It may be that several regional centers might
be better able to support the customers. What I'm really getting
at here is that as a place grows, it's abilty to respond quickly
diminishes. You need to find an organization whose response
time is never seriously compromised. You'd also be able to
retain good people if they are able to move around the country.
The software support I'm getting now (I don't bother mostly) is not
worth what I'm paying. I came into this organization with the system
I'm maintaining already bought. I wouldn't buy the support now.
Source (for us) is a better deal.
That's it for now. I could probably say more but I'm blathered out
for the moment.
Mark Sausville MIT Media Laboratory
Computer Systems Administrator Room E15-354
617-253-0325 20 Ames Street
saus@media-lab.media.mit.edu Cambridge, MA 02139elsen@esat.kuleuven.ac.be (12/21/89)
In article <1989Dec13.201513.10674@decatl.dec.com>, hoyt@decatl.dec.com (Kurt Hoyt) writes: > In article <8967@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >> >>I disagree!!! As far as Ultrix is concerned, DSIN is almost as useless >>as the "Ultrix System Dispatch", which as we all know is slightly less >>than zero. >> >>Now perhaps the VMS section is better organized, but in my experience >>the only thing the Ultrix section is good for is electronic problem/SPR >>submission. Maybe things will improved, but at present the whole thing >>could be replaced by a user friendly BBS (or usenet) and the world would >>be a much better place. > > OK, dream a little. What would the ideal support center for Ultrix (as an ^^^^^ > example)? Remember that somebody has to pay for this center (mainly you, > the customer). Criticize, fantasize, but be realistic (kinda contradicts the > notion of 'ideal', don't it?). Let your imagination run wild. > >... Well I couldn't let this one go.With respecto to DEC Support all over the world you simply can't go around the fact that the Usenet forum represents a world wide database of information. With that in mind I must say that over the last 2 years 'comp.sys.dec' , 'comp.unix.ultrix' and 'comp.os.vms' represent the best 'Support Center' for me, and they don't cost me anything. Except for our connection to Usenet , but this isn't payed by our Department ,at least not at the moment... Marc Elsen (System Manager/Software Engineer) Katholieke Universiteit Leuven Dep. E.S.A.T. Kard. Mercierlaan 94 3030 HEVERLEE Belgium tel. 32(0)16220931(ext. 1080) EMAIL : elsen@esat.kuleuven.ac.be ...!kulcs!kulesat!elsen (UUCP) elsen%kulesat.uucp@blekul60 (BITNET) psi%02062166012::elsen (PSI MAIL)