Rob.Carr@f53.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Rob Carr) (01/08/91)
This month's Discover has an article in it confirming the incident in the
'50s. I'm surprised to see that it says that HIV is only a 150 years old,
but maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe it's wishful thinking. If HIV is a couple
thousand to a couple hundred thousand years old, that means that some humans
have learned to live with it and may give us a clue as how to slow it down.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that, if the Pentagon actually wanted
money to design a virus like HIV, they're wasting their time. We don't have
the technology. We don't have the insight. We wouldn't even know where
to start.
Now it is possible that the military found a naturally occuring virus (HIV)
and spread it. But in a disease that has an incubation period of up to 10
years without seroconversion and takes so long to kill, I doubt that the
military has the patience or the brains to figure it out. Picture it:
Inject someone with a virus. And nothing happens. And nothing happens.
For (let's be conservative) 3 years, nothing happens. Or even worse, you
give the patient (sic) (sick?) the virus, he comes down with a mild cold
(fever, etc) and gets better.
Never happen. No "head in the sand." Just "It doesn't make sense."
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Internet: Rob.Carr@f53.n129.z1.fidonet.orgwinters@pdn.paradyne.com (John Winters) (01/10/91)
In 1970, money was asked for for the purpose of designing the AIDS virus. Perhaps it was only "discovered". However, I have the document to back this up.
HAMER@Ruby.VCU.EDU (Robert M. Hamer) (01/10/91)
winters@pdn.paradyne.com (John Winters) wrote: >In 1970, money was asked for for the purpose of designing the AIDS virus. >Perhaps it was only "discovered". However, I have the document to back this up. I can't resist. I'd love to see a copy. I'll be happy to pay for the xerox costs. I'll scan it in and post it here. How about it?
3KSNFZM@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A. Lisowski) (01/10/91)
About 2 months ago, I asked for information about Dr. Francis Cress
Welsing, who was going to speak at the University of Illinois about
"Global White Supremacy and AIDS." I want to thank all of you who responded.
During her 2 hour talk, she only mentioned HIV once for a few minutes then said
something about KEMRON during Q and A. She claimed that HIV has been around
since 1968 and cited a book, "A Survey of Chemical and Biological Warfare," by
John Cookson and Judith Nottingham and published by Monthly Review Press, in
1970. Two relevent quotes from the book are:
"Just recently a great deal of useful work has been done on the Vervet
Monkey Disease which caused seven deaths in Germany. Reports of progress were:
sent to 40 Laboratories all over the world; ...A non infective complement
fixing antigen has been prepared for distribution to the WHO reference labora-
tories." (pages 110-111)
"Vervet monkey disease may well be an example of a whole new class of
disease-causing organisms. Handling of blood and tissues without precautions
causes infection. It is unaffected by any antibiotic substance so far tried
and is unrelated to any other organism. It causes fatality in some cases and
can be venerally transmitted in man. In words of Dr. C.E. Gordon Smith, 'It
has possible potential as an infectious disease of man.' It presumably
is also of BW interest." (pages 322-323)
A major flaw in Dr. Cress Welsing's analysis is that Vervet (green) monkey
disease is NOT caused by a retrovirus. I checked with a veterinary pathobi-
ologist at the time as to what causes this disease (I think he said it was
like brucellosis, but I am not certain). She assumed AIDS came from green
monkeys (according to one theory) and that this is the same as Vervet monkey
disease. This is not true. Very few people at her talk that night are
aware of this, unfortunately.
This may be the same reference that someone referred to in one of the "HIV
as genetic weapon" postings.
Ed Lisowskilrackl@cadesm11.eng.utah.edu (Les Rackl) (01/14/91)
I want to see the document which John Winters has, too. It should be very interesting. . . . Please send: lrackl@rolls.utah.edu Thanks!
Rob.Carr@f53.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Rob Carr) (01/14/91)
JW> From: winters@pdn.paradyne.com (John Winters)
JW> In 1970, money was asked for for the purpose of designing the
JW> AIDS virus. Perhaps it was only "discovered". However, I have
JW> the document to back this up.
I would like to see this documentation. Can you tell me how you looked it
up and how I can get a copy?
I've seen plenty of false documentation for all sorts of bizarre stuff. I'll
believe it when I look it up myself.
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Internet: Rob.Carr@f53.n129.z1.fidonet.orgrpetsche@mrg.PHYS.CWRU.Edu (rolfe g petschek) (01/15/91)
In article <1991Jan8.215147.19926@cs.ucla.edu> Rob.Carr@f53.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Rob Carr) writes: >This month's Discover has an article in it confirming the incident in the >'50s. I'm surprised to see that it says that HIV is only a 150 years old, >but maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe it's wishful thinking. If HIV is a couple >thousand to a couple hundred thousand years old, that means that some humans >have learned to live with it and may give us a clue as how to slow it down. Well, this does not follow so clearly. It seems to me (and biologists of my acquaintance) possible that HIV is rather old but that the pre-antibiotic spread of HIV was limited by the fact that when there was an HIV epidemic in the past there were also epidemics of other diseases (and particularly other STDs) due to the lowered immune response. Many people died due to these other, oppurtunistic diseases - especially those with HIV. Eventually more people with HIV died from these other diseases than contracted HIV and the HIV epidemic stopped. Our society is already aware of this 'solution' to HIV but does not find it terribly useful - depriving sick people of antibotics so that they die is deemed (in my view correctly) unethical, even if it would 'work'. It is possibly worthy of remark that early doubling times for HIV (1/2 - 1) years would, since 1959, have resulted in (assuming 1 year doubling) some billion cases. As there are not even close to that many a 150 year or even (proven) 30 year existence of the virus does imply that there are circumstances in which the doubling time is much smaller. -- Rolfe G. Petschek Petschek@cwru.bitnet Associate Professor of Physics rgp@po.cwru.edu Case Western Reserve University (216)368-4035 Cleveland Oh 44106-2623