SECBH%CUNYVM.BITNET@oac.ucla.edu (10/29/90)
>rob@mtdiablo.Concord.CA.US (Rob Boldbear) quotes and comments >In article Re: JOHN testing +, and friends concern: >>In article <40699@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> Michael T Mucci) writes: >> (material on Kubler Ross's stages of denial/acceptance deleted) >> >>DENIAL >>ANGER >>DEPRESSION >>BARGAINING-OH PLEASE GOD.MAKE ME BETTER,, I >> SWEAR ILL GO TO CHURCH EVERYDAY >>ACCEPTANCE >I thought long ago this was shown to be wrong. >These aren't stages at all. >Sure when people experience a "loss", they go through periods when they >feel one or more of these five, but they aren't stages: > - they often don't occur in sequence > - a person might return to one of those feelings multiple times > - a person might not experience all give > - a person might experience more than one at a time > (and some other good observations deleted) I feel that Rob's comments are very important, both to those who are battling a serious illness and to those who are trying to help them. I admire the work of Kubler Ross, but it is unfortunate that in desperation many people have seen her stages as an immutable process which the ill _should_ replicate and a lot of well-intended mischief has come of that view. I have had chronic hepatitis B and C since 1979. My experience has been that anger, denial, depression and acceptance have (and are) parts of my "pattern" at various times, but that bargaining has not been a significant element. Where I am in the "stages" is very contingent upon my current level of well-being and has very little to do with overall progression of my illness. I began helping friends with AIDS in the early 80s and have been a volunteer Care Management Partner for PWAs since the mid-80s. The relationships I have formed with these people have often been much easier for me than other volunteers. I think this is mostly a result of my awareness of my own experience with a prolonged disabling illness. I have found, as have many persons with AIDS whom I have known, that over time the bouncing back and forth amongst these "stages" can be a bigger pain in the ass than the physical problems. The "pattern" of these "stages" seems to be radial rather serial. The problem becomes, then, dealing with constant emotional shifts more than with stages toned by a single emotion. I have found, as have some PWAs I have known, that Steven Levine's approach covers the same territory but in a more realistic way. Jack Carroll
The.Bird@f38.n135.z1.fidonet.org (The "Bird") (11/02/90)
>>In article <40699@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> Michael T Mucci) writes: >> (material on Kubler Ross's stages of denial/acceptance deleted) >> >>DENIAL >>ANGER >>DEPRESSION >>BARGAINING-OH PLEASE GOD.MAKE ME BETTER,, I >> SWEAR ILL GO TO CHURCH EVERYDAY >>ACCEPTANCE > Where I am in the "stages" is very contingent upon my current >level of well-being and has very little to do with overall >progression of my illness. >I have found, as have many persons with AIDS whom I have known, that >over time the bouncing back and forth amongst these "stages" can be >a bigger pain in the ass than the physical problems. >The "pattern" of these "stages" seems to be radial rather serial. >The problem becomes, then, dealing with constant emotional shifts >more than with stages toned by a single emotion. Jack Carroll, Having AIDS, I can confirm EVERYTHING you said. The solution I have found *FOR ME* is both spiritual (not religous) and medical. I am fortunate enough to have great medical and psychiatric care. The mood swings were a bitch untill we tried Prozac and Xanax (which helped with some of prozac's side effects). I no longer go into those deep depresions when I don't also feel physically well. I know only about 60% of people trying Prozac are able to use it but there must be other similar drugs one could try. Another thing that has helped me get through the suicide thinking stage is that, although I am very much alone, I have two wonderful 12 year old Labrador Retrievers who depend on ME. When I go they will surely be "put down" because of their age. There is no way in hell I am going to speed up my "friends" demise by feeling sorry for myself. It's pulled me through some rough emotional times. Another trick I have found is to get in my car with the windows rolled up (so no one can hear) and cuss, swear and use all the vile words you can think of at all of those anonymous drivers in other cars. I may look crazy as a loon when I do that, but it sure helps get rid of the pent up anger inside and it doesn't "hurt" anyone else. I dug into my savings and set up a salt water marine aquarium last april (it has been something I always wanted to do) and it gives me endless hours of pleasure. I treat myself to "presents" whenever I really can afford something and my parents sent me one of those expensive plush thick robes that I never would have indulged in myself but always wanted. My trip, and many Pwa's, has been overcomming the guilt feelings of not accomplishing something "important" today and getting over the societal imposed guilt trip that I may not be as valuable as someone else to society. As soon as I overcame those feelings (and it has taken a long time) I found I could handle most anything...with a little bitchin now and then <grin>. I have gone through everything in that list of phases except the bargaining. Denial for me was impossible. Kind of hard to deny AIDS when you are in a hospital close to death with PCP. But my form was, "Maybe I'll be one of the lucky ones." And everytime I get a new infection, or feel too weak to get up, I say to myself, "Pass the Prozac Mary." <grin> And I get through it quite well now. BUT EACH OF US MUST FIND AN APPROACH THAT WORKS FOR US INDIVIDUALLY. God in his ultimate wisdom made each of us unique critters. As long as I can get to the bathroom on my own and don't have constant nausea or pain, I consider it to be another goddamned beautiful day....... "Bird" -- Uucp: ...{gatech,ames,rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!135!38!The."Bird" Internet: The."Bird"@f38.n135.z1.fidonet.org