dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) (02/15/84)
On February 1, I posted a proposal for the creation of net.religion.jewish
on behalf of myself and 13 others. We set February 15 as the date for
replies to be received, after which the group would be created if there
was enough demand.
Many responses have been posted to the net, and I have received quite
a bit of private mail. My conclusion is that the group should be
created. First, the totals; then, some replies to arguments which have
been raised.
Initial posting group:
utcsrgv!dave Dave Sherman
pyuxdd!rib Robert Block
pegasus!naiman Ephrayim Naiman
pegasus!avi Avi Gross
masscomp!trb Andy Tannenbaum
utcsstat!rao Eli Posner
utcsrgv!avi Avi Naiman
zeppo!mmc Mark Chodrow
lzpfc!klein Nemi Klein
lzmi!adam Adam Reed
alice!adw Aaron Wyner
umcp-cs!koved Larry Koved
hou5e!elb Ellen Bart
mhuxl!spiegel Murray Spiegel
Yes votes posted to the net:
linus!jgb Jonathan Bressel
ittral!pellegri Dan Pellegrino
yale-comix!scott Walter Scott
mhuxi!dsg David Green
fortune!mbr Mark Rosenthal
aecom!yudelson
cca!barb Barbara Blaustein
ihuxq!amigo2 John Hobson
nsc!chuqui Chuq Von Rospach
aecom!alex Alex Fuss
rdin!abs Andrew Siegel
orca!ariels Ariel Shattan
cbscc!pmd Paul Dubuc
Yes votes received by me:
linus!mat
axiom!smk
pyuxu!shg
bbncca!keesan
hou5g!aaa
utzoo!laura
watrose!gngladstone
cbdkc1!ask
tekcad!ellis
ihuxj!sitzmann
acf1!cxb2273
acf1!axm9839
aecom!yechiel
aecom!naftoli
heurikon!jeff
whuxle!elia
hocoer!db
No votes received by me:
utcsstat!lise (losing Jewish viewpoint from net.religion)
No or qualified votes posted to the net:
pur-ee!Pucc-J:ab3 (should be mailing list)
pyuxn!rlr (no need -- use net.religion)
unc!bch (supports, but suggests net.culture.jewish)
sjuvax!bbanerje (concerned about newsgroup propagation)
rocksvax!z ("another empty directory on my backup tapes")
proper!gam (concerned about future fragmentation and
"look-down-your-nose attitude")
inmet!nrh (stay as mailing-list and demonstrate
traffic in existing newsgroups)
ihuxq!ken (too easy for "them" to find "us";
closed-minded goyim should see the headers)
sbcs!debray (no need to fragment the flames)
I have omitted referring to a few articles which made valid points, but
did not come down on one side or the other. I hope I have addressed all
the points below.
So we seem to have 43 votes in favour. Now let me turn to the
specific arguments raised against the newsgroup.
First let me say that I disagree with those who accuse people who
argue against the group of antisemitism. Darth Wombat (Pucc-J:ab3)
says he received two letters accusing him in this way. I think
the people who have raised arguments against net.religion.jewish
have done so in good faith for the reasons they have stated, and
little is accomplished by making accusations.
-----------
Morris Keesan (bbncca!keesan) and others suggested net.religion.judaism
intead of .jewish. This is a trivial matter, but I prefer .jewish for
two reasons: it's easier to type, and it's less likely to be misspelled.
-----------
Lise Manchester (utcsstat!lise) expressed disappointment at the
prospect of the Jews on the net leaving net.religion, where she
enjoys our contributions. Rest assured, Lise, people like Andy
Tannenbaum, Avi Gross and myself will continue to participate in
net.religion. Discussion of Judaism in the context of comparison
with other faiths will still belong in net.religion.
-----------
Darth Wombat (Pucc-J:ab3) thinks we should use a mailing list.
A mailing list of even 35 people is extremely difficult to maintain
across the uucp network. Each user must have a list based on paths
relative to his/her own site; new users must be added to everyone's
list; mailers break down as the number of recipients increase;
uucp can overflow when given 40+ copies of a file for simultaneous
mailing. Furthermore, we are talking about many more than 35 users, in
the future. And consider how many different people contribute to
many special-interest newsgroups - it's very low.
Note that we are dealing with uucp, not the ARPAnet, and the
facilities for mailing lists are relatively primitive.
It should also be easy for new users on any system to join our
discussions. And I feel we have nothing to hide - our discussions
can (and should) be public.
-----------
Byron Howes (unc!bch) supports the group, but suggests net.culture.
We addressed this in the original posting. Judaism is first
and foremost a *religion*. Some people think of it only as a culture,
but it is the religion which has kept the Jewish people what they
are for thousands of years. Many (most) of the discussion topics
in the newsgroup will relate specifically to the religion rather
than the "culture". Judaism, for many of us, is not "roots" or
"culture". It is a present-day way of life based on a religion.
In fact, Jews from totally different cultures (e.g., Yemenite
vs. Eastern European) are linked by their religious observances.
-----------
Rich Rosen (pyuxn!rlr) and others are concerned about the propagation
of multiple newsgroups and suggest that we conduct our discussions in
net.religion. It is argued that we should demonstrate the need for
the group with a sufficient number of articles in net.religion.
As we pointed out in the proposal, net.religion is not perceived
as an appropriate place for the topics which some of us would like
to discuss. In the first place, many people who intend to read the
newsgroup have neither the time nor the interest for the normal
net.religion fare. It's fine to say "press the 'n' key", but the
volume of articles in net.religion is horrendous. (Since Oct. 18,
utcsrgv has received 799 articles, or an average of 6.82 per day.)
Secondly, the stated and actual purpose of net.religion is different
from that of the proposed net.religion.jewish. I quote from Adam
Buchsbaum (alice!alb)'s official List of Active Newsgroups:
"net.religion: Religious, ethical, and moral implications of actions"
Discussions about the practicalities of Jewish observance don't really
fit into this mold.
Furthermore, it should be noted than discussions about Judaism *have*
appeared in many newsgroups, including net.religion. This point was
made in the original proposal.
-----------
Gordon Moffett (proper!gam) refers to a "look-down-your-nose attitude".
I see no reason why net.religion.jewish should cause any such thing.
We do not suggest that Judaism is better than any other religion; it
is, however, *our* religion, and it affects those of us who follow it
in many ways every day. For that matter, I don't think net.motss
or net.women.only inspire such attitudes either.
-----------
Saumya Debray (sbcs!debray) refers to "spreading the flames" across
more newsgroups. That argument underlines my point. Net.religion is
*full* of flames. Net.religion.jewish, I hope, will have very few.
Active discussion will be welcome, but I also hope that it can
be used as a medium of exchange of useful ideas, experiences and
information.
-----------
Ken Perlow (ihuxq!ken) argues against the newsgroup on the grounds
that it will make it easier for "them" to find "us" when the time
comes. I appreciate the concern. I personally am proud of my
Jewishness and have no concern about anyone finding me. If anyone
who wants to contribute to the group is concerned about revealing
themselves or there whereabouts for any reason, I will be happy to
forward messages to the net, as is done in net.motss. And frankly,
I'm sure that if "they" ever want to get lists of Jews, "they" will
do much better with organizational mailing lists than they will
with electronic addresses of Usenet posters.
-----------
Ken Perlow also argues:
-For those readers of this who dismiss the above as paranoia, I argue
-that the diversity now found in net.religion is both healthy and
-entertaining. Open-minded goyim will probably subscribe to a Jewish
-subgroup. It's the closed-minded ones I worry about (see paragraph 1).
-They should at least see the headers. Remember, it is rumor about
-the things that Jews do among themselves that perpetuates blood libel.
This is a valid point, but I think it can be addressed by the
continued participation of Jews in net.religion. And I would hope
that the "closed-minded ones" will at least peek into net.religion.jewish
once in a while to see what goes on.
-----------
Enough already. In my view, there is enough interest in the group to
warrant its creation, and the arguments contra are not sufficiently
strong. I am asking Avi Gross to create the newsgroup within the
next few days.
Dave Sherman
Toronto
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{allegra,cornell,decvax,ihnp4,linus,utzoo}!utcsrgv!dave