terry@venus.sunquest.com (Terry R. Friedrichsen) (01/31/91)
Our company has the need to include the signatures of folks who are authorized to sign things into PostScript documents. For some reason, our senior VP is unwilling to spend two or three days signing his name 1500 times on all copies of a mailing. I don't pretend to understand why not, but to avoid this, he has asked me to find out about converting his signature so it can be printed directly on the PostScript document. One way would be to scan in the signature, convert it to a pixel file that PostScript will like, and send it down with the document. Does anyone out there have any cleverer ideas? Are there companies out there which will take your signature and produce a PostScript represen- tation of it, in some form? How about representing the signature as a font character? Here's a clever idea: generate a fractal representation of the signature, and feed THAT to PostScript with the appropriate image regeneration code. Anybody have any thoughts on that? Terry R. Friedrichsen terry@venus.sunquest.com (Internet) uunet!sunquest!terry (Usenet) terry@sds.sdsc.edu (alternate address; I live in Tucson) Quote: "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'." - Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back
glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (02/01/91)
In article <13137@sunquest.UUCP> terry@venus.sunquest.com (Terry R. Friedrichsen) writes: >One way would be to scan in the signature, convert it to a pixel file >that PostScript will like, and send it down with the document. That works well. Another thing that I have done is to scan in the signature and then curve-fit it with a stroked line, which ends up being a bit smoother than the pixel signature, more believable, and requires very little data as compared to the bitmap. I read mine into Adobe Illustrator on the Mac and auto-traced it, then cleaned it up so that it "looked like" my signature. It looks remarkably good, and you have to look very closely to notice that it was not signed by hand. -- Glenn Reid RightBrain Software glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us NeXT/PostScript developers ..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn 415-851-1785 (fax 851-1470)
jj1h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph Jackson) (02/02/91)
Excerpts from netnews.comp.lang.postscript: 31-Jan-91 Re: signatures in PostScript Glenn Reid@heaven.woodsi (865) > That works well. Another thing that I have done is to scan in the > signature and then curve-fit it with a stroked line, which ends up > being a bit smoother than the pixel signature, more believable, and > requires very little data as compared to the bitmap. > I read mine into Adobe Illustrator on the Mac and auto-traced it, > then cleaned it up so that it "looked like" my signature. It looks > remarkably good, and you have to look very closely to notice that it > was not signed by hand. Glenn, Could you send the resulting PostScript to this bboard? I'd really like to have a signed copy of your various PostScript books, but since we've never met before... Hmm, is there a way to manually feed an entire book through a LaserWriter? ;-) Joe Jackson Distributed Workstation Services Carnegie Mellon University Internet: jj1h+@andrew.cmu.edu Bitnet: jj1h+@ANDREW AT&Tnet: (412) 268-8799
rodney@sun.ipl.rpi.edu (Rodney Peck II) (02/03/91)
In article <sbeX8BO00VQpApqFpr@andrew.cmu.edu> jj1h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph Jackson) writes: >Excerpts from netnews.comp.lang.postscript: 31-Jan-91 Re: signatures in >PostScript Glenn Reid@heaven.woodsi (865) > >> I read mine into Adobe Illustrator on the Mac and auto-traced it, >> then cleaned it up so that it "looked like" my signature. It looks >> remarkably good, and you have to look very closely to notice that it >> was not signed by hand. > >Glenn, > >Could you send the resulting PostScript to this bboard? I'd really like >to have a signed copy of your various PostScript books, but since we've >never met before... Hmm, is there a way to manually feed an entire book >through a LaserWriter? ;-) Haven't heard of such a machine, but it's really easy to print up some checks. ;-) -- Rodney
prs@tcsc3b2.tcsc.com (Paul Stath) (02/05/91)
terry@venus.sunquest.com (Terry R. Friedrichsen) writes: >Our company has the need to include the signatures of folks who are >authorized to sign things into PostScript documents. For some reason, >our senior VP is unwilling to spend two or three days signing his name >1500 times on all copies of a mailing. I don't pretend to understand >why not, but to avoid this, he has asked me to find out about converting >his signature so it can be printed directly on the PostScript document. Gee, that sounds kinda unreasonable. ;-) >One way would be to scan in the signature, convert it to a pixel file >that PostScript will like, and send it down with the document. This is one way. >Does anyone out there have any cleverer ideas? Are there companies out >there which will take your signature and produce a PostScript represen- >tation of it, in some form? None that I know of. >How about representing the signature as a font character? Seems kinda exensive to download a entire font for just a signature. >Here's a clever idea: generate a fractal representation of the signature, >and feed THAT to PostScript with the appropriate image regeneration code. >Anybody have any thoughts on that? Also seems kinda expensive. I think what you are looking for has been done by Don Lancaster. Don is a PostScript _GOD_, and has written things that IMHO are some of the BEST examples of PostScript ever generated. I don't have his address since he stopped his "Ask the Guru" column in "Computer Shopper", but somebody on the net should be able to help. (Any takers??, Please post as I want to know also. E-Mail address would be GREAT.) One of the articles dealt specificly with putting a PostScript signature in a document. Claimed all that was needed was a piece of graph paper, a safety pin, and patience. >Terry R. Friedrichsen >terry@venus.sunquest.com (Internet) >uunet!sunquest!terry (Usenet) >terry@sds.sdsc.edu (alternate address; I live in Tucson) >Quote: "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'." - Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back
stanley@phoenix.com (John Stanley) (02/09/91)
> terry@venus.sunquest.com (Terry R. Friedrichsen) writes: > > >Our company has the need to include the signatures of folks who are > >authorized to sign things into PostScript documents. For some reason, > >our senior VP is unwilling to spend two or three days signing his name > >1500 times on all copies of a mailing. I don't pretend to understand > >why not, but to avoid this, he has asked me to find out about converting > >his signature so it can be printed directly on the PostScript document. > > >One way would be to scan in the signature, convert it to a pixel file > >that PostScript will like, and send it down with the document. > > >Does anyone out there have any cleverer ideas? Are there companies out > >there which will take your signature and produce a PostScript represen- > >tation of it, in some form? What is unclever about scanning and including the pixel file? If your publishing software allows you to input a TIFF or other format file, why not just do that? If the publishing software outputs PS, then inputting the signature TIFF and outputing a PS file, bingo, you have a PS signature. Why pay someone to do it? Are you writing the whole document in PostScript directly?
jgd@Dixie.Com (John G. DeArmond) (02/11/91)
prs@tcsc3b2.tcsc.com (Paul Stath) writes: >I think what you are looking for has been done by Don Lancaster. Don >is a PostScript _GOD_, and has written things that IMHO are some of the BEST >examples of PostScript ever generated. I don't have his address since he >stopped his "Ask the Guru" column in "Computer Shopper", but somebody >on the net should be able to help. (Any takers??, Please post as I want >to know also. E-Mail address would be GREAT.) One of the articles dealt >specificly with putting a PostScript signature in a document. >Claimed all that was needed was a piece of graph paper, a safety pin, >and patience. Yes indeed. Don Lancaster's address and phone are: Synergetics Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 (602) 428 4073 The book that explains manual signature digitization is in the "Ask the Guru" Selected Rreprints book that he publishes-on-demand. This book contains most of his Postscript/laserwriter tricks including the signature one. He's now broken this line into two books names appropriately enough, "Ask the Guru", volumes I and II. Don is now writing for "Midnight Engineering", "The Journal of Personal Product Development". He now calls his column "The Blatant Opportunist". This is a very nifty little magazine that has filled the gap left by "Micro Cornucopia" and "C Users' Journal" since it went Hollywood. I think enough of the magazine that I write a monthly column for it too :-) I now have a genuine DQ, having just recently entered the wonderful world of PostScript via the purchase of a TI MicroLaser (Nifty machine.) What is "encapsulated PostScript?" My ancient Red and Blue books don't mention it and neither does the TI manual. Email prefered. john -- John De Armond, WD4OQC | "Purveyors of speed to the Trade" (tm) Rapid Deployment System, Inc. | Home of the Nidgets (tm) Marietta, Ga | {emory,uunet}!rsiatl!jgd |"Politically InCorrect.. And damn proud of it
woody@chinacat.Unicom.COM (Woody Baker @ Eagle Signal) (02/12/91)
Don's column is back in the computer shopper. He has a Genie address, but no usenet code. His phone number is 602-248-4073 (Stafford Arizona). Don has a simple routine he calls curvetrace that takes a coordinate pair and an angle as a triad in an array of triads, and does curvetos between them. Don does signatures, by taking the signature, determining where the knots (end points) should be for each spline, and measuring the tangent angle for the end points. These then get entered into an array, and used in his curvetracing routines. The results are very nice. One of the many things that I do is converting logos and signatures to Postscript. I general just use Arts&Letters to create the splines. Cheers Woody
clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) (02/13/91)
terry@venus.sunquest.com (Terry R. Friedrichsen) writes: >Our company has the need to include the signatures of folks who are >authorized to sign things into PostScript documents. For some reason, >our senior VP is unwilling to spend two or three days signing his name >1500 times on all copies of a mailing. I don't pretend to understand >why not, but to avoid this, he has asked me to find out about converting >his signature so it can be printed directly on the PostScript document. Technical solutions are possible and sexy I guess, but it begs the question: Why don't you get him to manually sign *one* copy of it, and then photocopy it for the rest of the 1499? Surely it would be easier and faster to do your production run on a photocopier than many hours on the poor little printer. Besides, I don't think I'd like having my signature on line in such a convenient format for duplication. -- Chris Lewis, Phone: (613) 832-0541, Internet: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca UUCP: uunet!mitel!cunews!latour!ecicrl!clewis; Ferret Mailing List: (ferret-request@eci386); Psroff (not Adobe Transcript) enquiries: psroff-request@eci386, current patchlevel is *7*.
johankha@tz.wimsey.bc.ca (e_mou) (02/15/91)
Lancaster has recently written some articles in either Byte or PC Magazine. You might try contacting him through there, if you've run out of other leads.
johankha@tz.wimsey.bc.ca (e_mou) (02/18/91)
Or you could just scan it in, autotrace it, and include that. Or you could convert his sig into a series of curves, and include the ps code in the document. Word for Windows (as an example) allows you to directly embed PS code within the document. What could be simpler?
tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) (02/19/91)
There does exist a signature scanning service. Their sample kit was uploaded to CompuServe's WordPerfect Support Group "A" Forum (GO WPSGA) in Library 1 (SCAN.ZIP). It includes sample documents in WordPerfect and Word For Windows format, plus a TIFF'd signature. I suspect they could be persuaded to emit EPS instead. That's the extent of my knowledge. I make no endorsement of any kind. SysCon 1904 E. 32nd Ct. Des Moines, Iowa 50317 1-515-263-0294
jad@dayton.UUCP (J. Deters) (02/20/91)
>terry@venus.sunquest.com (Terry R. Friedrichsen) writes: >>Our company has the need to include the signatures of folks who are >>authorized to sign things into PostScript documents. For some reason, >>our senior VP is unwilling to spend two or three days signing his name >>1500 times on all copies of a mailing. I don't pretend to understand >>why not, but to avoid this, he has asked me to find out about converting >>his signature so it can be printed directly on the PostScript document. >clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) responds: >Technical solutions are possible and sexy I guess, but it begs the question: >Why don't you get him to manually sign *one* copy of it, and then photocopy >it for the rest of the 1499? Surely it would be easier and faster to >do your production run on a photocopier than many hours on the poor little >printer. Besides, I don't think I'd like having my signature on line in >such a convenient format for duplication. Our "poor little printers" are $17,000 jobs that spit paper out four times faster than our copiers, and every "copy" is an "original". We also have these "poor little printers" installed in 61 stores from Ohio to the Dakotas. Remember that all kinds of sites receive news -- schools, small companies, and Fortune 500 firms. Please don't presuppose that everyone who asks a question is the only one to whom the answer applies. We're using PostScript more and more for distributed printing of everything from signs to UPC books to purchase order forms to inventory control tags. When the Grand Poobah of Human Resources has a memo going to all executives at all locations, our Electronic Message System is a helluva lot cheaper than hauling stuff from our graphic services to the trucks and shipping it all over the place. Anytime we can say something with PostScript, we say it with fewer dollars. I'll grant you that the value of a digitized signature isn't worth its weight in used toner cartridges, but it carries the same weight as a reproduced signature. I, for one, would be ecstatic to have my initials and/or signature available for inclusion on memos that go out. If someone would post Don's "digitizing method", I'd be most grateful. -j, besides, I kinda like the idea of having the boss' signature on line... -- J. Deters INTERNET: jad@dayton.DHDSC.MN.ORG ATT: 612-375-3116 UUCP: ...!bungia!dayton!jad USPS: 700 Nicollet Mall/MIS 1060 ICBM: 44^58'36"N by 93^16'14"W Minneapolis, MN 55402
woody@chinacat.Unicom.COM (Woody Baker @ Eagle Signal) (02/20/91)
In article <46013405@bfmny0.BFM.COM>, tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes: > There does exist a signature scanning service. Their sample kit was For what it is worth, I do the same sort of things. I often digitize signatures and logos for people. Drop me a email note for further info. I do charge for the digitization work. Cheers Woody Woody Baker Rt.1 Box I Manor, Tx. 78653
stanley@phoenix.com (John Stanley) (02/21/91)
jad@dayton.UUCP (J. Deters) writes: > I, for one, would be ecstatic to have my initials and/or signature available > for inclusion on memos that go out. If someone would post Don's "digitizing > method", I'd be most grateful. Doesn't this eliminate the value of a signature altogether? Why not just include your initials (in ASCII)? Once your signature is available in machine readable form, it is meaningless, as there is no way of telling if it is a forgery or not. If someone else uses the same file to sign a fake memo as you do to sign real ones, how do you tell? Better yet, how is anyone else supposed to know? The only reason to sign something is to prove that it is authentic. They don't even need to have the file you use. They just need to get a copy of the file sent to the printer. > -j, besides, I kinda like the idea of having the boss' signature on line... Hmmm, I don't know WHY you would like that, unless ...
seymour@milton.u.washington.edu (Richard Seymour) (02/23/91)
In article <13137@sunquest.UUCP> terry@venus.sunquest.com (Terry R. Friedrichsen) writes: >Our company has the need to include the signatures of folks who are >authorized to sign things into PostScript documents. For some reason, > > Are there companies out >there which will take your signature and produce a PostScript represen- >tation of it, in some form? > two other sources for this: (1) (seen in an Info World ad) Orbit Enterprises, p.o.box 2875-IW Glen Ellyn, IL 60138 $50 for one, $120 for three (2) look in the yellow pages for a local at-their-storefront computer rental site (such as The Computer Workshop 523-0872 here in Seattle) -- for $15/hour (1/2 hour minimum) they've got everything needed to do it yourself (or they'll do it for you for $25-35/hour) In TCW's case, your signiture would go in an HP scanner, and be traced by Corel Draw! into PostScript. good luck --dick
glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (02/24/91)
In article <1ggoX1w163w@phoenix.com> stanley@phoenix.com (John Stanley) writes: >jad@dayton.UUCP (J. Deters) writes: >> I, for one, would be ecstatic to have my initials and/or signature available >> for inclusion on memos that go out. If someone would post Don's "digitizing >> method", I'd be most grateful. > > Doesn't this eliminate the value of a signature altogether? Why not >just include your initials (in ASCII)? Once your signature is available >in machine readable form, it is meaningless, as there is no way of >telling if it is a forgery or not. You miss the point. The signature isn't being used for authentication purposes like signing checks. It's being used to write a form letter to a zillion customers, where forgery is a non-issue. I suppose that once the signature is available it could be used for unauthorized things, but only if digitized signatures are accepted in such contexts, which it seems they might not be. Although, as I think about it, I've seen digitized signatures on payroll checks in companies where there are a *lot* of checks written every month. Anyway, I think that lots of people use digitized signatures for lots of purposes, and authentication isn't really the point. Glenn -- Glenn Reid RightBrain Software glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us NeXT/PostScript developers ..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn 415-851-1785 (fax 851-1470)
maguire@cs.columbia.edu (Gerald Q. Maguire) (02/24/91)
I have found that a simple way to do this to use Adobe Illustrator and
input your signature as a series of splines. My signature results in
approximately 80 curves - each curve consists of 6 coords with roughly
6 digits of precision. As simply method of protecting this is to only
include a version of this in documents which has been modified to
encode the date+time+documentID (you are of course free to encrypt
this "timestamp" before encoding it into the coords). The result is
that if someone edits the PostScript into another document you can
establish if it is the correct signature for this document [you can
even write a procedure to do signature authentication if you wish to
use public key encryption techniques]. The nice thing is that small
perterbations to the signture when printed (due to the modification of
the low order digits in the coords) does not destroy the appearance of
the signature. A homework problem is to determine the range of
variance which produces an observable but not objectionable change
when the document is printed at a given resolution. A more advanced
homework problem is to produce a version that when scanned (after
being printed) will permit the extraction of the encoded information -
thus making it possible to authenticate printed versions without access
to the source PostScript. [For the real security enthusiast you can
also very the line used for the spline to ensure that you can tell an
original printed version from a copy of a printed version (using the
same techniques used for high security printed documents {which take
advantage of the physics of toners}).]
Chipglenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (02/25/91)
In article <Fm3VX2w163w@phoenix.com> stanley@phoenix.com (John Stanley) writes: > Ok. Give me a copy of your signature, and I will print up a zillion >copies of a letter saying your product is now 50% off, or free, or >any wacky thing I want. I will let YOU deal with the irate customers >who call and want you to honor the offer YOU signed. > Forgery is an issue. It might not be an issue now, but say you >fire the fellow who happened to make a copy of your signature. Well, the recipients of the zillion letters wouldn't know my signature from anything else, so you might as well forge it if you're going to do that. As I understand forgery (and I don't, very well, other than having had someone steal checks from me and forge them a long time ago), a signature is only your signature if you say it is. That is, if I have a proxy sign something, I can later claim that it's my signature, even if it's obviously not, and there's no forgery involved. It's tricky. That's why they have witnesses and notaries public for things that really matter, so you can't claim later that it isn't your signature. Anyway, given that it's trivial to take a real signed letter and digitize it, no matter whose signature is on it, it isn't terribly risky to digitize your own signature and use it for your own form letters. If someone wants to forge your signature, they're going to forge your signature, but it's a felony no matter how you slice it, and the small matter of who digitized it is not likely to bear very heavily on the matter. I'm no lawyer, but I just don't think that a great deal of paranoia is in order in a case like this. As the original poster pointed out, it saves them lots of time and money to be able to print the signature on the page with PostScript instead of a second pass through a photocopier, and forgery is, let's say, a minor issue, not a non-issue. -- Glenn Reid RightBrain Software glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us NeXT/PostScript developers ..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn 415-851-1785 (fax 851-1470)
roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) (02/26/91)
stanley@phoenix.com (John Stanley) writes: > If they are good enough, how do you tell a digitized signature from a > Xerox copy of a real one? Laser printers are, after all, fancy copy > machines. If the signature is obviously digitized, then it is of no value, > as the customer will see that and know you couldn't even be bothered to > sign the original. And yet, faxed signatures seem to bear legal weight. I've dealt with lots of vendors who would not ship goods on a verbal PO, but were happy to with a faxed one (a Purchase Order is technically a legally binding contract which obligates us to pay for the specified goods). A faxed signature is obviously digitized, yet nobody seems to mind. It wouldn't be very hard for me to concoct a bitmap image of a fake PO with a digitized signature of our controller using MacPaint or some such and send it off with a fax modem in the Mac on my desk. This scares me, as I suspect that most people who routinely send and receive signed legal documents have no idea how easy they are to forge. -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu -OR- {att,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy "Arcane? Did you say arcane? It wouldn't be Unix if it wasn't arcane!"
rodney@sun.ipl.rpi.edu (Rodney Peck II) (02/26/91)
> And yet, faxed signatures seem to bear legal weight. I've dealt >with lots of vendors who would not ship goods on a verbal PO, but were happy >to with a faxed one (a Purchase Order is technically a legally binding >contract which obligates us to pay for the specified goods). Please --- not to pick on this one person, but this has gotten way off from the topic of postscript and bear little useful information for comp.lang.postscript. There are plenty of other places to talk about the ramifications of digitized signatures. And they talk about them until they are blue in the face in those groups. There have been about twenty messages of this sort so far, and I think that we either get the point or don't care. Thank you -- Rodney
pkr@media01.UUCP (Peter Kriens) (02/27/91)
Great idea to have signatures in Postscript! One of my colleagues programmed his signature in the local laserwriter so that he could print his weekly hour report all in once. I am not sure he was as enthousiastic after he found his signature on a 'promis' note that promissed that he would buy ice cream for the complete company... I must say that he did as promised... Peter Kriens