[comp.unix.ultrix] DSIN access

brodie@fps.mcw.edu (12/12/89)

In article <3434@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>, steved@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Steve Dempsey) writes:

[electronic SPR stuff deleted]


> 
> And there are some other interesting things on DSIN, including lots of
> descriptions and solutions for various sofware and hardware problems
> encountered by other customers.  For the experienced sysadmin, there
> is little of interest.  For the newcomer, it's chock full of little
> bits of information that can make one's job easier.

I disagree!   Although DSIN has a lot of introductory "how to" articles,
it is also "chock full" of problem notices, product release notes, and
many, many programming examples of stuff that is very handy.  A common
example is a "how to" do certain references to vms system services from
many languages.  Even the "experienced" sysadmin-type needs a good 
example here and there.



On a side note, at DECUS I was introduced to "INCA".  It's a layered product
that will provide you with the ability to log any vax SOFTWARE call via
local vms mail!   (works as a detached process that then dials TSC, and
downloads your message directly into the call queue!)

one NEAT side effect is that with this product, you also gain FULL access
to the DSIN database, using a MUCH better search mechanism, and it's all done
locally on YOUR system.    DEC is also planning on expanding their DSIN
database FOUR-fold.

This isn't simply a "rumor", I actually saw the product being demonstrated
at DECUS.  A fellow from colorado TSC showed it to about a dozen of us as
sort of a hi-tech "preview" of things to come......

> 
> 
>         Steve Dempsey,  Center for Computer Assisted Engineering
>   Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523    +1 303 491 0630

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kent C. Brodie - Systems Manager		brodie@mcw.edu
Medical College of Wisconsin			+1 414 778 4500

"Gee, I hope these are the right coordinates..."  -Chief O'Brian; STTNG

grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) (12/13/89)

In article <3275.2584b4f3@fps.mcw.edu> brodie@fps.mcw.edu writes:
> In article <3434@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>, steved@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Steve Dempsey) writes:
> 
> > And there are some other interesting things on DSIN, including lots of
> > descriptions and solutions for various sofware and hardware problems
> > encountered by other customers.  For the experienced sysadmin, there
> > is little of interest.  For the newcomer, it's chock full of little
> > bits of information that can make one's job easier.
> 
> I disagree!   Although DSIN has a lot of introductory "how to" articles,
> it is also "chock full" of problem notices, product release notes, and
> many, many programming examples of stuff that is very handy.  A common
> example is a "how to" do certain references to vms system services from
> many languages.  Even the "experienced" sysadmin-type needs a good 
> example here and there.

I disagree!!!  As far as Ultrix is concerned, DSIN is almost as useless
as the "Ultrix System Dispatch", which as we all know is slightly less
than zero.

The Ultrix group(s) simply do not seem putting any effort into maintain
in the Ultrix area of the DSIN data base.  Yes, occasional useful articles
show up and even tutorials, but that's about it.  None of the problems
that I've submitted to the Support center have ever shown up as known
problems and they don't even bother to post notices of available patches
or release announcements.

In addition, since retrieval is limited to keyword oriented searches,
it is almost immpossible to find either problem descriptions or tutorials
unless you happen to log in periodically and try your 10 best keywords.

Now perhaps the VMS section is better organized, but in my experience
the only thing the Ultrix section is good for is electronic problem/SPR
submission.  Maybe things will improved, but at present the whole thing
could be replaced by a user friendly BBS (or usenet) and the world would
be a much better place.

** end of ranting and raving **

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,	uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
but no way officially representing	arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net
Commodore, Engineering Department	fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

hoyt@decatl.dec.com (Kurt Hoyt) (12/14/89)

In article <8967@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>
>I disagree!!!  As far as Ultrix is concerned, DSIN is almost as useless
>as the "Ultrix System Dispatch", which as we all know is slightly less
>than zero.
>
>Now perhaps the VMS section is better organized, but in my experience
>the only thing the Ultrix section is good for is electronic problem/SPR
>submission.  Maybe things will improved, but at present the whole thing
>could be replaced by a user friendly BBS (or usenet) and the world would
>be a much better place.

OK, dream a little. What would the ideal support center for Ultrix (as an
example)? Remember that somebody has to pay for this center (mainly you,
the customer). Criticize, fantasize, but be realistic (kinda contradicts the
notion of 'ideal', don't it?). Let your imagination run wild.

But don't just do it here. Send mail to me. I might be able to do something
about it. No promises, no commitments, just someone near the problem who could
make a difference. I saw parts of the discussion from last April. Also, be
sure to note whether or not you current have a software support contract
(and who it is with...).

I hope to hear from you (I've cleared out some disk space and fire-proofed
my workstation...).

-- 
Kurt Hoyt
Digital Equipment Corporation
hoyt@decatl.alf.dec.com or hoyt@decatl.dec.com or hoyt%decatl@decwrl.dec.com
"Daddy, you not people, you a GUY! Mommy a girl." -- Faith Hoyt

hughes@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (larry hughes) (12/14/89)

In article <3275.2584b4f3@fps.mcw.edu> brodie@fps.mcw.edu writes:
>On a side note, at DECUS I was introduced to "INCA".  It's a layered product
>that will provide you with the ability to log any vax SOFTWARE call via
>local vms mail!   (works as a detached process that then dials TSC, and
>downloads your message directly into the call queue!)
>
>one NEAT side effect is that with this product, you also gain FULL access
>to the DSIN database, using a MUCH better search mechanism, and it's all done
>locally on YOUR system.    DEC is also planning on expanding their DSIN
>database FOUR-fold.
>
>This isn't simply a "rumor", I actually saw the product being demonstrated
>at DECUS.  A fellow from colorado TSC showed it to about a dozen of us as
>sort of a hi-tech "preview" of things to come......
>

Indeed, not a rumour.  You can also use INCA interactively, and it
multithreads the interactive sessions on one dialout line!

 //=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\\
|| Larry J. Hughes, Senior Programmer ||  hughes@silver.bacs.indiana.edu   ||
||        Indiana University          ||                                   ||
||   University Computing Services    ||  "The person who knows everything ||
||    750 N. State Road 46 Bypass     ||     has a lot to learn."          ||
||      Bloomington, IN  47405        ||                                   ||
||         (812) 855-9255             ||  Disclaimer: See quote above.     ||
 \\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=//

brodie@fps.mcw.edu (12/15/89)

in previous article(s), I wrote....

>> I disagree!   Although DSIN has a lot of introductory "how to" articles,
>> it is also "chock full" of problem notices, product release notes, and
>> many, many programming examples of stuff that is very handy.  A common
>> example is a "how to" do certain references to vms system services from
>> many languages.  Even the "experienced" sysadmin-type needs a good 
>> example here and there.

In article <8967@cbmvax.UUCP>, grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:

> I disagree!!!  As far as Ultrix is concerned, DSIN is almost as useless
> as the "Ultrix System Dispatch", which as we all know is slightly less
> than zero.
> 
> The Ultrix group(s) simply do not seem putting any effort into maintain
> in the Ultrix area of the DSIN data base.  Yes, occasional useful articles
> show up and even tutorials, but that's about it.  None of the problems
> that I've submitted to the Support center have ever shown up as known
> problems and they don't even bother to post notices of available patches
> or release announcements.

ok, there, you definately have a point.  I forgot the article was originally
cross-posted to comp.unix.ultrix.   Yes, it does seem that stuff is mostly
geared to the vms-side of things.   But, I'm a vms site.  :-)

> In addition, since retrieval is limited to keyword oriented searches,
> it is almost immpossible to find either problem descriptions or tutorials
> unless you happen to log in periodically and try your 10 best keywords.

well, that all changes in the future.  INCA's search mechanism uses
ALL searching.  i.e., not limited to keywords anymore.  You search the
ENTIRE context of the article(s), and you can use simple boolean logic
to narrow down to what you really want.

In addition, I also stated that the DSIN database is gonna expand a LOT.
Does this mean they're gonna expand the ULTRIX stuff too?  I dunno....


> -- 
> George Robbins - now working for,	uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
> but no way officially representing	arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net
> Commodore, Engineering Department	fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kent C. Brodie - Systems Manager		brodie@mcw.edu
Medical College of Wisconsin			+1 414 778 4500

"Gee, I hope these are the right coordinates..."  -Chief O'Brian; STTNG

seb022@tijc02.UUCP (Scott Bemis ) (12/21/89)

> I disagree!!!  As far as Ultrix is concerned, DSIN is almost as useless
> as the "Ultrix System Dispatch", which as we all know is slightly less
> than zero.

DSIN for the VMS operating system is an essential part of my tricks to fix the
numerous problems I face (as a side note, my current employer, Texas
Instruments Information Technology Group division, does not believe in
training).  Therefore, I want to receive my paycheck, I had better figure
out a way to fix problems with very little background on how to fix them). 
DSIN basically has helped keep me employed and keep the paycheck coming
in.  For example, I had just used DSIN to determine what the SYSGEN
parameter TTY_DEFPORT meant (it was not listed in the documentation). 
And unlike a bulletin board, I could search for past problem reports (just
like on the CD-ROM systems I have at work). 


Scott Bemis
Texas Instruments (and wanting to change employers)
P. O. Drawer 1255, M/S 3517
Johnson City, Tennessee, U.S.A.  37601
Phone: (615) 461-2959
e-mail:  mcnc!rti!tijc02!seb022

saus@media-lab.media.mit.edu (Mark Sausville) (12/21/89)

In article <1989Dec13.201513.10674@decatl.dec.com> hoyt@decatl.dec.com (Kurt Hoyt) writes:

   OK, dream a little. What would the ideal support center for Ultrix (as an
   example)? Remember that somebody has to pay for this center (mainly you,
   the customer). Criticize, fantasize, but be realistic (kinda contradicts the
   notion of 'ideal', don't it?). Let your imagination run wild.

   But don't just do it here. Send mail to me. I might be able to do something
   about it. No promises, no commitments, just someone near the problem who could
   make a difference. I saw parts of the discussion from last April. Also, be
   sure to note whether or not you current have a software support contract
   (and who it is with...).

   I hope to hear from you (I've cleared out some disk space and fire-proofed
   my workstation...).

   -- 
   Kurt Hoyt
   Digital Equipment Corporation
   hoyt@decatl.alf.dec.com or hoyt@decatl.dec.com or hoyt%decatl@decwrl.dec.com
   "Daddy, you not people, you a GUY! Mommy a girl." -- Faith Hoyt

Well Kurt, here goes:

1.  A complete revamping of the logging process.  You need triage and
    dispatch to appropriate people.  Lots of calls can be handled by
    relatively unwizardly people.  Other calls are urgent and may only
    be soluble by people who have and can UNDERSTAND the sources (by the way,
    I had 3.1 sources before Atlanta and it took me a REALLY long time to get
    them; that's totally insane.).      

    One of the most frustrating things about the current setup is that
    the customer has to know when to put on pressure to elevate calls.
    If you have experience, you understand that if something is just 
    sitting, you have to make enough noise to get it bumped up to the
    next level.  Then you have to do it again ... and again ....
    The bottom line is that right now, to get what you pay for, you have
    to be a professional squeaky wheel.  I have neither the time or 
    inclination to do this.

2.  Email submissions of problem reports should
    play a major role in any reconstitution of Support.  Many things are
    best handled off line.  I am a support person, so I know whereof I speak.
    In fact, as part of your triage, people who don't or won't submit email
    reports could have it done for them by clerical personnel.  If people
    don't have connectivity, fax is another way to keep it electronic
    (i.e. out of the mail).  I've heard vague reports recently about
    products for Ultrix which go from ascii text straight to FAX (if anyone
    knows details about this, let me know).  My advice is go out and 
    buy it now.

3.  Ultrix support needs its own "Colorado", you know, hardware experts
    who can dialin to a remote console on the customer's machine.  Right
    now, Colorado is too VMS oriented to be of use to Ultrix users and
    communication between Colorado and Atlanta is slow and buggy.  Indeed
    it is very difficult to find people within Digital who understand
    the the interaction of the hardware and the software (at least Ultrix).

4.  Perhaps Digital could once again encourage third parties to develop
    value added environments on Ultrix platforms.  It's probably a mistake
    for Digital to try to be the be-all and end-all software source for
    Ultrix machines.   DEC has never been sucessful at this before and
    I see no reason to expect that you will be now.  These third party
    developers should see a special interface to Support in recognition
    of the fact that they probably would lighten the Ultrix support load.

5.  You NEED some way to indentify POSITIVELY whether or not a program
    or module is yours and if so what version it is.  I don't have time
    to reload the system for the convenience of Support.

    In addition, you need a rational cataloging and distribution
    scheme for bug fixes.

    The amount of wheel spinning that goes on in the DEC support
    organization (hardware and software) to fix bugs that have already
    been dealt with internally is truly bizarre.

    Addressing this points alone would probably enhance productivity
    by 50%.

6.  You may find that a national support center may not be the way
    to do things.  It may be that several regional centers might
    be better able to support the customers.  What I'm really getting
    at here is that as a place grows, it's abilty to respond quickly
    diminishes.  You need to find an organization whose response
    time is never seriously compromised.  You'd also be able to 
    retain good people if they are able to move around the country.

The software support I'm getting now (I don't bother mostly) is not
worth what I'm paying.  I came into this organization with the system
I'm maintaining already bought.   I wouldn't buy the support now.
Source (for us) is a better deal.

That's it for now.  I could probably say more but I'm blathered out
for the moment.

Mark Sausville                           MIT Media Laboratory
Computer Systems Administrator           Room E15-354
617-253-0325                             20 Ames Street
saus@media-lab.media.mit.edu             Cambridge, MA 02139

elsen@esat.kuleuven.ac.be (12/21/89)

In article <1989Dec13.201513.10674@decatl.dec.com>, hoyt@decatl.dec.com (Kurt Hoyt) writes:
> In article <8967@cbmvax.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>>
>>I disagree!!!  As far as Ultrix is concerned, DSIN is almost as useless
>>as the "Ultrix System Dispatch", which as we all know is slightly less
>>than zero.
>>
>>Now perhaps the VMS section is better organized, but in my experience
>>the only thing the Ultrix section is good for is electronic problem/SPR
>>submission.  Maybe things will improved, but at present the whole thing
>>could be replaced by a user friendly BBS (or usenet) and the world would
>>be a much better place.
> 
> OK, dream a little. What would the ideal support center for Ultrix (as an
      ^^^^^
> example)? Remember that somebody has to pay for this center (mainly you,
> the customer). Criticize, fantasize, but be realistic (kinda contradicts the
> notion of 'ideal', don't it?). Let your imagination run wild.
> 
>...

  Well I couldn't let this one go.With respecto to DEC Support all over
the world you simply can't go around the fact that the Usenet forum
represents a world wide database of information.

 With that in mind I must say that over the last 2 years 'comp.sys.dec' ,
'comp.unix.ultrix' and 'comp.os.vms' represent the best 'Support Center'
for me, and they don't cost me anything.
Except for our connection to Usenet , but this isn't payed
by our Department ,at least not at the moment...



  Marc Elsen (System Manager/Software Engineer)
  Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
  Dep. E.S.A.T.
  Kard. Mercierlaan 94
  3030 HEVERLEE
  Belgium
              tel. 32(0)16220931(ext. 1080)

               EMAIL : elsen@esat.kuleuven.ac.be

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