jmoore@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (James D Moore) (12/19/90)
Greetings, Recently we purchase a couple of DEC3100 stations from DEC with a TLZ04 (4mm tape backup) setup. Our DEC3100's arrived about 1 week before I started hearing that Ultrix 4.1 was being sent out with new DEC machines. Since I could not set up the systems for 2-3 weeks I had to leave them in boxes until I could get to them. Of course we received Ultrix 4.0 with our media order. I initially assumed that we would receive updates sometime in the future. When I received the TLZ04 last week I find out that it is supported under 4.1 but there is no mention of support under 4.0. Since I had read that in this group that someone had connected it to a 4.0 system and it had worked I have connected it and it appears to work. Some recent comments have given me the suspicion that DEC sends software updates only to people with the appropriate software support (purchased from them of course). Should I be screaming at DEC about getting Ultrix 4.1? After all when we ordered the entire system we also placed the order for the TLZ04 at the same time. One of the reasons for us ordering when we did was that we were told that X11R4 would be shipped with Ultrix 4.0. Now we find that 4.0 does not have R4 supported and that 4.1 does. Any comments on how I should approach DEC about this? I beleive that DEC should supply the most recent software when a complete system is ordered especially if one of the major components is going to require a software revision like the TLZ04 (which by the way has a patch tape included for Ultrix 4.1). Comments? Suggestions? Are you listening DEC ??? -- James D. Moore jmoore@ecn.purdue.edu Computer Engineer Phone:(317) 494-2686 Purdue University, Industrial Engr. Dept., W. Lafayette, In 47907
alan@shodha.enet.dec.com ( Alan's Home for Wayward Notes File.) (12/21/90)
This reply is mostly a commentary on how things ought to work and some suggestions on how to get there from here. It is NOT an official statement by Digital Equipment Corp. (henceforth called DEC). DEC does not read News though many of the people that work there do. In article <1990Dec19.135709.3689@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, jmoore@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (James D Moore) writes: > > Greetings, > > Recently we purchase a couple of DEC3100 stations from DEC with a TLZ04 > (4mm tape backup) setup. Our DEC3100's arrived about 1 week before I > started hearing that Ultrix 4.1 was being sent out with new DEC machines. > Since I could not set up the systems for 2-3 weeks I had to leave them in > boxes until I could get to them. Of course we received Ultrix 4.0 with our > media order. I initially assumed that we would receive updates sometime in > the future. When I received the TLZ04 last week I find out that it is > supported under 4.1 but there is no mention of support under 4.0. Since I > had read that in this group that someone had connected it to a 4.0 system > and it had worked I have connected it and it appears to work. I took a look at the V4.0 Software Product Description and for the DECsystem 3100 and DECstation 3100S, the TLZ04 is listed as supported. It appears that UWS V4.0 has a seperate SPD. You should be able to find one in the documentation that came with the media. If the SPD says that the TLZ04 is supported then you shouldn't need V4.1. You also probably want to look a piece of paper that says "Software Warranty Addendum". This may be very important later. There is big difference between "it works" and "it is supported". SUPPORTED says that we've tested it to the satisfaction of the various Q/A groups and that it should work correctly in all supported configurations. Quite often something will work fine under all conditions and configurations, but isn't supported because the testing hasn't been finished. Sometimes support is merely a matter of teaching the error log formatting program (uerf) what the correct name of a device is. And of course there are times when UNSUPPORTED means that doesn't work and can't be made to work no matter how hard try. I believe the SPD is our legal statement of what is SUPPORTED. If something doesn't work as expected then we may be obligated to fix it. That's why you need to look at the "Software Warranty Addendum". We may, for example only be obligated to fix it for people that are paying for a support contract. Support contacts come in all shapes and sizes. Check with your local DEC office to see if there is one that is suitable. > > Some recent comments have given me the suspicion that DEC sends software > updates only to people with the appropriate software support (purchased > from them of course). Updates are part of the service we sell. > Should I be screaming at DEC about getting Ultrix 4.1? You should never scream. It tends to make people react in a negitive way. Always hold back screaming as a last resort. As far as the TLZ04 goes, check the SPD you have to see if it is listed as supported. If it is, then you might want to have your DEC sales person double check for you. I was under the impression that it wasn't supported until V4.1. SPD have been slightly wrong in the past. It may that you merely have to apply a paper patch to the system to fix whatever it is that causes the TLZ04 to not be supported. If V4.1 is indeed required, then you should go back to your DEC salesperson and explain the problem. There is a fair chance they will see the problem and "Do the Right Thing" on your behalf. On the chance they don't for what- ever reason you can start walking up the management chain to get the problem solved. > After all when we ordered the entire system we also placed the order for > the TLZ04 at the same time. One of the reasons for us ordering when we > did was that we were told that X11R4 would be shipped with Ultrix 4.0. > Now we find that 4.0 does not have R4 supported and that 4.1 does. > Any comments on how I should approach DEC about this? Rationally and politely. You see, LEGALLY we may not owe you anything. And there are people that will look at that and say "Sorry". Other people will look at it and say, "I'll do what I can". > > I beleive that DEC should supply the most recent software when a complete > system is ordered especially if one of the major components is going to > require a software revision like the TLZ04 (which by the way has a patch > tape included for Ultrix 4.1). "Most recent software" is a strange concept. For example today V4.1 is the current version of the software in the U.S. It SHOULD be what our software distribution center sends to customers when they order something. All to often someone will get the recently previous version because that was what was on the shelf. Europe though V4.0 is current. The people that package and distribute the software probably know very little about ULTRIX (or VMS for that matter). They probably have a piece of paper somewhere that says "This part number is current". If they put V4.0 in the box with your name on it because V4.0 was current that day and V4.1 became current the next day then you got hit by bad timing you had no control over. > Comments? Suggestions? The TLZ04 is simple. Either it is supported by V4.0 or it isn't. If it isn't then you need to work it out with your DEC salesperson. If there is some other feature of V4.0 that isn't there that you were expecting (X11R4 for example) then you'll need to also work that out with the salesperson. > Are you listening DEC ??? Officially no. This newsgroup is NOT an official support channel. If you want somebody to listen offically then you need to find somebody whose job is to listen officially. I don't know anybody whose job is read USENET news. > > -- > James D. Moore jmoore@ecn.purdue.edu > Computer Engineer Phone:(317) 494-2686 > Purdue University, Industrial Engr. Dept., W. Lafayette, In 47907 -- Alan Rollow alan@nabeth.enet.dec.com
jmoore@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (James D Moore) (12/21/90)
In article <2173@shodha.enet.dec.com> alan@shodha.enet.dec.com ( Alan's Home for Wayward Notes File.) writes: > > This reply is mostly a commentary on how things ought to work > and some suggestions on how to get there from here. It is NOT > an official statement by Digital Equipment Corp. (henceforth > called DEC). DEC does not read News though many of the people > that work there do. > OK ! I appreciate the straight forward statement of this. >In article <1990Dec19.135709.3689@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, jmoore@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (James D Moore) writes: > I took a look at the V4.0 Software Product Description > and for the DECsystem 3100 and DECstation 3100S, the > TLZ04 is listed as supported. It appears that UWS V4.0 > has a seperate SPD. You should be able to find one in > the documentation that came with the media. If the SPD > says that the TLZ04 is supported then you shouldn't need > V4.1. > I did this and it appears that it does indeed show it as supported in the UWS 4.0 also. I was not able to find the V4.0 Software Product Descriptipon but will take your word on it. This is the type of information I was looking for. > You also probably want to look a piece of paper that says > "Software Warranty Addendum". This may be very important > later. I am looking for this one for my records also.... I have too much documentation I have not looked at yet but I will keep looking. > (portion of article deleted) > >> >> Some recent comments have given me the suspicion that DEC sends software >> updates only to people with the appropriate software support (purchased >> from them of course). > > Updates are part of the service we sell. > >> Should I be screaming at DEC about getting Ultrix 4.1? > > You should never scream. It tends to make people react > in a negitive way. Always hold back screaming as a last > resort. > I apollogize here if my article seemed to be a flame to DEC. This is not my normal mode of operation. I did not intend to scream at anyone. Please substitute "complain to" for "scream at". After all I agree with what you said. I stand corrected.... > As far as the TLZ04 goes, check the SPD you have to see > if it is listed as supported. If it is, then you might > want to have your DEC sales person double check for you. > I was under the impression that it wasn't supported until > V4.1. SPD have been slightly wrong in the past. It may > that you merely have to apply a paper patch to the system > to fix whatever it is that causes the TLZ04 to not be > supported. > I am currently checking into this (I am on the phone with DEC as I type this). Someone is checking for me about it and I am on hold. > If V4.1 is indeed required, then you should go back to > your DEC salesperson and explain the problem. There is > a fair chance they will see the problem and "Do the Right > Thing" on your behalf. On the chance they don't for what- > ever reason you can start walking up the management chain > to get the problem solved. > I have contacted my Sales Rep about this but he has not contacted me back yet. Understandable since it is pretty close to the hollidays. He ususaly is prompt to contact me in a reasonably short time. >> After all when we ordered the entire system we also placed the order for >> the TLZ04 at the same time. One of the reasons for us ordering when we >> did was that we were told that X11R4 would be shipped with Ultrix 4.0. >> Now we find that 4.0 does not have R4 supported and that 4.1 does. >> Any comments on how I should approach DEC about this? > > Rationally and politely. You see, LEGALLY we may not owe > you anything. And there are people that will look at that > and say "Sorry". Other people will look at it and say, "I'll > do what I can". > That is the approach I have taken. >> >> I beleive that DEC should supply the most recent software when a complete >> system is ordered especially if one of the major components is going to >> require a software revision like the TLZ04 (which by the way has a patch >> tape included for Ultrix 4.1). > > "Most recent software" is a strange concept. For example today > V4.1 is the current version of the software in the U.S. It SHOULD > be what our software distribution center sends to customers when > they order something. All to often someone will get the recently > previous version because that was what was on the shelf. Europe > though V4.0 is current. (some portion of the article deleted) The point I was trying to make here (which I did so uneloquently) is that I believe it to be good policy to provide updates to customers who recieve a software distribution just before a new release. Lets say for example anyone who can show they purchased the distribution within 3 months of the new release. I realize that it is not always possible but it has been done. > >> Comments? Suggestions? > > The TLZ04 is simple. Either it is supported by V4.0 or it > isn't. If it isn't then you need to work it out with your > DEC salesperson. As it happens I just got off of the phone with DEC support. While the TLZ04 is a supported system under Ultrix 4.0 it does have a bug that will not allow you to restore on multi media dumps. The dumps are OK but you cannot restore them beyond the first tape. This is what the patch for 4.1 is supposed to fix. There is no patch for Ultrix 4.0 available so DEC is going to be doing the right thing and get me a copy of the 4.1 update tape. One user I was told had tried to patch his 4.0 system with the 4.1 one tape and it resulted in his system crashing. > > If there is some other feature of V4.0 that isn't there that > you were expecting (X11R4 for example) then you'll need to > also work that out with the salesperson. > I have already done this. Thanks for the advice. >> Are you listening DEC ??? > > Officially no. This newsgroup is NOT an official support > channel. If you want somebody to listen offically then you > need to find somebody whose job is to listen officially. I > don't know anybody whose job is read USENET news. I will disregard the above comments since they probably are an interpretation of my un-eloquence. Again my comments were never intended as a flame or a comment of DEC support in a derogatory way. >-- >Alan Rollow alan@nabeth.enet.dec.com Thanks Alan for your reply ... unofficial that is.... Jim Moore -- James D. Moore jmoore@ecn.purdue.edu Computer Engineer Phone:(317) 494-2686 Purdue University, Industrial Engr. Dept., W. Lafayette, In 47907
mok@fortsc.enet.dec.com (Charles P. Mok) (12/22/90)
In article <1990Dec21.154732.21748@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, jmoore@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (James D Moore) writes... >I will disregard the above comments since they probably are an interpretation >of my un-eloquence. Again my comments were never intended as a flame or a >comment of DEC support in a derogatory way. ... > >Jim Moore > >-- >James D. Moore jmoore@ecn.purdue.edu >Computer Engineer Phone:(317) 494-2686 >Purdue University, Industrial Engr. Dept., W. Lafayette, In 47907 Jim, don't have to "apologize." After all, you are the customer and we should be here to support and help you solve *your* problems, not ours. Thank you. And Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. DECie and Boiler as well, Charles --- Charles Mok/Digital Equipment Corporation Santa Clara Commercial District INTERNET: mok@fortsc.enet.dec.com UUCP: ....!decwrl!fortsc.dec.enet.com!mok ---
carter@ferrari.mst6.lanl.gov (Dave Carter) (12/22/90)
In article <1990Dec21.154732.21748@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> jmoore@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (James D Moore) writes: >In article <2173@shodha.enet.dec.com> alan@shodha.enet.dec.com ( Alan's Home for Wayward Notes File.) writes: >> >> This reply is mostly a commentary on how things ought to work >> and some suggestions on how to get there from here. It is NOT >> an official statement by Digital Equipment Corp. (henceforth >> called DEC). DEC does not read News though many of the people >> that work there do. maybe DEC should? i mean, if DEC is truly interested in customer support, as i know they are (being a former employee of DEC), maybe they should have someone responsible for answering questions and relating the problems that are brought up in comp.sys.dec and comp.unix.ultrix (etc.) to the appropriate people. - dave