kibo@pawl.rpi.edu (James 'Kibo' Parry) (12/01/90)
[] When I got Adobe Type Manager 2.0 for my Macintosh, I was surprised to see (when printing fonts very large) that the included Courier font had slab serifs with _square_ ends, as opposed to the rounded ones commonly found on PostScript printers. Was this change just an aesthetic choice by Adobe's designers, or was there a technical reason? (I believe I've heard that the Courier in PostScript printers is a stroked font. Since ATM uses only Type 1 fonts, which are outlines, I imagine Courier has been redrawn. Still, is there a reason it wasn't drawn with rounded serifs?) My Courier outline font file is "Version 002.002". -- James "Kibo" Parry kibo@rpi.edu 132 Beacon St. #213, Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922
clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (12/02/90)
In article <}X}^8==@rpi.edu> kibo@pawl.rpi.edu (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >[] > When I got Adobe Type Manager 2.0 for my Macintosh, I was >surprised to see (when printing fonts very large) that the included >Courier font had slab serifs with _square_ ends, as opposed to the >rounded ones commonly found on PostScript printers. > Hmm, I'm going out on a limb here, since I don't know this for SURE, but I believe that Courier has always had "slab" serifs. Perhaps you're thinking of American Typewriter? Courier on Postscript printers is an outline rendering of a stroke font, and as such I would expect the ends of each serif to be square (or in the case of the end of a rounded stroke, to be square to the tangent of the curve at that point--as in the top curve of the lowercase a). --Kathy -- ........................................................................... : Kathy Strong : "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot, : : (Clouds moving slowly) : and everything's blurry" : : clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : --El Arroyo : :..........................................................................:
kibo@pawl.rpi.edu (James 'Kibo' Parry) (12/02/90)
In article <40512@ut-emx.uucp> clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) writes: >In article <}X}^8==@rpi.edu> kibo@pawl.rpi.edu (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >>[] >> When I got Adobe Type Manager 2.0 for my Macintosh, I was >>surprised to see (when printing fonts very large) that the included >>Courier font had slab serifs with _square_ ends, as opposed to the >>rounded ones commonly found on PostScript printers. >> >Hmm, I'm going out on a limb here, since I don't know this for SURE, but >I believe that Courier has always had "slab" serifs. Perhaps you're thinking >of American Typewriter? Courier on Postscript printers is an outline >rendering of a stroke font, and as such I would expect the ends of each >serif to be square (or in the case of the end of a rounded stroke, to be >square to the tangent of the curve at that point--as in the top curve of >the lowercase a). No, I meant Courier. I recall that back when I used LaserWriters they made serifs with rounded tips (like real typewriters with cloth ribbons). But the version with ATM makes squared-off slab serifs which make the font look very different. -- James "Kibo" Parry kibo@rpi.edu 132 Beacon St. #213, Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922
henry@angel.Eng.Sun.COM (Henry McGilton) (12/03/90)
In article <4004@rpi.edu>, kibo@pawl.rpi.edu (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
* No, I meant Courier.
* I recall that back when I used LaserWriters they made
* serifs with rounded tips (like real typewriters with
* cloth ribbons). But the version with ATM makes
* squared-off slab serifs which make the font look very different.
I grabbed a couple of the outline descriptions from the
Courier font out of my LaserWriter II-NTX and they are all
straight lines. Even the curvy characters like `R' only
appear to have curves for the curved parts. The serifs are
square. Linda Gass of Adobe is the person reputed to have
digitised Courier, so perhaps she could comment.
........ Henryjack@Taffy.rice.edu (Jack W. Howarth) (12/03/90)
In article <}X}^8==@rpi.edu> kibo@pawl.rpi.edu (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >[] > When I got Adobe Type Manager 2.0 for my Macintosh, I was >surprised to see (when printing fonts very large) that the included >Courier font had slab serifs with _square_ ends, as opposed to the >rounded ones commonly found on PostScript printers. > > Was this change just an aesthetic choice by Adobe's designers, >or was there a technical reason? > > (I believe I've heard that the Courier in PostScript printers is >a stroked font. Since ATM uses only Type 1 fonts, which are outlines, I >imagine Courier has been redrawn. Still, is there a reason it wasn't >drawn with rounded serifs?) > > My Courier outline font file is "Version 002.002". > >-- > >James "Kibo" Parry kibo@rpi.edu >132 Beacon St. #213, Boston, MA 02116 >(617) 262-3922 James, I called Adobe about that question a couple of months back mainly because I wanted to know if the PlusPack fonts were going through new revisions as well. They told me that the only some of the earliest fonts like Courier were being redone. As the oldest ones, Adobe felt they could be done better than before. Cheers... Jack Howarth
tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Terry Jones) (12/03/90)
I have read the discussion so far and can't stay quiet any longer. Courier on the printer has rounded ends on the serifs. Courier on ATM has square serifs on the ends. Courier LOOKS like a stroke font rather than a filled font (I am NOT saying it is, I am saying it LOOKS like it is). If I had to guess at the difference then I would guess that Courier is a stroke font rather than a filled font and that the equivalent of "1 setlinecap" is done in the printer and "2 setlinecap" is done on screen. My guess is that setlinecap was too hard or too useless to burden ATM with so they let Courier suffer on screen and in non-PostScript printers. I bet they (Adobe) wouldn't loose too much sleep over Courier (my personal fav!). tj
lee@sq.sq.com (Liam R. E. Quin) (12/04/90)
henry@angel.Eng.Sun.COM (Henry McGilton) writes: >kibo@pawl.rpi.edu (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: > * No, I meant Courier. > > * I recall that back when I used LaserWriters they made > * serifs with rounded tips (like real typewriters with > * cloth ribbons). But the version with ATM makes > * squared-off slab serifs which make the font look very different. > >I grabbed a couple of the outline descriptions from the >Courier font out of my LaserWriter II-NTX and they are all >straight lines. [...] The serifs are square. Yes, the serifs are square, but the default linecap is a circular arc, so the ends of the serifs are drawn as parts of circles both on the LaserWriter and under Open Windows 2.0. The LinoType Collection catalogue shows the slab serifs in Courier as having rounded ends (I'm looking at 00564 Courier Typewriter). If you do a 0 setlinecap in the font's Buildchar you'll get square ends. Lee -- Liam R. E. Quin, lee@sq.com, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, +1 (416) 963-8337
dkletter@adobe.COM (SUGAR in their vitamins?) (12/05/90)
In article <}X}^8==@rpi.edu> kibo@pawl.rpi.edu (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: > When I got Adobe Type Manager 2.0 for my Macintosh, I was >surprised to see (when printing fonts very large) that the included >Courier font had slab serifs with _square_ ends, as opposed to the >rounded ones commonly found on PostScript printers. > > (I believe I've heard that the Courier in PostScript printers is >a stroked font. Since ATM uses only Type 1 fonts, which are outlines, I >imagine Courier has been redrawn. Still, is there a reason it wasn't >drawn with rounded serifs?) to which Kathy <clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu> responded: >Hmm, I'm going out on a limb here, since I don't know this for SURE, but >I believe that Courier has always had "slab" serifs. Perhaps you're thinking >of American Typewriter? Courier on Postscript printers is an outline >rendering of a stroke font, and as such I would expect the ends of each >serif to be square (or in the case of the end of a rounded stroke, to be >square to the tangent of the curve at that point--as in the top curve of >the lowercase a). not quite... 2:^) James was a bit closer to the mark... the original versions of Courier (which are in the ROMs of a PostScript laser printer as well) were stroked fonts with rounded end caps. i believe it was a TRW design. because ATM does not handle stroked fonts, it was redone as an outline, with slab serifs. some changes to character shapes were made. notice the lowercase 'e' or the 'ae'. in any case, Courier is sort of like Garamond. there are many many versions of it running around. it was decided that the slab serifed version was more true to the correct look of Courier and also produced better looking output at smaller sizes on 300dpi printers. the only gotcha in this whole picture is that if you have a PostScript printer, chances are you don't have these current outlines in your ROMs. hence, when you print there will be some font substitution going on, and the spacing between both versions is slightly different. the work around for that is to download to RAM the outlines that come with ATM because as you know, the priority for which fonts get used is RAM, ROM, disk so what you are doing is tricking the printer into using the "right stuff" essentially. 2;^) hope this helps. --d -- Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (12/05/90)
In article <8809@adobe.UUCP> dkletter@adobe.UUCP (SUGAR in their vitamins?) writes: > the only gotcha in this whole picture is that if you >have a PostScript printer, chances are you don't have these current >outlines in your ROMs. hence, when you print there will be some font >substitution going on, and the spacing between both versions is slightly >different. What do you mean, the "only gotcha"? First of all, how can there possibly be spacing differences between two versions of the same MONOSPACED font? That's absurd. Second of all, if Adobe has changed the widths, they have committed an arch sin, and should have called the font by a totally different name. Luckily, Adobe knows that, and I am quite confident that the widths of Courier have not changed, so I'm looking forward to the retraction statement :-) I have a feeling the slab serifs are a slight improvement for poor Courier, although it remains aesthetically displeasing no matter what kind of serifs it has. Glenn -- Glenn Reid RightBrain Software glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us PostScript/NeXT developers ..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn 415-851-1785
lemon@adobe.com (David Lemon) (12/06/90)
I's like to try to clear up some of the questions that have been floating around regarding Courier. So: * The Courier in most existing printers is a stroked font with rounded endcaps. It was stroked because 8 years ago ROM was worth more than gold, and a stroked font uses much less memory (half the path elements). The original version also used one set of paths for all four fonts, for further memory savings. * When the need for a Type 1 version outweighed the (addictive) memory savings, Sumner Stone gave us the go-ahead to use a more accurate design, rather than the outline clone used by the clonemakers. This leads to all the questions you've seen to date. Such questions are inevitable, but the improvement seemed worth it. * Newer printers and the ATM package include a revised version of Courier (anything with version number 2.00x). As has been mentioned, there are multiple designs of this face, but Adobe's newer version is fairly well in line with the original IBM design. (Personally, I prefer Frutiger's redesign.) * Although the character bounding boxes are necessarily different in the new version, Adobe has an *adamant* policy of not altering character widths in any revised fonts, so line breaks will not be affected. I hope we can now move on to more important matters... - David Lemon Type Nerd Disclaimer: I wasn't here 8 years ago, and I've been known to have opinions.