len@qumix.UUCP (Leonard Labar) (09/04/85)
Has anyone done market research on what's needed for a HOME pc? My feeling is this: 1. Built-in printer and display, both quality, 2. Canned programs in ROM -a. Word Processing, b. Data Base Management, c. Spreadsheet financial planners, d. Other? I don't see the need for a disk drive or tape storeage but would use eeprom for storeage. 128k of Ram should be adequate. Cost should be around $500. Decent keyboard and portable, using minimum desk space. What's out there now that meets the bill? I think anything more than this is Marketing hype.
cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) (09/12/85)
[Slightly spaced out for clarity, not me!, the text. ] > Has anyone done market research on what's needed for a HOME pc? My > feeling is this: > 1. Built-in printer and display, both quality, Built in printer? I think the needs of various home users are diverse enough the merit different types of printers. People who use a home computer for correspondence and writing would most likely want a small LQ printer, like the Atari one or one of the Silver Reed types, whereas people who only rarely print things out would probably want to save the bucks and get a thermal or ink-jet dot matrix printer. > 2. Canned programs in ROM -a. Word Processing, b. Data Base Management, > c. Spreadsheet financial planners, d. Other? This works Ok for the most part except on new machines or new programs. A lot of software houses still have problems with writing "ROMmable" code. Some of it is programming style, some of it is due to the compilers they are using. Either way this would/could limit your options. [You will note the number of cartridges available for the PCjr] > I don't see the need for a disk drive or tape storeage but would > use eeprom for storeage. Hmmm, you don't write many documents do you. If you look at your applications above, each manipulate data structures that can be several thousands of bytes long. Since the only production EEPROMs around seem to be 2K X 8 (there are some 8K but they aren't very stable yet) you will need a LARGE number of them for your mass storage. You would be better off using Epson's technique of battery backed up RAM for mass storage. You should also consider that as a general rule of thumb the minimum amount of mass storage provided for a system should be 10 times the amount of main memory. And at least 5% of that should be removeable (although this is not always the case) So for your 128K system (see below) you should have 1.2 Mbytes of storage, that's 640 2K EEPROMS or 160 8K EEPROMs. Some of which should be removable (programmable cartridges?) > 128k of Ram should be adequate. Cost should be around $500. Decent > keyboard and portable, using minimum desk space. Using current technology you could build this sort of system (sans EEPROMs) into a large keyboard enclosure. Since single sided disk drives are about $25 around here you could save some money by putting two of these in a box at either end. It probably wouldn't run on batteries but it would be portable. The Sept Byte has an article on a single board computer that you could build into a "lunch box" with two 3.5" floppies and a mode, but you would still need a terminal. That system would cost ~$500 after integration. RCA has a complete terminal in a keyboard called the APT, you still need to add a monitor and now we are up to three pieces so it has become less portable. > What's out there now that meets the bill? I think anything more > than this is Marketing hype. Nothing "off the shelf." A PCjr with a floppy meets most of your requirements but lacks the small footprint. A grid Compass meets all of your requirements but comes in at over $7000. If you hadn't guessed, a system that meets your mass storage requirement would probably be unusable. Might as well go with a floppy or two. (The 3.5 " ones are really small, and better protected against the environment too. I would be interested to here if you find such a system. --Chuck -- - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - {ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ All opinions expressed herein are my {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem own and not those of my employer, my {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ friends, or my avocado plant. :-}
sambo@ukma.UUCP (Father of micro-ln) (09/15/85)
In article <86@intelca.UUCP> cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >> Has anyone done market research on what's needed for a HOME pc? My >> feeling is this: >> I don't see the need for a disk drive or tape storeage but would >> use eeprom for storeage. > >You would be >better off using Epson's technique of battery backed up RAM for mass >storage. You should also consider that as a general rule of thumb the >minimum amount of mass storage provided for a system should be 10 times >the amount of main memory. And at least 5% of that should be removeable >(although this is not always the case) Intel makes bubble memory. Although I have no idea if this would be a suit- able system for this application, at least such a thing is reported to exist. Intel even has a bubble memory cassette system, which is removable. -- Samuel A. Figueroa, Dept. of CS, Univ. of KY, Lexington, KY 40506-0027 ARPA: ukma!sambo<@ANL-MCS>, or sambo%ukma.uucp@anl-mcs.arpa, or even anlams!ukma!sambo@ucbvax.arpa UUCP: {ucbvax,unmvax,boulder,oddjob}!anlams!ukma!sambo, or cbosgd!ukma!sambo "Micro-ln is great, if only people would start using it."
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (09/16/85)
In article <2190@ukma.UUCP> sambo@ukma.UUCP (Father of micro-ln) writes: >Intel makes bubble memory. Although I have no idea if this would be a suit- >able system for this application, at least such a thing is reported to exist. >Intel even has a bubble memory cassette system, which is removable. Forget bubbles. Everyone else has. EEPROM, however, is a successful technology which is going to get even better/cheaper/denser/faster. -- We changed Coke again. hee hee Phil Ngai (408) 749-5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPA
cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) (09/16/85)
Samuel A. Figueroa writes : (discussing mass storage for a generic home pc.) > Intel makes bubble memory. Although I have no idea if this would be a suit- > able system for this application, at least such a thing is reported to exist. > Intel even has a bubble memory cassette system, which is removable. I didn't mention bubbles because of their cost. Bubbles are great for really hazardous environments and extreme shock conditions etc. The 4 meg ones even give you more storage than a minifloppy on a cassette. However, with 256K ram's available for $2.77 a piece it is more economical for a home computer to use ram. If you are going to use this in the lab get bubbles. If it is going to sit by the couch or on your desk use the rams. --Chuck -- - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - {ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ All opinions expressed herein are my {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem own and not those of my employer, my {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ friends, or my avocado plant. :-}
rb@ccivax.UUCP (rex ballard) (09/24/85)
> In article <86@intelca.UUCP> cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: > >> Has anyone done market research on what's needed for a HOME pc? > >> I don't see the need for a disk drive or tape storeage but would > >> use eeprom for storeage. > > > >You would be > >better off using Epson's technique of battery backed up RAM for mass > >storage. > > Intel makes bubble memory. > Intel even has a bubble memory cassette system, which is removable. Any of the alternatives above would be acceptable except for the cost. The most important factor in a home (or truly personal) computer is expense. EEPROMS have limited write ability, usefull for storing "boot parameters", but not word processing. Battery backed RAM, would be suitable for small quantities, but "switching cartriges", is very risky business. Bubble memory is very expensive, mainly intended for "abusive" situations like factories, vehicles... Several good things have been done with tape, but the access time tends to be a little slow. Caching, ram-disks, and very high-speed transports could make tape useful as a mass storage media, but defeat the original goal of providing the user a familiar, low cost interface. The first question to answer is, "what does a HOME computer need to do?", if it is only a game machine, cartridges are ok. If it is an educational resource, CD-ROM provides a very good answer (Prices would have to be about the same as the computer). If you are using it to enhance other hobbies, such as drafting a model airplane or creating a knitting pattern, then some sort of removable media is indicated. A HOME computer is really a misnomer. Unfortunately, most people equate a PERSONAL computer with a "business desk-top" purchased buy large corporations who can afford these "executive machines". A personal computer should be one you can afford to buy for yourself!! The company may put one on your desk, but you should be able to afford your own if you want it. In fact, many businesses need an affordable business computer to replace obsolete "Text-only" terminals connected to large mainframes. Unfortunately, replacing 1000 'tubes' with $2000-$5000 "IBM compatibles" (which aren't), can be too much of an investment (Not to mention the VAX owners who don't trust IBM's methods). 3 1/2 inch floppies provide a convenient way to carry several megabytes in a coat pocket or purse (just blow off the lint, and plug them in). If a "standard interface", such as SCSI could be adopted by all drive makers, users could choose models with price/performance that best meets their needs. If a "microfloppies" were available for between $50 and $250 with varying response times, storage capacities... for any computer from a C64 to a VAX 11/780, using the same interface, (the way a cassette drive is available for any reciever via "phono plugs"), Microfloppies have parallels in the Audio industry. Records give very good response for a few plays, but wear down. Reel-Reel tape gives good sound, but are inconvenient to handle. Cassetes provide a media that is convenient! It is the convenience that becomes a major factor (sound is not as good, but you can play it in your car, home stereo, or "walk-player". You can get better sound from a "dolby/DBX/equalized/3-head/microferrite-head..." player, but you can also play it on a <$20 player. Sony offers drives that go twice as fast as "normal" drives (600rpm vs 300rpm), and a "speed independent interface" would allow you to take advantage of this. You could even use "threaded shaft" head positioning for a very low cost drive. Using a ram-disk, or read-ahead caching, or other "optimisers" would allow you do reduce wait times a little. Of course, with a "device independent" interface (GPIB,SCSI,????), you could also use hard drives, streamer tape, CD-ROM, WORM, various laser, and even a VCR as storage media. These Opinions have nothing to do with CCI, it's employees, or it's Management. They were mine, but I share them in hope they will benefit others. (The world looks different when your upside-down)
berger@datacube.UUCP (09/27/85)
EEPROM storage!? I just got a 20 Meg drive for my Mac and its already over half full! I like having everything on-line. Computer designers must get this scarcity mindset out of thier heads! CD-ROMS and Mega-byte RAMS and 68020's are just the begining. A whole new way of doing things are about to open up. Home personal engines capable of being low-cost AI engines. Now maybe we can make computers that meet peoples needs! (Or at least much better user interfaces) Bob Berger Datacube Inc. 4 Dearborn Rd. Peabody, Ma 01960 617-535-6644 ihnp4!datacube!berger decvax!cca!mirror!datacube!berger {mit-eddie,cyb0vax}!mirror!datacube!berger
revc@gwsd.UUCP (Bob Van Cleef) (09/27/85)
One thing that is needed for a true home computer is multi-tasking, multi-user. Multi-Tasking: You will never get someone to use their machine for recipes if they have to disable the environmental monitors to bring up the recipe program. No one will be happy using it as a telepone directory if they have to abort their personal finance programs just to look up a phone number or take notes on an incoming call. Multi-User: The cook will not go into the den to get a recipe, the student will not go into the kitchen to check the spelling of a word. You should have the ability to scatter terminals throughout the house. You need the ability to connect the above mentioned environmental monitors. And everyone should be able to use it when THEY want to, not when daddy is done with it. Bob ps - In my mind the AT&T Unix PC with its User Agent is the first step in this direction. -- Bob Van Cleef {ihnp4|akgua|decvax|dcdwest|ucbvax} (619) 457-2701 ...sdcsvax!gwsd!revc Gateway Computer Systems CompuServe - [71565,533] 4980 Carroll Canyon Road San Diego, CA 92121
kurt@fluke.UUCP (Kurt Guntheroth) (09/30/85)
What a home computer needs to have (my own opinion) 1. Price under $1000.00 US (1985 dollars). This is an absolute requirement because you need to make it have the same relative kind of expense as another major appliance. 2. Multitasking OS with memory protection. If you are going to use this thing to monitor security, control appliances, etc., it can't be going down all the time while you are programming it. You need a system that protects one program from another. Furthermore, if it does go down, it has to come up quickly and lot loose the state of things it is controlling. This implies a sophistication in its control software. 3. Integration with the phone system; autoanswer modem, digital storage answering machine, autodial phone numbers, automatic alarm calling, maybe packet store and forward network. 4. Integration with appliances. This is mostly a requirement that the appliances be computer controllable. There will also have to be a "universal control language" or smart, device independent control software. 5. Integration with home entertainment equipment. A computer would be the ultimate VCR timer. You can integrate the display with a TV, the storage with a CD, and the computer can control and interact with audio and video programming. 6. The system will have to have fast mass storage, and a letter quality printer. (Or a dot matrix printer if we can change our notion of what letter quality means.) 7. Whatever all the computer does, it must visibly save money to pay for its existence. If it is capable of decreasing power consumption, or can do call routing like some PBX's, or replaces other expensive devices, it will be successful. If it relies on being able to "save your recipes on disk", "help you write letters" or "educate your kids" it will be a failure. The interesting thing about all this is that it is almost possible today. Look at the Atari 520ST with its 68000, disk, and CRT for under $1000. Mostly what we're waiting for is software, and the determination to make the development effort. -- Kurt Guntheroth John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. {uw-beaver,decvax!microsof,ucbvax!lbl-csam,allegra,ssc-vax}!fluke!kurt
jp@lanl.ARPA (10/02/85)
> One thing that is needed for a true home computer is multi-tasking, multi-user. > Please! I wil take multi-tasking so I can do many things at once, but I want my own toothbrush and my own computer. Networks, maybe, but multi-user, never! Jim Potter jp@lanl.arpa
cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) (10/03/85)
> 4. Integration with appliances. This is mostly a requirement that the > appliances be computer controllable. There will also have to be a > "universal control language" or smart, device independent control software. This sort of reminds me of GE's HomeNet (tm). Anyone know what ever happened to this effort? HomeNet is/was a network based on signals sent over your house's wiring that was supposed to be standardized so that all of your appliances etc could communicate and report status to a monitoring station or computer. In college I considered such a system myself but never implemented it due to the lack of knoweledge on how to build a carrier current modem, and not quite enough motivation to modify a bunch of appliances. This seems like it might also be an application for GM's MAP protocol. --Chuck -- - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - {ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ All opinions expressed herein are my {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem own and not those of my employer, my {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ friends, or my avocado plant. :-}
rb@ccivax.UUCP (rex ballard) (10/04/85)
> Bob Van Cleef {ihnp4|akgua|decvax|dcdwest|ucbvax} > One thing that is needed for a true home computer is multi-tasking, multi-user. > > Multi-Tasking: > > You will never get someone to use their machine for recipes if they have > to disable the environmental monitors to bring up the recipe program. > No one will be happy using it as a telepone directory if they have to > abort their personal finance programs just to look up a phone number > or take notes on an incoming call. On this one I agree with you 100%. I can think of a dozen more reasons for multitasking, but time is short. > > Multi-User: > > The cook will not go into the den to get a recipe, the student will > not go into the kitchen to check the spelling of a word. You should > have the ability to scatter terminals throughout the house. You need > the ability to connect the above mentioned environmental monitors. > And everyone should be able to use it when THEY want to, not when > daddy is done with it. > On this one, there are times when multi-user is desirable (Like being able to run a BBS in the background), but if you want everyone to use it when THEY want to, the cost of graphics (you do want graphics don't you),... in a "Terminal" will raise the price well above that of an ATARI-ST. I think "True networking" is more important than simple ASCII ^^(remote file management ie-open, close, read, write, seek, & flush of remote FILES rather than DEVICES, or "Whole file transferr") Multi-User. Buy more "low cost" PC's as the family needs them, and share the "Peripherals". Add to the list: Automatic file lock on files opened for write (Unix doesn't provide that yet). you don't have system administrators to "bail you out". "In use" indicators to cause delay of writes to files/devices currently being read.
dsr@ccice2.UUCP (Dave Roland) (10/04/85)
OK. What is the product? Computer service? Convenience? Entertainment? Calculator? Information system? Gadget? The problem seems to be that we are seeing the typical interface between engineering and marketing. Marketing doesn't know what is possible, and engineering can't sell the ideas. It still seems, even after all of the Search for Excellence, people with the power "KNOW" what the customer wants and don't need to ask or listen. The market is full of add on boards, cartridges, and modules to extend the pc to the home. The only problem is that the Personal Computer isn't an appliance, it wasn't designed as a process control computer. OS's with print spooling (let alone multi-tasking) were radical things. The typical response is that you can't do that much with an 8-bit micro. In a recent project an employer pushed a 6809 @ 1mhz. to access a 2000 person database, through 3 9600 baud terminals, 8 1200 baud data ports, and alot of LPC voice chips (not any great miracle). Why not an appliance? Not a Super calculator with 30 independent modules and processors. I started on a design but haven't the analog to pull it all together. When we had the house built, I installed 4 shielded twisted pairs to each room and video cable to every room. Bathrooms get just the 4 pairs. Sometimes I don't want my kids to watch specific shows. We have Cable plus two phones. What am I going to use when I subscribe to a digital news service that broadcasts on fm subcarriers? How am I going to receive my e-mail? How will I interface my checkbook program and database, and the bank's database? What about Cable tv control? audio control? security? Let's talk about an appliance. Extendable peripheral bus. Piggy-back application boards, like stereo fm tuners to feed audio channels; 1-5 watt audio amps with digital controls for audio channel selection, volume, tone, etc.; digital tv tuners with un-rf-mod video. Throw in a phone/ speaker phone board to feed the audio channels; rs-232 channel selection board. Make them stackable so you add only what you need. Oh, yes, the pc. OK, turn on the other half of the ram, the disk, and put the video display driver onto one of the video channels. Gee, you could use a standard monitor for tv, and computer in any room. WOW!, the same sound system for music, phone, intercom, tv sound, computer output. Gee, you could maintain control over each room's video and audio output under database control. In the mean time, (before I get the circuits designed, put it on the market and become rich), when will someone produce a digital interface for a tv tuner to produce composite video? How about a digital interface for video switching (It is alot easier when you are not playing with rf-mod)? What about 1-5 watt audio amplifiers with a simple digital interface to control volume, tone, channel selection? How about a vcr with a digital control interface? Have I raised enough questions? As I am Leaving CCI 10-11-85, you are welcome to respond to the following address: David S. Roland Roland Projects PO Box 126 Walworth, New York 14568 bye! DISCLAIMER: As is usual, the preceeding dissertation has absolutely nothing to do with the opinions of my past, or present employers, and something to do with the near future.