johnm@spudge.UUCP (John Munsch) (05/04/91)
These days there is no shortage of Type 1 fonts that can be downloaded from BBS's every time you turn around. Some of the ones I've gotten that have the same names as Adobe faces are: Arnold Boecklin Bodoni Brush Script Cooper (Black) FrizQuadrata Goudy Old Style New Baskerville News-Gothic Optima Parisian Peignot Present-Script Now personally I could care less if they use the same name as a commercial font. Adobe might care, but I don't. I do care if any of these fonts is pirated though. Short of getting the Adobe font and comparing the two files (which is not practical) is there any way to tell if these are original works or not? John Munsch P.S. I didn't bother listing a Palatino I have that is sooooo bad that I had no question whether or not it was pirated.
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) (05/07/91)
johnm@spudge.UUCP (John Munsch) writes: > These days there is no shortage of Type 1 fonts that can be downloaded from > BBS's every time you turn around. Some of the ones I've gotten that have > the same names as Adobe faces are: [list deleted] > Now personally I could care less if they use the same name as a commercial > font. Adobe might care, but I don't. I do care if any of these fonts is > pirated though. Short of getting the Adobe font and comparing the two > files (which is not practical) is there any way to tell if these are > original works or not? Trouble is, there are two parts to the protection: (a) trademark on the name and (b) copyright on the program. Some (not all) of the names you listed are trademarks, so if you're finding fonts with those names, chances are very high it's a stolen font. The way to find out whether the font program is pirated involves comparison of the code, which is tedious... I'm assuming that a pirate would be smart enough to take out the copyright notices. You might start by checking the unique-id values between your fonts and the licensed ones (e.g., from Adobe) - a match would be awfully suspicious. At this point, it seems everybody's gonna have to figure out his own rules for how to decide that a font on a BBS is "over the line". I won't try to tell you how you should decide it, but I'll tell you how I approach it: I won't take a font which has a name matching one I know to be trademarked, because I know the font at least violates the letter of the trademark law and to me, certainly violates the spirit of fairness. I feel pretty strongly about that. When I license a font from a legitimate source (one which has licensed the trademark and the artwork), I have some reason to think the designer gets at least a little bit of the result. It may be a pittance, but it's better than nothing, and it encourages (at least symbol- ically) the creation of new fonts rather than the zero-innovation copying of existing work. A little further along that line of thinking, I won't buy a license to a "knock-off" font under a different name (such as the various perversions of Palatino), even where it's legitimate under current law. Same reason as above, especially because I'm paying money for the license: I want the money going to "the right place." (This applies to obviously unique designs, like Palatino, but not to the various "revival" families like Caslon, Garamond, and such, where *all* the designs are attempts to re- capture the essence of a very old piece of work.) -- Dick Dunn rcd@ico.isc.com -or- ico!rcd Boulder, CO (303)449-2870 ...If you plant ice, you're gonna harvest wind.
johnm@spudge.UUCP (John Munsch) (05/09/91)
In article <1991May6.225858.5945@ico.isc.com> rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes: >Trouble is, there are two parts to the protection: (a) trademark on the >name and (b) copyright on the program. Some (not all) of the names you >listed are trademarks, so if you're finding fonts with those names, >chances are very high it's a stolen font. The way to find out whether the >font program is pirated involves comparison of the code, which is tedious... >I'm assuming that a pirate would be smart enough to take out the copyright >notices. You might start by checking the unique-id values between your >fonts and the licensed ones (e.g., from Adobe) - a match would be awfully >suspicious. This is not a flame against Dick Dunn but against all the people who didn't bother to read what I said in my original posting. I distinctly said in my original posting that comparing to the actual fonts from Adobe was out of the question. If I had the real fonts (all $1900 worth according to my latest Adobe catalog) I wouldn't be looking at PD fonts... would I! And yet, it has been suggested to me that I compare the file sizes, compare font IDs, and even print out samples of each at 72 pt. and compare the outlines! No kidding, I think I could have discerned that all by myself. What I want to know is if there is a way to check WITHOUT owning the typefaces from Adobe to compare. I could really care less about the issue of names of fonts, and I know that people can legally create fonts that "look" like other fonts, but I don't want fonts that are just stolen from Adobe (or whomever). If these fonts that I have are ones that individuals have created independently I want to use them, otherwise I'm sure I can do without. John Munsch
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) (05/10/91)
johnm@spudge.UUCP (John Munsch) writes: > rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes: > >[ramble about comparisons] > >...You might start by checking the unique-id values between your > >fonts and the licensed ones (e.g., from Adobe) - a match would be awfully > >suspicious. What I had intended here--but neglected to say (I seem to have assumed my posting had a telepathic sidebar!)--is that those of us who have licenses to some of the Adobe versions might be able to offer bits of info to help John. > This is not a flame against Dick Dunn but against all the people who didn't > bother to read what I said in my original posting. > I distinctly said in my original posting that comparing to the actual fonts > from Adobe was out of the question. If I had the real fonts (all $1900 > worth according to my latest Adobe catalog) I wouldn't be looking at PD > fonts... would I! And yet, it has been suggested to me that I compare the > file sizes, compare font IDs, and even print out samples of each at 72 pt. > and compare the outlines! You want to know whether a program you have is equivalent to a program you don't have, and you want to make the comparison without any information about the program you don't have. That doesn't leave much--the only hope is that you can find something in the program you have which could only have been put there by (say) Adobe [or the creator of the original font]. > No kidding, I think I could have discerned that all by myself. What I want > to know is if there is a way to check WITHOUT owning the typefaces from > Adobe to compare. I assumed you understood the nature of Type 1 fonts--that they're just pro- grams, and (in theory) anyone can write one. Therefore, suppose that a thief has a font program F. Suppose there is some unique characteristic of that font program which would identify it as having been created by Adobe-- the thief just creates F' which is the same as F with the distinguishing characteristic removed. Any distinguishing characteristic which becomes known can probably be removed without much trouble. If Adobe puts some sort of hidden marker inside a font program, they're unlikely to tell the world about it, since that just makes it easy to find and remove it. Am I missing something here? If we have two programs, A and B, and we want to know whether A and B are "essentially the same" without examining either B or its output, we're stuck looking for some marker in A that could only have been put there by the author of B. The marker is either inci- dental (has no effect on output), in which case it can be removed, or it's essential (affects output), in which case something else can be substituted to produce nearly-identical output. A smart thief won't leave a marker in the code unless he doesn't know it's there. If he doesn't know it's there, how are we to know? -- Dick Dunn rcd@ico.isc.com -or- ico!rcd Boulder, CO (303)449-2870 ...If you plant ice, you're gonna harvest wind.
matoh@sssab.se (Mats Ohrman) (05/10/91)
johnm@spudge.UUCP (John Munsch) writes: >I distinctly said in my original posting that comparing to the actual fonts >from Adobe was out of the question. If I had the real fonts (all $1900 >worth according to my latest Adobe catalog) I wouldn't be looking at PD >fonts... would I! And yet, it has been suggested to me that I compare the >file sizes, compare font IDs, and even print out samples of each at 72 pt. >and compare the outlines! >No kidding, I think I could have discerned that all by myself. What I want >to know is if there is a way to check WITHOUT owning the typefaces from >Adobe to compare. This is how you may do it on a Mac: 1) Make a document using the font. 2) Print the document to a file, not the printer. (The old cmd-f trick). 3) Open the output file. 4) Look for the "%%BeginFont:" comment that matches the font's name. 5) Look for an Adobe "(c)" in the comments directly below. /mats -- _ Mats Ohrman Scandinavian System Support AB E-mail: matoh@sssab.se Box 535 _ Telephone: +46 13 11 16 60 581 06 Linkoping, Sweden Telefax: +46 13 11 51 93