peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu (04/02/91)
This isn't exactly comp.editors material, but I believe it's something we (who are chained to the keyboard) all have strong opinions on : What *keyboards* do people prefer? In the course of a day, I may be using the Apple extended keyboard, a DEC LK201, or a Sparcstation keyboard, or a IBM extended keyboard. What keyboards do people hate? Who is forced to use a keyboard thats too skwishy, to awkward? (I had to teach a semester of Pascal to some unfortunate students using DEC VT100 terminals, last year. Poor souls!) I personally will go out of my way (through terminal emulation, file transfer) so that I can use a DEC LK201 keyboard. I am afraid that I have permanently sprained my left thumb by using the Apple extended keyboard with its "Command" key write below the 'X'. If I changed jobs I'd like to have my own personal keyboard to carry around and plug into any computer. Having my choice of editor is (although close) secondary. James +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ + James Peregrino | JPEREGRINO@HBSSTG.HARVARD.EDU + + Programmer/Analyst | PEREGRIN@STIG.HARVARD.EDU + + Science & Technology Interest Group | JPEREGRINO@HBS.HBS.HARVARD.EDU + + Harvard Business School | PEREGRIN@HULAW1.BITNET + + Boston, MA 02163 +-----------------------------------+ + Voice: (617)495-6307 | My opinions are only my own and + + FAX: (617)495-0351 | never H.B.S's. + +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
rwaters@jabba.ess.harris.com (Ralph Waters) (04/03/91)
In <1991Apr2.104658.1@hulaw1.harvard.edu> peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu writes: > What keyboards do people hate? Who is forced to use a keyboard thats >too skwishy, to awkward? (I had to teach a semester of Pascal to some >unfortunate students using DEC VT100 terminals, last year. Poor souls!) Personally, I like the VT100 keyboard. I have very heavy typing fingers, so the stiff keys work very well for me. Of course, I may have the heavy touch because I use a VT100 :-) -- Ralph Waters rwaters@jabba.ess.harris.com Harris Corporation GISD, Melbourne, Florida - The sooner you fall behind, the longer you have to catch up -
torek@elf.ee.lbl.gov (Chris Torek) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr2.104658.1@hulaw1.harvard.edu> peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu writes: > What *keyboards* do people prefer? To misquote Hal Hickman, ``Favourite keyboards are like assholes -- everyone's got one, but nobody wants to touch the other guy's.'' [If the above offends you, mentally substitute in `rectal orifices'. :-) ] > I personally will go out of my way (through terminal emulation, file >transfer) so that I can use a DEC LK201 keyboard. Ugh. (See what I mean?) Touch typists often prefer anything `reasonably close' to a Selectric layout. In particular, this precludes inserting a key between Z and SHIFT on the left, and between the '" and RETURN keys on the right. Unfortunately, both the DEC LK keyboards and the Sun type-4 keyboards commit at least one of these errors. It is, of course, impossible to duplicate a Selectric layout exactly, since computer keyboards have pesky `extras' like CTRL, ESC, `~, and \| keys. The one correct solution to the problem is to have *standard*, *interchangeable* keyboards, so that people can choose their own favourite layout and PLUG IT IN TO ANYTHING. This, being too sensible, will never occur. -- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Lawrence Berkeley Lab CSE/EE (+1 415 486 5427) Berkeley, CA Domain: torek@ee.lbl.gov
peter@ficc.ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr2.104658.1@hulaw1.harvard.edu> peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu writes: > What *keyboards* do people prefer? I prefer a VT100 style keyboard without the odd repeat-key weirdness that keyboard has... though that's a minor gripe. > What keyboards do people hate? I hate the new DEC IBM-PC-clone keyboards. > too skwishy, to awkward? (I had to teach a semester of Pascal to some > unfortunate students using DEC VT100 terminals, last year. Poor souls!) > I personally will go out of my way (through terminal emulation, file > transfer) so that I can use a DEC LK201 keyboard. Funny thing that... my preference is exactly reversed. Moral: this subject is entirely a matter of personal taste, and de gustibus non est disputandum. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' peter@ferranti.com +1 713 274 5180. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
alonso@maxwell.mmwb.ucsf.edu (Darwin Alonso) (04/03/91)
Actually, I would like to see some statistics of keyboard preference. I like return adjacent to '"' and ctrl adjacent to 'a', but I can stand anything except a Macintosh. I hate the Mac because, contrary to every other keyboard I have ever used, the little marker/reference nipples are on the 'd' and 'k' keys instead of the 'j' and 'f' keys. I have many choice words in at least three languages for the people who made that design decision. I don't really care about the feel/texture one way or another. Good joke about how keyboard are like "culos". Darwin O.V. Alonso alonso@maxwell.mmwb.ucsf.edu U.C. San Francisco, or wk. (415) 476-8910; home 564-8601 alonso@cgl.ucsf.edu
yfcw14@castle.ed.ac.uk (K P Donnelly) (04/03/91)
peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu writes: > What *keyboards* do people prefer? I prefer the keyboard I am used to and I hate all others. I wish manufacturers would choose one layout and stick to it instead of messing about with "improved" layouts. Sure if the `Shift' and `return' keys are in positions which avoid you having to project your pinkie (little finger) out of its socket, then that is an advantage. But it is a far less of a factor than avoiding the situation where `Control' on one keyboard is where `Shift' is on another, or `Return' on one keyboard is where `delete' is on another. Kevin Donnelly
mattl@ritcsh.csh.rit.edu (FaceMan) (04/04/91)
In article <1991Apr2.104658.1@hulaw1.harvard.edu> peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu writes: > What *keyboards* do people prefer? One keyboard I like to use a lot is a TAB132 terminal keyboard. It has a sort of mushy click that is really nice. Also the layout is pretty nice for a simple terminal. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= mattl@ritcsh.csh.rit.edu ! Swapping memory to disk is virtually indespensible.. mal6315@ultb.rit.edu ! ---------------------------------------------------- mal6315@RITVAX ! new book: "#define art of C programming..."
bill@camco.Celestial.COM (Bill Campbell) (04/04/91)
In <1991Apr2.104658.1@hulaw1.harvard.edu> peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu writes: > This isn't exactly comp.editors material, but I believe it's something >we (who are chained to the keyboard) all have strong opinions on : I believe this falls under the category of religious discussions. > What *keyboards* do people prefer? In the course of a day, I may be >using the Apple extended keyboard, a DEC LK201, or a Sparcstation keyboard, or a If it were a perfect world, I would like something along the lines of the Wyse-50 ansi keyboard. It's very close to a Selectric so is comfortable for touch typing, has function keys above the keypad making it excellent for data entry, and has a good feel. Since it's not a perfect world I prefer the 101 key ``enhanced'' keyboards once I got used to the out-of-position CTRL and ESC keys (I still hit CAPS-LOCK occassionally when going for CTRL). My main desire is to be able to have the same keyboard on all the machines/terminals I use so I don't have to reorient myself every time I sit down. The biggest complaint I have with these keyboards is that there are several variations on the |\ keys and the size/shape of the ENTER key. I prefer using the IOCOMM ``Wave'' keyboard (actually 102 keys with two ``\|'' on either side of the space bar between the CTRL and ALT keys). Excellent feel, palm rest below the space bar and they seem to be built to last. Bill Campbell -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software UUCP: ...!thebes!camco!bill 6641 East Mercer Way uunet!camco!bill Mercer Island, WA 98040; (206) 947-5591
mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel) (04/04/91)
I'm going to sound silly in public again... Oh well.
I like the Commodore 64 keyboard. It's not perfect, but it's a
nice keyboard for a programmer. Many of the keys that I use most often
are in awful places on most keyboards. You have to shift to get +, *,
and ^ for instance. (I don't need to tell you how often + and * are
used; ^ is useful to me both for Maple and in the C-shell.) Not on the C64!
The @ key is also a "natural" on this keyboard (nice for email, among other
things). I also count as a plus that the return key isn't too big, but I
realize that others will disagree with me violently on this.
It does have some flaws however. There are no {, }, `, _ and \ keys.
(Other keys are mapped into these characters in software. The placement
is therefore different for just about every program you use.) The
characters " and ' are in their typewriter positions. (I can live with
that since I learned to touch typing on a typewriter. Others aren't so
forgiving.) I find that the proper placement of + and * more than make
up for other deficiencies however.
All in all, I think that with some minor adjustments, the C64
keyboard could be a very productive one for programmers. The C64 itself
may be a toy, but its keyboard certainly isn't.
Sincerely,
Marc R. Roussel
mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.caweimer@garden.ssd.kodak.com (Gary Weimer (253-7796)) (04/05/91)
In article <18196@cgl.ucsf.EDU>, alonso@maxwell.mmwb.ucsf.edu (Darwin Alonso) writes: |> I hate the Mac because, contrary to every other keyboard I have ever used, |> the little marker/reference nipples are on the 'd' and |> 'k' keys instead of the 'j' and 'f' keys. I have many choice words in |> at least three languages for the people who made that design decision. I think Macs are the only keyboard that got it right. I don't know about you, but my middle fingers are longer than my pointer fingers. Hence, they tend to touch the d and k keys while my pointer fingers are "floating" over the j and f keys. They were also smart enough to put the nipples in the middle of the key were I tend to put my finger instead of on the very edge of the key (see sun-4 keyboard). Well, so much for a universal keyboard :-) weimer@ssd.kodak.com ( Gary Weimer )
xiaoy@ecf.toronto.edu (XIAO Yan) (04/05/91)
Talking about keyboard, just curious about how you guys cope with keyboards with CTRL key below SHIFT key while CAPS/LOCK next to A key. I sometimes run across these keyboards (Mac, Some 101's, SGI's PI etc) and have no idea of how people can correct typing errors. Being an impefect touch typist I need CTRL-H all the time. Though some machines give you the option of re-configurating the layout. Can any of you touch typists of less-than-perfect give me some hint of how to correct typing errors? (Hope keyboard designers are listening.) Xiao
peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu (04/05/91)
In article <1991Apr4.214903.5040@ecf.utoronto.ca>, xiaoy@ecf.toronto.edu (XIAO Yan) writes: > > Talking about keyboard, just curious about how you guys cope with keyboards > with CTRL key below SHIFT key while CAPS/LOCK next to A key. > > I sometimes run across these keyboards (Mac, Some 101's, SGI's PI etc) and > have no idea of how people can correct typing errors. Being an impefect > touch typist I need CTRL-H all the time. > ... I'm a touch typist and I find I hit the backspace key frequently. Luckily that key is in the same place on most keyboards. Except the VT100 where I always end up hitting the break key (often with disasterous results to the session...). Do many people redefine a backspace or delete key binding in their editor so that it is easier/faster to reach? Do people always define, for example, ^d as a backspace key? I never use the delete-current-character keystroke/binding. I always backspace over it, even if I can hop the cursor to the mistake instantly by backing up with a go-backward or search command. Given how sloppily I type, I probably would reverse the space bar and backspace key if I could. :-) James +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | James Peregrino | JPEREGRINO@HBSSTG.HARVARD.EDU | | Programmer/Analyst | PEREGRIN@HULAW1.BITNET | | Science & Technology Interest Group +-----------------------------------+ | Harvard Business School | HBS neither expresses nor implies | | Boston, MA 02163 | any warranty in any of the | | Voice:(617)495-6307 FAX:(617)495-0351 | opinions or alleged facts herein. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
ham@hpcc01.HP.COM (Bob Hamilton) (04/06/91)
> What *keyboards* do people prefer?
I really miss the IBM selectric style keyboard. It's the only
one I've ever felt comfortable typing on.
I'd like to see someone invent a keyboard with user-positionable keys
(i.e. the key can be placed in the slot of the user's choice, and
emits its identity when typed).
--Bob Hamilton |
Corporate Quality Information Systems | Sometimes, it really
Hewlett-Packard Mail Stop 29AK | helps to know what
3172 Porter Drive | you're trying to do.
Palo Alto, California 94304 |
(415) 857-6025 ham@corp.hp.com |gast@maui.cs.ucla.edu (David Gast) (04/06/91)
>peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu writes: > What *keyboards* do people prefer? I prefer a keyboard where the caps lock key is in the other room. (1) The control key should be next to the "A". My other preferences are not so strong as these. I also hate noisy keyboards. David (1) I'll settle for any place where it is not easily hit since I never use it. Definitely not next to the "A" key. When I use X, no key is bound to caps lock.
lutwak@athena.mit.edu (Robert Lutwak) (04/08/91)
> What *keyboards* do people prefer?
o.k. I've been watching this go by for almost a week now, and I just
HAVE to add my $0.02 worth.
We just got a NeXT station here. This is in many respects a wonderful
machine. However, the |, `, ~, and \ keys are all located on the numeric
keypad and are not accesssible by any stretch of the pinky from the regular
keyboard.
Note: This is a Unix machine.
I like every other keyboard in the world better.dwork@brahms.amd.com (Jeff Dwork) (04/09/91)
(Sorry, lost the original msg) > >> What *keyboards* do people prefer? > I like my HDS-2000. Ctrl is next to A, Shift is next to Z. There is a meta key below left shift that is configurable to send an ESC-key sequence when you press key while meta is held down. Caps Lock is to the right and below right shift. Line feed is above Caps lock. Cursor keys are to the right of keyboard, keypad (vt100 style) to the right of that. Function keys are above. All function keys and things like Backspace, Delete, and several more are user definable. I can even set up a function key to define other keys - great for when I switched between VM/CMS and unix systems. -- Jeff Dwork | 408-749-2356 | dwork@AMD.COM Advanced Micro Devices, M/S 45 |--------------------------------------- PO Box 3453 | The above opionions are mine, Sunnyvale, Ca 94088 | not AMD's.
beldin@peachs.enet.dec.com (Rick Beldin) (04/09/91)
Working for the company that makes the lk201, I'll have to admit that I am biased ;-). However, here are some thoughts about keyboards: - they are silent (unlike the vt100 kb I am using now) - they are lightweight - they have really long cords - they don't have a stupid mushy feel. I don't happen to like the lk401 or the keyboad on Sparcstation that we have - that one really drives me nuts. I once saw a paper (for internal use only) that had the results of the test that used in designing the lk201 and the keypad layout in the EVE keypad. Interesting. I never thought that so much work went into designing something I take for granted. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Rick Beldin email: beldin@rhett.enet.dec.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | Graphics and Applications Support | | Alpharetta, GA | | | | "Opinions expressed are my own - definitely not those of my employer" | | | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu (04/09/91)
Well, I think it's time to move this discussion off this newsgroup. After posting this question I learned: 1) Some people really do like the VT100 keyboard! 2) There has been an attempt in the past to develope a personal, portable keyboard. Seems on the order of trying to create a new i/o bus standard. 3) It is human nature when creating an object to make it unique. Finally, a parting word: What would make computer manufactures standardize an interface for keyboards to that a 3rd party to make a personal keyboard? -Answer: Sue the pants off them for the damage they do to our wrists, thumbs and pinkies as we contort our hands to reach the Control, Command, Meta, Caps Lock, ESCape, and '~' keys. *Flame +* I state that Apple's Extended Keyboard has taken years off the life of my left thumb due to the placement of the command key. *Flame -* Hands come in different shapes, lengths, strengths, and plus or minus some digits. So should the keyboards. James +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | James Peregrino | JPEREGRINO@HBSSTG.HARVARD.EDU | | Programmer/Analyst | PEREGRIN@HULAW1.BITNET | | Science & Technology Interest Group +-----------------------------------+ | Harvard Business School | HBS neither expresses nor implies | | Boston, MA 02163 | any warranty in any of the | | Voice:(617)495-6307 FAX:(617)495-0351 | opinions or alleged facts herein. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen) (04/10/91)
ham@hpcc01.HP.COM (Bob Hamilton) writes: >I'd like to see someone invent a keyboard with user-positionable keys >(i.e. the key can be placed in the slot of the user's choice, and >emits its identity when typed). This reminds me... I've been meaning to ask about the Dworak keyboard. Now it would certainly seem that it is language-dependent. So the question is what is the method for determining the optimal keyboard (dworak or even better ergonomically if there are inoptimal characteristics with dworak) for a given language. I know it has something to do with letterpairs (or triplets?), but what should the frequency order be with regard to positioning on the keyboard, exactly? What languages have already had their dworak' or dworak'' determined? -- "The Man In Blue" // ***That's it!*** // (Merlin, in Excalibur (Sword of Power) ============================================================================= jvh@clinet.fi // Jussi-Ville "J-V" Heiskanen A.K.A. Sokrates jr.
marz@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (martin.zam) (04/14/91)
I just know I'm going to regret this, but here goes. Of all of the keyboards I use, and that is a considerable number, I like the one on the AT&T 3B1 the best. It has a very snappy feel when it goes over-center in each keystroke and a very positive, but non-jarring hard stop at the bottom. Old technology or otherwise, whoever designed this thing probably typed just like me, a very fast non-touch typist. Other keyboards I use are AT&T 5425, AT&T 6386WGS, Chicony 101 (at home) AT&T PC6300 (yuk), DEC vt102, AT&T 615 and dozens of others over the last 11 years or so. Flame away if you must, Martin Zam (201)564-2554
vancleef@iastate.edu (Van Cleef Henry H) (04/14/91)
In article <rwaters.670615110@jabba> rwaters@jabba.ess.harris.com writes: >In <1991Apr2.104658.1@hulaw1.harvard.edu> peregrin@hulaw1.harvard.edu writes: > > >> What keyboards do people hate? Who is forced to use a keyboard thats >>too skwishy, to awkward? (I had to teach a semester of Pascal to some >>unfortunate students using DEC VT100 terminals, last year. Poor souls!) > I prefer the Northgate keyboard. The DEC VT52 keyboards (except for some key bounce) and VT100 keyboards have a good feel for me. I don't like the LK201, find it almost impossible to touch type on, have to pound the keys, and am afraid that using them will lead to problems like carpal tunnel syndrome. Does anyone know how to modify one of the Northgate keyboards to run on DEC equipment in place of the LK201? I have my own VT100 for use on DEC equipment, but with the advent of VT3xx X terminals, need just a substitute keyboard. --
Dan_Jacobson@ATT.COM (04/14/91)
Don't you just hate those (e.g., some PC) keyboards with the keyclick hardwired in with no way to turn it off.
dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk (Matthew Farwell) (04/15/91)
In article <DANJ1.91Apr14093107@cbnewse.ATT.COM> Dan_Jacobson@ihlpz.ATT.COM writes: >Don't you just hate those (e.g., some PC) keyboards with the keyclick >hardwired in with no way to turn it off. Don't you just hate *anything* which doesn't allow you to turn off a feature you don't want? Dylan. -- Matthew J Farwell: dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk || ...!uunet!ukc!ibmpcug!dylan If you've ever wondered how to get triangles from a cow, you need butter, milk and cheese and an equilateral chainsaw.
peter@ficc.ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) (04/16/91)
In article <3365@trlluna.trl.oz> soh@shiva.trl.oz (kam hung soh) writes: > Having said that, my favorite keyboards are (in no particular order): > SPARC, SUN 3, original IBM-PC Again proving my point that there is no way to get agreement on keyboards: those are among my least favorites. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' peter@ferranti.com +1 713 274 5180. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
stealth@engin.umich.edu (Mike Pelletier) (04/23/91)
In article <DANJ1.91Apr14093107@cbnewse.ATT.COM> Dan_Jacobson@ihlpz.ATT.COM writes: >Don't you just hate those (e.g., some PC) keyboards with the keyclick >hardwired in with no way to turn it off. My fiancee's Kaypro did that, once... We both finally got so SICK of it that I took apart the keyboard and ripped off the tiny little clicker unit. -- Mike Pelletier | "Wind & waves are breakdowns in the commitment of The University of Michigan | getting from here to there, but they are the con- College of Engineering | ditions for sailing. Not something to eliminate, Student/Systems Admin | but something to dance with."
birwin@ficc.ferranti.com (bob irwin) (04/24/91)
In article <1991Apr23.061233.11090@engin.umich.edu>, stealth@engin.umich.edu (Mike Pelletier) writes: > In article <DANJ1.91Apr14093107@cbnewse.ATT.COM> > Dan_Jacobson@ihlpz.ATT.COM writes: > >Don't you just hate those (e.g., some PC) keyboards with the keyclick > >hardwired in with no way to turn it off. > > My fiancee's Kaypro did that, once... We both finally got so SICK of it > that I took apart the keyboard and ripped off the tiny little clicker unit. > -- A little severe, since the kaypro keyclick beep is not hardwired. Writing an 8 out I/O port 5 will silence it. Use your favorite language or utility. Seem to recall that kaypros came with ASM, DDT, basic, S-basic. -- Bob Irwin <birwin@ficc.ferranti.com> Sugar Land, TX. (713) 274-5456 If life had a vomit meter, we'd be off the scale. - Joe Bob Briggs
svec5@menudo.uh.edu (T.C. Zhao) (04/24/91)
In article <1991Apr23.061233.11090@engin.umich.edu> stealth@engin.umich.edu (Mike Pelletier) writes: >My fiancee's Kaypro did that, once... We both finally got so SICK of it >that I took apart the keyboard and ripped off the tiny little clicker unit. What is wrong with DEC? they seem hate both UNIX and VI. Most of the terminals from DEC (vt2XX vt3XX vt4XX) have ESC/~` sharing the same key.
ken@hertz.njit.edu (ken ng cccc) (04/24/91)
In article <1991Apr24.031152.19175@menudo.uh.edu> svec5@menudo.uh.edu (T.C. Zhao) writes: :In article <1991Apr23.061233.11090@engin.umich.edu> stealth@engin.umich.edu (Mike Pelletier) writes: :>My fiancee's Kaypro did that, once... We both finally got so SICK of it :>that I took apart the keyboard and ripped off the tiny little clicker unit. :What is wrong with DEC? they seem hate both UNIX and VI. Most of :the terminals from DEC (vt2XX vt3XX vt4XX) have ESC/~` sharing the :same key. My main peeve against present day keyboards are the ones that have <enter> <backspace>, <del>, '\' and '|' within one key of each other. Its obvious that none of them use Unix! On PS/2 style keyboards I also believe that moving the function keys to a single row across the top is a big mistake. At least they had the brains to put spaces between every four keys, but its still hazardous to send a finger flying up there and hoping it hits the delete as opposed to the receive function key (well, that's a peeve with a certain software program, but I think you get the idea). At least no one is sending out the membrane or chicklet style keyboards anymore (on real pcs at least). Kenneth Ng "No problem, this is how you make it" -- R. Barclay, ST: TNG
chuck@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (charles bridgeland) (04/25/91)
ken@hertz.njit.edu (ken ng cccc) writes: >My main peeve against present day keyboards are the ones that have <enter> ><backspace>, <del>, '\' and '|' within one key of each other. Its obvious >that none of them use Unix! ------------------------- indeed. i don't know how many times i need to enter a path, go for the "\" and hit <return> instead and off arc or whatever goes, with nothing to play with. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- chuck bridgeland---anarchoRepublican "one thing about a police state, you can always find the police" l. neil smith chuck@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu hire me so I can quit this pit. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------