ath@helios.prosys.se (Anders Thulin) (07/19/89)
I have been looking for real types for PostScript printers, but not
found any. I'd appreciate any pointers or ideas you may have.
I need:
1) Real small capitals. Standard caps in a smaller size won't do.
2) Old style digits. (2 should be as high as an s, 3 and 5 should
be as deep as j).
I would like to have:
3) Old-fashioned sorts. Like 'ct' and 'st' ligatures, old-fashioned 's'.
A Caslon (or perhaps Bembo or Jenson) with all this would be perfect,
although I would like to hear of anything with small caps and old
style digits.
Do you know of any typeface that may fit this description?
--
Anders Thulin, Programsystem AB, Teknikringen 2A, S-583 30 Linkoping, Sweden
ath@prosys.se {uunet,mcvax}!sunic!prosys!athgreid@adobe.com (Glenn Reid) (07/21/89)
In article <440@helios.prosys.se> ath@helios.prosys.se (Anders Thulin) writes: >I have been looking for real types for PostScript printers, but not >found any. I'd appreciate any pointers or ideas you may have. > >I need: > >1) Real small capitals. Standard caps in a smaller size won't do. > >2) Old style digits. (2 should be as high as an s, 3 and 5 should > be as deep as j). > >I would like to have: > >3) Old-fashioned sorts. Like 'ct' and 'st' ligatures, old-fashioned 's'. I think the new "Adobe Originals" collection will help. In particular, the new Adobe Garamond font and Utopia, both designed at Adobe, contain: * ff fi fl ffi ffl ligatures * small capitals * old style digits * alternates (swash capitals, ornaments, alternative letters) * superior letters: a,b,d,e,i,l,m,n,o,r,s,t * titling capitals (for use at larger point sizes, as in display) * miscellaneous: symbols, punctuation, dot leaders, etc. Call 1-88-83-FONTS to get a copy of the "Font and Function" catalog for more details.... Glenn Reid Adobe Systems
jmr@nada.kth.se (Jan Michael Rynning) (07/24/89)
In article <1006@adobe.UUCP> greid@adobe.COM (Glenn Reid) writes: >I think the new "Adobe Originals" collection will help. In particular, >the new Adobe Garamond font and Utopia, both designed at Adobe, contain: > > * ff fi fl ffi ffl ligatures > * small capitals > * old style digits > * alternates (swash capitals, ornaments, alternative letters) > * superior letters: a,b,d,e,i,l,m,n,o,r,s,t > * titling capitals (for use at larger point sizes, as in display) > * miscellaneous: symbols, punctuation, dot leaders, etc. Are the small capitals of these fonts the tradititional type of small capitals, i.e. with a height equal to the normal x-height of the font? Do they have a sufficiently large set of mathematical symbols, or are we supposed to use Lucida (or Knuth's Computer Modern) for mathematical typesetting? Does Lucida have all the things mentioned above? >Call 1-88-83-FONTS to get a copy of the "Font and Function" catalog >for more details.... Hmmm... I only have digits on my telephone dial. How do the letters map to digits? Jan Michael Rynning, jmr@nada.kth.se Department of Numerical Analysis If you can't fully handle domains: and Computing Science, ARPA: jmr%nada.kth.se@uunet.uu.net Royal Institute of Technology, UUCP: {uunet,mcvax,...}!nada.kth.se!jmr S-100 44 Stockholm, BITNET: jmr@sekth Sweden. Phone: +46-8-7906288
greid@adobe.com (Glenn Reid) (07/25/89)
In article <1339@draken.nada.kth.se> jmr@nada.kth.se (Jan Michael Rynning) writes: >In article <1006@adobe.UUCP> greid@adobe.COM (Glenn Reid) writes: >>I think the new "Adobe Originals" collection will help. In particular, >>the new Adobe Garamond font and Utopia, both designed at Adobe, contain: > >Are the small capitals of these fonts the tradititional type of small >capitals, i.e. with a height equal to the normal x-height of the font? Yes, they are traditional small caps. >Do they have a sufficiently large set of mathematical symbols, or are >we supposed to use Lucida (or Knuth's Computer Modern) for mathematical >typesetting? Does Lucida have all the things mentioned above? No. Mathematical symbols have not been part of traditional typefaces, and Adobe's new "Expert Character Sets" are intended for high-quality typography, not mathematical typesetting. Lucida was not designed at Adobe, and although it has a full character set, I don't think it matches the new expert set. Better look in the catalog to be sure of what it contains. >>Call 1-88-83-FONTS to get a copy of the "Font and Function" catalog >>for more details.... > >Hmmm... I only have digits on my telephone dial. How do the letters >map to digits? Sorry about that. How North-America-centric of me. Besides, I got the phone number wrong. Here's what it should be: 1-800-833-6687 Font & Function really is a great catalog, and it will answer most or all of your font questions, provide type samples, character set information, and whatever else you might be curious about. Thanks for your interest. Sorry about the phone number. Glenn Reid Adobe Systems P.S. Oh, just in case you're curious, here is how (on American phones) the letters map to digits: 1 2 3 Two letters are absent: Q and Z. ABC DEF 4 5 6 GHI JKL MNO 7 8 9 PRS TUV WXY * 0 # Everybody over here uses these cute mappings when they pick phone numbers, hoping that the numbers will be more mnemonic. Unfortunately, although they are easier to remember, they are a lot harder to dial. ---
webber@utstat.uucp (Bob Webber) (07/25/89)
At the risk of jamming the net with trivia, the replacement of the letters in the Adobe order desk number with digits doesn't help even Canadians, let alone Swedes: toll-free numbers don't work internationally, with rare exceptions. It would be more useful if Glenn Reid (or somebody else at Adobe) posted a good, direct, toll-charged telephone number for voice of fax. Also, please note that people beyond this continent have to put something before the area code other than a "1". For those of us with limited telephone budgets, the most useful information of all is a paper mail or electronic mail address. Thanks. -- Bob Webber, Office of the Dean of Arts and Science, University of Toronto Internet: webber@artsci.toronto.edu; webber@utstat.toronto.edu UUCP: utzoo!utas!webber; utzoo!utstat!webber
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (07/25/89)
In article <1012@adobe.UUCP> greid@adobe.COM (Glenn Reid) writes: > Font & Function [will] provide type samples I've always wondered about the type samples. Who picks the silly little bits of text used in the type samples? -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 {att,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy -or- roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu "The connector is the network"
bezanson@adobe.COM (Brian Bezanson) (07/26/89)
In article <1989Jul25.020422.8590@utstat.uucp> webber@utstat.toronto.edu (Bob Webber) writes: >rare exceptions. It would be more useful if Glenn Reid (or somebody else >at Adobe) posted a good, direct, toll-charged telephone number for voice >of fax. Also, please note that people beyond this continent have to put >... >For those of us with limited telephone budgets, the most useful information >of all is a paper mail or electronic mail address. Here's the latest list of phone numbers and addresses: Adobe Systems Incorporated - Headquarters 1585 Charleston Road Mountain View, CA 94039-7900 (415) 961-4400 Fax: (415) 961-3769 US & Canada: 800-344-8335 Developer Support: 415-961-4111 Customer Support: 415-961-0911 Adobe Systems Incorporated - Boston One New England Exectutive Park Burlington, MA 01803 (617) 273-2120 Fax: (617) 273-2336 Adobe Systems Europe B.V. World Trade Center B-7 Strawinskylaan 631 1077 XX Amsterdam Netherlands 31-30-575-3193 Fax: 31-20-575-3124 Adobe Systems Japan Aoyama Dai ichi Tanaka Bldg 2-1-5 Shibuya Shibuya-ku Tokyo 150, Japan 03-486-4656 Fax: 03-486-4654 Hope these help. For technical support on an Adobe product, you can call (the best way), or send a letter. If you have access to CompuServe, you can also go to the Adobe forum for help. If you are a European customer, you can make orders and get technical support by calling Adobe Europe, similar for Adobe Japan. This information is from the back of Adobe publications, like the PostScript Products brochure. Any typos are probably my fault. ---- Brian Bezanson
lyndon@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Lyndon Nerenberg) (07/30/89)
In article <1012@adobe.UUCP> greid@adobe.COM (Glenn Reid) writes: >Sorry about that. How North-America-centric of me. Besides, I got >the phone number wrong. Here's what it should be: > > 1-800-833-6687 Speaking of which ... it would be *real* *nice* is vendors provided a "straight" phone number that's guaranteed to work from outside the U.S. In most cases, 800 numbers don't work outside the continental United States. Actually, I'm impressed that this number works from Canada! Most don't ... -- Lyndon Nerenberg VE6BBM / Computing Services / Athabasca University {alberta,decwrl,ncc}!atha!lyndon || lyndon@cs.AthabascaU.CA It's 2:00 A.M.; Nobody looks ugly.
greid@adobe.com (Glenn Reid) (08/01/89)
In article <694@aurora.AthabascaU.CA> lyndon@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Lyndon Nerenberg) writes: >In article <1012@adobe.UUCP> greid@adobe.COM (Glenn Reid) writes: > >>Sorry about that. How North-America-centric of me. Besides, I got >>the phone number wrong. Here's what it should be: >> >> 1-800-833-6687 > >Speaking of which ... it would be *real* *nice* is vendors provided >a "straight" phone number that's guaranteed to work from outside the >U.S. In most cases, 800 numbers don't work outside the continental >United States. Sigh. Here I thought I was being helpful by providing the toll-free number (that's what the "800" area code means, to those of you who are not familiar with the U.S. phone system). I will certainly provide the expensive long-distance number in the future, as well. I have no idea how to call here from wherever you are, so you must supply the appropriate prefixes, if any, to these numbers. To refresh people's memories, you can call to get a copy of the "Font & Function" font catalog from Adobe: Adobe Systems: In U.S.: 1-800-83-FONTS Europe: 31-20-575-3193 (Amsterdam) Elsewhere: 415-961-4400 I hope I've gotten it right this time. Sorry to bother everybody with this trivia. Glenn Reid Adobe Systems
holland@m2.csc.ti.com (Fred Hollander) (08/26/89)
I'm curious. Even if the font supports ligatures, are there any software packages that will recognize that a ligature should be used? Or do you have to specifically type (using some option-shift modifier) the ligature in place of the letter combination? -Fred ______________________________________________________________________________ | Fred Hollander | | | Computer Science Center | "Ha ha ha ha ha ha, Ah what a day!" | | Texas Instruments, Inc. | -- Joker | | Internet: hollander@ti.com | | | Telnet: 214/995-0696 | The above statements are my own and not | | AppleLink: D1392 | representative of Texas Instruments. | ______________________________________________________________________________
ralerche@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Robert A. Lerche) (08/26/89)
Sprint, from Borland, does automatic ligature support (fi, fl) as well as making open and close double quotes, (C) -> copyright symbol, etc. These are in a file you can edit if you want to add your own or change theirs.
halliday@cheddar.cc.ubc.ca (Laura Halliday) (08/26/89)
In article <HOLLAND.89Aug25144558@m2.csc.ti.com> holland@m2.csc.ti.com (Fred Hollander) writes: > >I'm curious. Even if the font supports ligatures, are there any >software packages that will recognize that a ligature should be used? >Or do you have to specifically type (using some option-shift modifier) >the ligature in place of the letter combination? Now you know why I use TeX for things that really matter, all round pain that it is in so many other respects. I also use it because it does kerns auto- matically, has very smart hyphenation and justifies a paragraph at a time rather than a line at a time. Personally, I'd like to see a WYSIWYG processor that did all of this. It wouldn't be hard - the hardest part of it is the paragraph justification. It's a little bit more involved than cramming words onto a line until you come to one that won't fit... ...laura
diomidis@ecrcvax.UUCP (Diomidis Spinellis) (08/28/89)
In article <HOLLAND.89Aug25144558@m2.csc.ti.com> holland@m2.csc.ti.com (Fred Hollander) writes: > >I'm curious. Even if the font supports ligatures, are there any >software packages that will recognize that a ligature should be used? >Or do you have to specifically type (using some option-shift modifier) >the ligature in place of the letter combination? Ditroff supports ligatures: miranda6% echo affluent | ditroff | psdit | tail % Postscript output for the first page; % (Prologue ommited) %%Page: 1 1 10 s 10 xH 0 xS 1 f 576 96(af\257uent)N % affluent % ---- (The fl ligature for Times-Roman) 1 p %%Trailer >-Fred Diomidis -- Diomidis Spinellis European Computer-Industry Research Centre (ECRC) Arabellastrasse 17, D-8000 Muenchen 81, West Germany +49 (89) 92699199 USA: diomidis%ecrcvax.uucp@pyramid.pyramid.com ...!pyramid!ecrcvax!diomidis Europe: diomidis@ecrcvax.uucp ...!unido!ecrcvax!diomidis
msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) (08/29/89)
> I'm curious. Even if the font supports ligatures, are there any > software packages that will recognize that a ligature should be used? Yes, troff can automatically generate ligatures for the letter sequences ff, ffi, ffl, fi, and fl. There is a user-level command to disable three-letter ligatures or all ligatures if desired. Our version, sold as part of SoftQuad Publishing Software, can be configured at font-table level to disable any specific ligatures that don't exist. (This is the least of its features, but I'd better not make this too much of an advertisement. If you're interested, call (800) 387-2777 from the USA, or +1 416 963 8337, or mail to mail@sq.com. Of course we support PostScript.) -- Mark Brader "'You wanted it to WORK? That costs EXTRA!' SoftQuad Inc., Toronto is probably the second-place security hole utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com after simple carelessness." -- John Woods This article is in the public domain.
jaap+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jaap Akkerhuis) (08/29/89)
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.lang.postscript: 28-Aug-89 Re: Are there any > 'real' fo.. Mark Brader@sq.sq.com (953) > Yes, troff can automatically generate ligatures for the letter sequences > ff, ffi, ffl, fi, and fl. There is a user-level command to disable > three-letter ligatures or all ligatures if desired. > Our version, sold as part of SoftQuad Publishing Software, can be > configured > at font-table level to disable any specific ligatures that don't exist. There is nothing special about that. All versions of troff can do that. > (This is the least of its features, but I'd better not make this too much > of an advertisement. If you're interested, Somehow it looks like a blatent advertisement to me anyway. I cannot wait until Proficient, Elan and anybody else selling troff take this opportunity to tell the net that they have this feature as well, support PostScript and by the way, here is the number... jaap
jimi@h-three.UUCP (jimi) (09/01/89)
In article <761@ecrcvax.UUCP>, diomidis@ecrcvax.UUCP (D. Spinellis) writes: > In article <HOLLAND.89Aug25144558@m2.csc.ti.com> holland@m2.csc.ti.com (Fred Hollander) writes: > >Even if the font supports ligatures, are there any software packages > >that will recognize that a ligature should be used? > Ditroff supports ligatures: > miranda6% echo affluent | ditroff | psdit | tail > % Postscript output for the first page; > % (Prologue ommited) > %%Page: 1 1 > 10 s 10 xH 0 xS 1 f > 576 96(af\257uent)N % affluent > % ---- (The fl ligature for Times-Roman) > 1 p > %%Trailer ditroff has a ligature mode that can be turned on and off. When ligature mode (set by an argument to the .li request) is on, ditroff attempts to set ligatures. In the case of Adobe's fonts, however, ditroff can only set the ligatures available in the font. In the preceding example, "affluent" should not contain an "fl" ligature. Rather, it should contain an "ffl" ligature. I've wondered why Abobe's otherwise skilled typeface designers consider the "ff," "ffi," and "ffl" ligatures unnecessary. To see the difference, typeset the following words (with your equivalent of ligature mode on, of course) on a PostScript typesetter and a typesetter that provides a complete f-ligature set, e.g., Compugraphic 8400: official, efficient, affiant, effacing, affective, effective, iffy, affluent, effluvium, effloresce, afflux. Times Roman and equivalents are excellent test fonts. The words set in the font with the complete f-ligature set look much smoother. The f[f-ligature] words look like they have bumps in them, bumps that distract the eyes and call unwelcome attention to word's components. This isn't to praise Compugraphic, in particular, though their fonts are very good, but to pick on Adobe's type designers, whose incomplete f-ligature sets detract from their otherwise fine fonts. I'm curious about why they made this decision. -- Jim Ingram uunet!h-three!jimi | jimi%h-three@uunet.uu.net h-three Systems Corporation P.O. Box 12557 RTP NC 27709 919 549 8334
msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) (09/02/89)
I wrote: > > Our version [of troff] can be configured at font-table > > level to disable any specific ligatures that don't exist. Jaap Akkerhuis chastised: > There is nothing special about that. All versions of troff can do that. And he's right, at least for sufficiently modern ("ditroff") versions. The trouble is that I'm more familiar with esoterica like this in our version than in others, and I somehow got to thinking that this *was* one of our enhancements. My apologies. -- Mark Brader, Toronto "But I do't have a '' key o my termial." utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- Lynn Gold This article is in the public domain.
greid@adobe.com (Glenn Reid) (09/03/89)
In article <724@h-three.UUCP> jimi@h-three.UUCP (jimi) writes: >In the preceding example, "affluent" should not contain an "fl" >ligature. Rather, it should contain an "ffl" ligature. >I've wondered why Abobe's otherwise skilled typeface designers >consider the "ff," "ffi," and "ffl" ligatures unnecessary. > >This isn't to praise Compugraphic, in particular, though their fonts >are very good, but to pick on Adobe's type designers, whose incomplete >f-ligature sets detract from their otherwise fine fonts. I'm curious >about why they made this decision. In the beginning, Adobe converted other peoples' type to PostScript form. These fonts did not have ffl or ffi ligatures in them (at least that is my understanding), so the PostScript fonts didn't. The original subject of the "any real fonts available?" question was exactly that: are there any Adobe fonts that do have ligatures? The answer is yes; the new Adobe fonts have what is called the "expert character set", which contains lots of goodies like small caps, alternates, old-style numbers, more ligatures, etc. Take a look at Adobe Garamond, for instance. Unfortunately, the discussion quickly degenerated into a discussion of 800 phone numbers and why they can't be accessed outside North America, so it may have gotten lost in the noise. Glenn Reid Adobe Systems
milun@sybil.cs.buffalo.edu (Davin Milun) (09/14/89)
jimi@h-three.UUCP (jimi) writes: > diomidis@ecrcvax.UUCP (D. Spinellis) writes: >> Ditroff supports ligatures: > >> miranda6% echo affluent | ditroff | psdit | tail >> % Postscript output for the first page; >> % (Prologue ommited) >> %%Page: 1 1 >> 10 s 10 xH 0 xS 1 f >> 576 96(af\257uent)N % affluent >> % ---- (The fl ligature for Times-Roman) >> 1 p >> %%Trailer > > In the case of Adobe's fonts, >however, ditroff can only set the ligatures available in the font. > >In the preceding example, "affluent" should not contain an "fl" >ligature. Rather, it should contain an "ffl" ligature. >I've wondered why Abobe's otherwise skilled typeface designers >consider the "ff," "ffi," and "ffl" ligatures unnecessary. On our system, I obtain the following results: echo affluent | ditroff -Tps -D | tail % Much large header/prologue removed 10 R 10 R 120 V 720(a)S 764 H (f)show 10 -.5 mul h (\257)show 10 R 848(uent)S 7920 V EP %%Trailer %%DocumentFonts: Times-Roman %%Pages: 1 This shows that ditroff (which in our case is really a shell-script which adds arguments, calls troff, and pipes results through the required filters) can do better than falling back on Adobe's lack of three character ligatures. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Davin Milun Internet: milun@cs.Buffalo.EDU uucp: ..!{boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!milun BITNET: milun@sunybcs.BITNET