bertrand@eiffel.UUCP (Bertrand Meyer) (08/31/90)
(See also note at end
on TOOLS PACIFIC 90,
Nov. 28-30).
TOOLS '91
Technology of Object-Oriented
Languages and Systems
INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE AND EXHIBITION
CNIT Paris (La Defense), March 4-8, 1991
FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT AND CALL FOR PAPERS
TOOLS '91 will continue the tradition of excellence and
practicality established by TOOLS '89 and '90. TOOLS '91 will include
tutorials, workshops, invited presentations, submitted papers, and an
exhibition of industrial and research object-oriented tools.
The program chairman is Jean Bezivin; the conference chairman is
Bertrand Meyer.
The conference format will include:
+ Tutorials (on March 4-5) addressing major topics in the field
of object-oriented methods, languages, tools and applications.
+ Invited presentations by international object-oriented
experts.
+ Submitted papers on important practical aspects of object-
oriented techniques.
+ Demonstrations of object-oriented tools, languages,
environments, databases and their applications.
The conference will once again be held in the exciting new CNIT
center in Paris (La Defense), a business and conference center
devoted entirely to technologies of the future.
SUBMITTING A PAPER
TOOLS '91 is now soliciting papers on all aspects of object-
oriented technology. All submitted papers should have a strong
practical bent and emphasize applications. A non-exhaustive list of
suggested topics includes:
+ Reports of actual experiences with object-oriented tools and
methods.
+ New developments in the technology.
+ Development and use of reusable component libraries.
+ Management and educational issues.
A document entitled "Guidelines for prospective TOOLS authors" is
available from the conference organizers. If you intend to submit a
paper, please return the coupon on the back of this announcement
after checking the appropriate box. You will receive the Guidelines,
which will help you maximize your chances of getting the paper
accepted.
Submissions may be made in the form of either full papers (8 to
15 single-spaced pages) or extended abstracts (5 or more pages
including basic bibliography). Submissions will be evaluated by the
International Program Committee, chaired by Professor Jean Be'zivin
of the University of Nantes. Six copies of each submission should be
sent to:
TOOLS '91
Attn: Jean Be'zivin
Laboratoire d'Informatique, Faculte' des Sciences et Techniques
Universite' de Nantes
2, rue de la Hoursinie`re 44072 Nantes Cedex (France)
Electronic mail: uunet!geocub.greco-prog.fr!bezivin (from the US)
geocub.greco-prog.fr!bezivin (from Europe)
IMPORTANT DATES
All submissions must be received by November 1, 1990 to be
considered for inclusion in the conference. Submissions should be in
English. Notification of acceptance will be mailed by December 1;
final manuscripts will be due January 15.
THE INTERNATIONAL OBJECT-ORIENTED WEEK
One of the most exciting parts of TOOLS '90 was the
International Object-Oriented Programming Week, a set of meetings on
topics related to the theme of TOOLS. Friday, March 8 has been set
aside for independently organized events, such as User Group meetings
or standardization committees.
The TOOLS '91 organizers will help coordinate and publicize such
events if they fall within the scope of object-oriented techniques,
and will include the announcements in the final TOOLS program. If
you are interested in setting up such a meeting, please contact the
TOOLS organizers for details.
FURTHER INFORMATION
For further information please return the coupon below to:
TOOLS '91
SOL, 14 rue Jean Rey 75015 Paris (France)
Telephone +33 - 1 40 56 03 58, Fax +33 - 1 40 56 05 81
[Note added to the Usenet version of this text: the coupon below
is extracted from the paper version. If you prefer to send an electronic
form of the to me at bertrand@eiffel.com, I will forward it - B.M.]
_____________________________________________________________________
Please send me further announcements about TOOLS '91
Name, address, telephone, fax, E-mail:
Please check the appropriate boxes:
I attended TOOLS '89 / / TOOLS '90 / /
/ / I intend to submit a paper. Please send me the Guidelines for
Prospective TOOLS authors.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: TOOLS PACIFIC '90
A special edition of the TOOLS conference will be held in Sydney
on November 28-30, 1990. The program co-chairs are Jean Bezivin,
Mario Tokoro and John Potter. For any information contact the
organizers at the address above.
-- Bertrand Meyer
bertrand@eiffel.comsean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (09/01/90)
bertrand@eiffel.UUCP (Bertrand Meyer) writes: | FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT AND CALL FOR PAPERS Are any of these papers going to be made available freely? Or do we have to go and buy them? Is this an advertisement? Sean (Who is tired of seeing "Call for Papers" posted to 100,000 systems, and then seeing the "papers" in the bookstore bound for the low low price of $50-$150.) -- *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet, ukma!sean *** rec.pyrotechnics: "Blow up or shut up."
render@cs.uiuc.edu (Hal Render) (09/03/90)
In article <sean.652197180@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >bertrand@eiffel.UUCP (Bertrand Meyer) writes: > >| FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT AND CALL FOR PAPERS > >Are any of these papers going to be made available freely? Or do we have to >go and buy them? Is this an advertisement? I don't understand what you are complaining about. A call for papers is just an announcement that some group wants papers to include in some forum or journal. There's no implication that the papers will be freely available. If you want to restrict announcements of conferences to those that don't charge for a copy of the proceedings, then you are basically saying that you don't want conference announcements here. I myself have no problem with conference announcments being in both news.announce.conferences and whatever comp.* group has the closest relationship to the subject. Part of this is because I hope to publish in some of these places, and part of it is because I like to know what's going on. My alternative would be to pay for a journal that had these conference announcements in them. If, however, you are saying that you object to the high price of proceedings, then I agree with you. I was principal author on a paper published in a proceedings as a grad student, and they still wanted me to pay $40 for a copy of the proceedings. That may not mean much to the average working CS person, but to a grad student, that's a sizeable chunk of a month's pay. I was reluctant to make my grant pay for it, and consequently I still don't have a copy of the proceedings. hal.
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (09/03/90)
render@cs.uiuc.edu (Hal Render) writes: |If, however, you are saying that you object to the high price of proceedings, That's pretty much what I object to. They use our resources to make a worldwide call for papers, and then sell the bound journals at outrageous prices that students can't afford. I saw a collection of Siggraph papers for $136!!! So whenever I see a "Call for Papers" I'm going to keep pointing this out until either people start saying "Hey! This *is* a ripoff!" or I determine that I simply can't make any changes. Educational materials, especially those gathered using the aid of this network, should not be priced outrageously. Ideally, they would be done in a non-profit fashion for the cost of printing, binding, and labor, but that would be too much to hope for. Sean -- *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet, ukma!sean *** rec.pyrotechnics: "Blow up or shut up."
giacomet@venus.ecn.purdue.edu (Frederic B Giacometti) (09/03/90)
In article <sean.652307854@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >render@cs.uiuc.edu (Hal Render) writes: > >|If, however, you are saying that you object to the high price of proceedings, > >That's pretty much what I object to. They use our resources to make a worldwide >call for papers, and then sell the bound journals at outrageous prices that >students can't afford. I saw a collection of Siggraph papers for $136!!! And can't your library afford it ? Don't be ridiculous, please. Wouldn't you rather have something to say about the 50 - 80 $ textbooks you are requested to buy, your "expensive" tuitions, the overpriced registration fees, and whatever expenses ... Please, if you're a grad. student, ask your library to get them for you and stop whinning in this newsgroup. Anyway, which grad student would ever buy a Siggraph paper, even if it was priced $10 ? Frederic Giacometti
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (09/03/90)
giacomet@venus.ecn.purdue.edu (Frederic B Giacometti) writes: |And can't your library afford it ? Don't be ridiculous, please. Wouldn't |you rather have something to say about the 50 - 80 $ textbooks you are |requested to buy, your "expensive" tuitions, the overpriced registration |fees, and whatever expenses ... Please, if you're a grad. student, ask |your library to get them for you and stop whinning in this newsgroup. |Anyway, which grad student would ever buy a Siggraph paper, even if it was |priced $10 ? What a pathetic view of students, and what an optimistic view of libraries. Why don't students just check out their textbooks from the library? Ever wonder, hmmmm? I guess I shouldn't own a copy of "The C Programming Language" or the LaTeX reference manual. Hey! I shouldn't own any books at all. I'll just check them out of the library. No one is being ridiculous here. These conferences are using our resources to get papers, and then selling those papers at ridiculous prices. One author here said he couldn't afford to buy his own paper! Protesting isn't whining. It's trying to get something done. Sean -- *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet, ukma!sean *** rec.pyrotechnics: "Blow up or shut up."
render@cs.uiuc.edu (Hal Render) (09/04/90)
In article <1990Sep2.230249.7858@ecn.purdue.edu> giacomet@venus.ecn.purdue.edu (Frederic B Giacometti) writes: >In article <sean.652307854@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >> ... They use our resources to make a worldwide >>call for papers, and then sell the bound journals at outrageous prices that >>students can't afford. I saw a collection of Siggraph papers for $136!!! > >And can't your library afford it? Don't be ridiculous, please. Wouldn't >you rather have something to say about the 50 - 80 $ textbooks you are >requested to buy, your "expensive" tuitions, the overpriced registration >fees, and whatever expenses ... Truth be told, my old department's library (U. of Illinois) *couldn't* afford to buy a proceedings I wanted because they had already spent their allotted money halfway through the year. Given what people elsewhere have told me, this is not an uncommon occurrence. Libraries are given only a finite amount of money, and given the size of the average user community, it is unrealistic to expect them to be able to afford to buy everything that someone wants. Thus, the student is often left to buy the things for himself. Now it is true that books, tuition, and registration are expensive, but at least those expenses can usually be justified by the cost of providing the goods or service. It is harder to understand why a paper-bound, 300-page proceedings printed on cheap stock and for which the authors had to do all of the formatting costs $80. That's what the proceedings with my paper in it costs, and that's the reason I don't have my own copy. >Anyway, which grad student would ever buy a Siggraph paper, even if it was >priced $10 ? Nobody in their right mind would pay $10 for a single paper, but I know a lot of grad students who would pay $10 for a proceedings. Hell, I know several who pay the list price. hal.
bs@alice.UUCP (Bjarne Stroustrup) (09/04/90)
It might be worth noting that different conferences have very different aims and are sponsored by very different organizations. Conferences sponsored by non-profit organizations such as ACM, IEEE, USENIX can usually be trusted to be run for the benefits of their members. They have acceptance criteria, fee structure, proceedings distribution, etc. that reflect that. Other organizations have aims that are not as clear cut. For example, conferences run by publishing houses, such as "Software Development" (Miller Friedman Publications) and "C++ at Work" (SIGS publications and the Wang institute of Boston University), seem to have the double goal of making a profit and make the publishing house's journals (e.g. Computer Language Magazine and The Journal of Object-Oriented Programming) more pupular to readers, authors, and advertisers alike. Other conferences, such as "DEC World," clearly exist for the benefit of their owner; the - often considerable - benefits to the participants are secondary. There are room for a lot of different kinds of conferences, but IMHO conferences should make it very clear who puts up the initial cash and who takes the profits (if any). Only then can speakers know on which basis their papers are accepted and only then can participants have a chance to know what they are letting themselves in for.
macrakis@osf.fr (Stavros Macrakis) (09/04/90)
This is ridiculous. 1) Most Calls for Papers are published by non-profit organizations which try to make a good deal with their printers or publishers (depending on how they organize things); part of the proceedings cost probably goes towards the conference expenses. Siggraph proceedings (in particular) are expensive because they have a small press run, they are well produced (good paper, high resolution, etc.), and include many photographs, of which many in color. 2) I don't have any specifics about the Tools conference. Do you have any reason to believe that its proceedings will be particularly expensive? 3) Libraries should indeed systematically collect works of general value, such as major conference proceedings (assuming of course that your institution does related work). If your library does not have the budget for this, you should complain. This is a very legitimate complaint. You will probably be supported in your complaint by your professors. 4) Libraries do not buy textbooks for several reasons: 1) it is presumed more effective to have each student have his/her own copy 2) new editions come out often 3) they don't have the budget 4) students are presumed to want to keep their textbooks as references 5) textbooks (like skin magazines) are often stolen. 5) The exchange of information on conferences, proceedings, books, etc. is an important function of the net. Let's enhance this function, not stifle it!
michael@dduck.ctt.bellcore.com (Michael Muller) (09/04/90)
yeow. Hey, folks, let's do the rest of this debate by email, okay?
Thanks, Michael
--
Michael Muller Bellcore 444 Hoes Lane Piscataway, N.J. 08854 US
..!bellcore!ctt!michael (201) 699 4892
michael@bellcore.com
Michael Muller Bellcore 444 Hoes Lane Piscataway, N.J. 08854 US
..!bellcore!ctt!michael (201) 699 4892
michael@bellcore.comwarren@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Warren Harrison) (09/05/90)
In article <sean.652307854@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: > ... some stuff objecting to call for papers being posted ... >They use our resources to make a worldwide >call for papers, and then sell the bound journals at outrageous prices that >students can't afford. I saw a collection of Siggraph papers for $136!!! why are these just *your* resources? Almost all of the call for papers you're referring to are posted by volunteer organizers of the conferences - no one involved with organizing *any* ACM/IEEE (nor most others) conference gets a penny out of the deal (except for the headquarters staff whose involvement is minimal). I've not done anything with SIGGRAPH, but I have served as Treasurer/Registrar for the SIGPLAN annual conference and I helped out with an ACM CSC or two in my grad student days. I can honestly tell you no one is getting rich off the proceeds. In every case, the net is the organizer's resource too. The people who respond to the call for papers also can claim the net as their resource - most of them don't complain. Further, the net is not the sole distribution medium for the call for papers, most people also send out flyers, list their event in ACM CACM (for free) and IEEE Computer (for free) and many other magazines (for free). Also, extra proceedings, etc. which *are* sold after the conference are used as additional revenue to help front the following year's conference. A small conference (~400 people) will cost upwards of $200,000 to put on once the hotel space, lunches, etc. are paid for. I understand SIGGRAPH is *huge* - I can only guess at their costs. Most pro forma budgets include a line item for extra copies of proceedings which will be sold afterwords. This additional revenue source also allows us to keep registration fees relatively low (compare fees for an ACM conference with one of the true profit motivated conferences such as the CASE expo DCI puts on - registration will be $200- $300 at an ACM event, $1,000 or more at the profit making conference) In addition, the "profits" generated by a conference sponsored by an ACM SIG or an IEEE TC will help fund that organization too. This allows the special interest group to fund smaller conferences which would otherwise not break even. I hope you can understand that just like the publishers of your textbooks the proceedings which are sold after the fact have to cover more than just their printing costs. There are alternatives to buying a proceedings - if you're a student. If it is for educational use, you can make photocopies from the library copies or a copy borrowed from a faculty member. Likewise, when a conference is within reasonable driving distance, contact the registrar a month or so before it starts. There are typically *significant* student discounts for registration (often as much as a 75% discount - this is also funded by those extra copies of proceedings) which will include a proceedings. Also most registrars *love* to have volunteers to help with registration - getting 400 people signed up in one morning isn't fun by yourself! Students can almost *always* get free registration this way. Many times a local school will have low cost student rooms you can rent too, in order to avoid paying for a hotel room if it's not within commuting distance. > >So whenever I see a "Call for Papers" I'm going to keep pointing this out >until either people start saying "Hey! This *is* a ripoff!" or I determine >that I simply can't make any changes. This isn't a ripoff. However, it *is* a good question. I hope I was able to explain why the cost of conference proceedings are so seemingly high. > >Educational materials, especially those gathered using the aid of this >network, should not be priced outrageously. Ideally, they would be done in >a non-profit fashion for the cost of printing, binding, and labor, but that >would be too much to hope for. As I pointed out, the cost of producing the materials *has* to include the cost of organizing the conference (the purpose of the conference by the way is *not* to produce proceedings like a magazine or book, but to hold an event and provide attendees with a record of what went on - whatever extras are left are sold, but there is no intention to stock any book stores). > >Sean >-- >*** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet, ukma!sean >*** rec.pyrotechnics: "Blow up or shut up." Warren ========================================================================== Warren Harrison warren@cs.pdx.edu Department of Computer Science 503/725-3108 Portland State University