djones@megatest.UUCP (Dave Jones) (06/06/89)
From article <3444@ae.sei.cmu.edu>, by rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito): > In article <CLINE.89May24173256@sunshine.ece.clarkson.edu> Marshall Cline > writes: > >>In article <5004@goofy.megatest.UUCP> Dave Jones writes: >>>From article <3359@ae.sei.cmu.edu>, by Richard S D'Ippolito: ... >>>>I find it difficult to believe that one can acquire enough knowledge of a >>>>technical field without the benefit of a formal period of study of the >>>>field, such as you suggest, though I suppose it has been done by those rare >>>>folks that you and I cannot hope to emulate. >> >>>Gimme a break. College is not magic and professors are not magicians. >> >>AGREE! The idea that coursework is _necessary_ for learning is LUDICROUS! >>Coursework isn't even _sufficient_ for learning! > ... > Why is only college instruction considered formal training? What about > previous schooling and apprenticeships? I will stand by my original > statement, even in the isolation that it's presented above. > Why do have to "stand by your original statement"? You only said you "find it hard to believe.. ." You didn't say you found it impossible. I'm sure you are up to the challenge! I guess it will come down to, what is "formal"? But if we want to get into a hair-splitting match, I could point out that you, in the same sentence in which you find it hard to believe, also "suppose it has been done." Hmm. Well, you're quite right, in the second part of the sentence: I did it. Whether or not one can "hope to emulate" is between one and one's hoper. My own computer education was obtained by me alone, in the library and at the computer, while I pursued (and eventually caught) a "formal" course in mathematics. Then there came the first job, at a big chip-foundary. (No "apprenticeship". They threw me in head first.) Maybe it's vanity, but I think that I "learned computers real good." Lot's of people seem to concur. (Could it be they're just buttering me up?)
mbb@cbnewsh.ATT.COM (martin.b.brilliant) (06/08/89)
From article <5530@goofy.megatest.UUCP>, by djones@megatest.UUCP (Dave Jones): > From article <3444@ae.sei.cmu.edu>, by rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito): >> In article <CLINE.89May24173256@sunshine.ece.clarkson.edu> Marshall Cline >> writes: >> >>>In article <5004@goofy.megatest.UUCP> Dave Jones writes: >>>>From article <3359@ae.sei.cmu.edu>, by Richard S D'Ippolito: > ... >>>>>I find it difficult to believe that one can acquire enough knowledge of a >>>>>technical field without the benefit of a formal period of study .... OK, this is as deep as we get, we're coming out now ..... >>>>Gimme a break. College is not magic and professors are not magicians. >>> >>>AGREE! The idea that coursework is _necessary_ for learning is LUDICROUS! >>>Coursework isn't even _sufficient_ for learning! >> > ... >> Why is only college instruction considered formal training? What about >> previous schooling and apprenticeships? .... > .... > My own computer education was obtained by me alone, in the library and at > the computer, while I pursued (and eventually caught) a "formal" course > in mathematics. Then there came the first job, at a big chip-foundary. > (No "apprenticeship". They threw me in head first.) .... > I think that I "learned computers real good." ..... Maybe an old-timer can offer some perspective here. I got a lot of formal training in electrical engineering, and worked in a lot of different places. Long ago I came to the conclusion that, while theoretical knowledge is indispensable, it will not make an engineer out of you. Experience is also indispensable. I also concluded, on the basis of experience, that formal training is often the easiest way to obtain the aforesaid theoretical knowledge, but it is not the only way. Sometimes, given the need to do a job, you can get the theoretical knowledge most efficiently just by looking for what you need. The argument reproduced above seems a lot like the old "heredity vs. environment" argument. Both are so important that neither can do anything without the other. When two (or more) statements are both true, neither is truer than the other(s). M. B. Brilliant Marty AT&T-BL HO 3D-520 (201) 949-1858 Holmdel, NJ 07733 att!hounx!marty1 or marty1@hounx.ATT.COM Disclaimer: Opinions stated herein are mine unless and until my employer explicitly claims them; then I lose all rights to them.