manson@giza.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bob Manson) (01/29/91)
I usually don't do this, but I feel frotzed today. Please read the entire posting before replying. In article <742@caslon.cs.arizona.edu> dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave P. Schaumann) writes: >Arrrg!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! (scream from "Another Brick in the Wall part III") Sorry about that. I feel a tiny small bit better. I really need some cookies & warm milk right now. >to, and generally use 3 different keyboards: > My Amiga at home, and the schools Wyse75's and Mac's. I use 6-7 keyboards per week. HP, Sun, VT-100, H19, Decstation, 3b1, Synertek KTM 2/80...yes, I really do use that many on a weekly basis. >Each one has a different keyboard. Of course, all the alpha-numeric keys >are in the same place, but all the special keys: escape, control (on the >Mac), delete, etc. are in a different place. It's enough to drive me >buggledy-boo. None of the ones I listed have ESC, CTRL, SHIFTLOCK, DELETE, BACKSPACE in the same places. None of them (except possibly the Synertek) have them all in reasonable places. Don't give me this shit about how "you just have to get used to it". I've used computer keyboards for 10 years now, since I was 13. I've found reasonable arrangements, and I've found stupid arrangements. HP, PUTTING THE FUCKING ESCAPE KEY DOWN IN THE LOWER LEFT-HAND CORNER OF THE KEYBOARD IS STUPID!! I just gave up on ESC entirely. Use CTRL-[. At least [ is mostly in the same place. ESC should be in the upper left hand key position next to the Q, but it never is. (I use emacs, flames to /dev/null please.) A double-sized control key needs to be next to the A. Caps lock should be way on the right hand side of the keyboard where I'll never ever hit it for any reason. Tab should be next to the 1, or I'll even settle for to the left of the Esc. Backspace needs to be double size and next to the = (top row, last key, I'm on an HP right now). As I recall, a Tektronix 4105 came reasonably close to these requirements...and the Synertek keyboard is too. (Then again, the Synertek is missing some keys. Notably, curly braces. So I wrote a C compiler once that used brackets instead of braces.... :-) Ok, so people will immediately argue with me. Don't bother, as I don't care what keyboard arrangement you like, and you probably don't care what keyboard arrangement I like. The point is, no two people can agree on how a keyboard should be arranged. The solution: (well, I see two): either a) provide several different keyboards for a machine (gee, what a NOVEL idea! :-) or b) get smart and ue available technology to give us a Keyboard Construction Kit. It's actually pretty feasable, and would make many of us very happy...just a blank keyboard with billions of empty slots, a whole lot of keys, and some sort of programming device. Wanna make some money? That'd be a great way... >Is anyone working on a standard keyboard layout? Any such group is candidate >for immediate saint-hood. Especially if they are given heavy artillery to >enforce usage. There are about 15,000,000 "standard keyboard layouts". And they all suck worse than HP's [which is probably a standard. BTW, HP's keyboard also is known to cause CTS (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome) more often than other keyboards]. Just ask a DEC salesperson, who will cheerfully tell you that putting ESC as F12 (way up in BFE) is a standard. Look, people, lose the god-dammed function keys. Nobody in their right mind that uses more than one keyboard (most programmers) uses the darned things. And the keypad. This HP thing (can you tell I hate HP? Huh, huh? Shoot the bastards, I always say) has more keys on it than all the other keyboards put together, but I only use the ones that God intended you to use (with the exception of DEL/ESC, which is in such a fucking brain-damaged position...right next to the left shift key. If you like it there, good for you. I don't-I've used close to 20 keyboards, and the HP is the ONLY ONE with ESC there.) Remapping the keys under X11 ain't a solution; I don't use X11 all, or even most of the time. (Some of the machines I use don't run it either). It just makes things worse-what happens when I'm not running under X? Who wants to make some money? Start a company making replacement keyboards for HP, DEC, etc...nobody I know likes the HP keyboard, nor the DEC. Making a keyboard that wasn't designed to piss off everyone would make you a messiah. Whew. I feel a little better. I'll feel a lot better when I get a decent keyboard. I pray mightly that someone is listening...but I don't think so. I just saw an HP X terminal that had a control key below the left shift key. Bastards. Bob manson@cis.ohio-state.edu
n8243274@unicorn.cc.wwu.edu (steven l. odegard) (01/29/91)
Testy subject here. I agree with manson in article
<87723@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> with the following:
\escape\ (^[) should be upper left, immediately left of \Q\.
\control\ should be double size immediately left of \A\.
\tab\ (^I) should be immediately left of \1\ or \escape\.
\backsapce\ (^H) should be upper right, immediately left of \=\.
but I feel that
\caps_lock\ should be immediately left of \control\. It'll never be
hit there by mistake either.
There should be a duplicate \control\ immediately over the right
\shift\, under \return\. [This used to be standard].
\return\ should be triple or quadruple size immediately right of \"'\.
\shift\ keys should be lowered from the bottom row of keys to be
next to the space bar (I taught myself to type on a mechanical
typewriter).
The entire QWERTY arrangement needs to be overhauled. I taught myself
Dvorak, but not enough machines I am required to use are capable of being
switched over. Any manufacturer who has the insight to include such a
switch should receive subsidy from the Powers that Be.
I also agree with Manson about function keys, but people want them, so
they get them. Okay, the AT style keyboard is best, having the function
keys in arrays of four spaced above the number keys. With practice,
they can be reached with the fingers and be 'touch-typed' almost like
playing a piano.
Nobody knows what do do with \+=\, \~`\, \|\\, \del\, or the brackets and
curly braces; they end up everywhere. Some keyboards place the right
bracket as shifted and the left bracket as unshifted, while others place
two keys \{[\ and \}]\, which I prefer. I suppose the jury is still out
about this. Where sholuld the \break\ key be placed? Please, not so close
to backs
--
--SLO 8243274@wwu.edu uw-beaver!wwu.edu!8243274 n8243274@unicorn.wwu.edubob@MorningStar.Com (Bob Sutterfield) (01/29/91)
In article <742@caslon.cs.arizona.edu> dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave P. Schaumann) writes:
Is anyone working on a standard keyboard layout? Any such group is
candidate for immediate saint-hood. Especially if they are given
heavy artillery to enforce usage.
If you get what you're asking for, you may find that you don't really
want it. That's how the layout for the DEC LK201 was hatched in some
ISO committee. As some sage put it: "The LK201 layout is an
international standard. That means the French can hate it as much as
we do."
I hate to think what ISO-standard artillery might look like :-)pmk@craycos.com (Peter Klausler) (01/29/91)
In article <87723@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> manson@giza.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bob Manson) writes: >I use 6-7 keyboards per week. HP, Sun, VT-100, H19, Decstation, 3b1, >Synertek KTM 2/80...yes, I really do use that many on a weekly basis. > > ... > >There are about 15,000,000 "standard keyboard layouts". And they all >suck worse than HP's [which is probably a standard. BTW, HP's keyboard >also is known to cause CTS (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome) more often than >other keyboards]. Just ask a DEC salesperson, who will cheerfully tell >you that putting ESC as F12 (way up in BFE) is a standard. > >Look, people, lose the god-dammed function keys. Nobody in their right >mind that uses more than one keyboard (most programmers) uses the >darned things. And the keypad. This HP thing (can you tell I hate HP? >Huh, huh? Shoot the bastards, I always say) has more keys on it than >all the other keyboards put together, but I only use the ones that God >intended you to use (with the exception of DEL/ESC, which is in such a >fucking brain-damaged position...right next to the left shift key. If >you like it there, good for you. I don't-I've used close to 20 >keyboards, and the HP is the ONLY ONE with ESC there.) I'm still trying, after eighteen months, to get used to this hideous Type-4` keyboard from Sun. Whoever decided to put a tiny, misplaced RETURN key on this` monstrosity to the right of a tilde/backquote key should be flogged into a` uniform pile of offal and mercilessly flushed from the gene pool. The only` thing that keeps a Type-4 victim sane is the ability to put` PS2='Sun SUCKS! Please type a backquote: ' in one's .profile, so that every time one ends a command with an inadvertent` backquote, this twisted, bizarre machine will commisserate with you. This is` usually sufficient to prevent me from lashing out and destroying my doomed` workstation or commissioning terrible hate crimes against its designers.` (I did have fun during a Sun salescritter presentation here at CCC, bringing` my battered Type-4 keyboard to the meeting and raving like a madman about it.` I liked their reaction to my asking "Did you consult any UNIX users when this` keyboard was designed?")`
manson@giza.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bob Manson) (01/29/91)
In article <1991Jan28.183530.17856@unicorn.cc.wwu.edu> n8243274@unicorn.cc.wwu.edu (steven l. odegard) writes: >Testy subject here. I agree with manson in article ><87723@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> with the following: Yep. Lots of arguments about where the keys should go. I guess the real point of my article was that a keyboard that could be reprogrammed & with movable keys,or a wide choice of keyboards, would please everyone. It's not that much more expensive to offer several keyboards; it's just sloth on the part of the manufacturers. >but I feel that > \caps_lock\ should be immediately left of \control\. It'll never be > hit there by mistake either. Well, as long as the control key is double-size. The way it is on this HP thing it is only single size, with the caps lock right next to it; I tend to hit it accidentially from time to time (not hard to do). > \shift\ keys should be lowered from the bottom row of keys to be > next to the space bar (I taught myself to type on a mechanical This definitely needs to be an option, although I think a lot of people would yell at you a lot if this were the default. Possibly if the manufacturers don't want to produce reprogrammable/changeable keyboards they could have 5-6 options available, one being the "mechanical typewriter" option. >The entire QWERTY arrangement needs to be overhauled. I taught myself >Dvorak, but not enough machines I am required to use are capable of being Decidedly. Again, an option could be Dvorak, with (hopefully) ONE standard arrangement for the keys. But that's too much to ask. My pet peeve with this subject is that a lot of people complain, but no one tries to do anything about it. Think about sending a letter to the company that makes your most hated/liked keyboard, and tell them why. >switched over. Any manufacturer who has the insight to include such a >switch should receive subsidy from the Powers that Be. Most computers I have used have a detachable keyboard. This isn't a problem-if they'd make different keyboards. They don't. I'm not talking so much about home machines as I am workstations. If I spend $6,000 on a computer, I expect to get my choice of keyboards...If you can get a workstation with an IBM PC keyboard connector, you're a lot better off, but most workstations have a nonstandard keyboard connector. Maybe that's where the standardization effort needs to go. >Nobody knows what do do with \+=\, \~`\, \|\\, \del\, or the brackets and >curly braces; they end up everywhere. Strangely enough, this doesn't bother me (except for del/backspace) as long as they don't add keys. Whoever is was at Sun that added that extra key next to return should be soundly beaten with a rubber truncheon. But I can deal with them moving around, because I don't use them as often as I use escape/control/delete. If the keyboard folks are listening (they aren't, but I have sent letters to companies about this in the past): I make my living by typing on a computer. Changing the keyboard around is painful for me, as it causes undue stress & frustration in getting my work done. I use several different machines daily, and I'd really like to see control/escape/delete end up in about the same place on every machine, and have them be in resasonable places. I don't know why this is difficult, except that you never ask programmers, you ask marketing people or do some goofy study that shows that key X belongs here (which is usually the most awkward place). >about this. Where sholuld the \break\ key be placed? Please, not so close >to backs Break should be where it is on an HP, on the function key row (if you insist on putting function keys on) in place of where many manufacturers put escape. Hitting break usually has horrible consequences, and isn't much used on a workstation, so why put it where it can be struck easily? Bob manson@cis.ohio-state.edu
herrickd@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (daniel lance herrick) (02/02/91)
In article <prk.665225992@winnie>, prk@planet.bt.co.uk (Peter Knight) writes: > All this talk of standard keyboards reminds me of the mess up around > telephone and calculator keyboards. > > Back in the mists of time, the CCITT, the telecoms standards body, > set a standard layout for telephone keypads, with '1' at the top-left. > > When pocket calculators came into existance, they seemed to standardise > on a keyboard with '1' at the bottom-left, ie ignoring the CCITT standard. > CCITT (or AT&T) ignored the long standing arrangement on mechanical ten key calculators, which had the one key near the zero key, and invented a new conflicting arrangement that put the nine key near the oh key. The calculators, with a lever to pull to work the works, predate the transistor and all thought about non-rotary "dialing". The new, electronic, calculator manufacturers stuck with the sensible precedent. dan herrick herrickd@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
quirk@quokka.rtp.dg.com (Peter Quirk) (02/02/91)
The rearrangement of the alphabetical keys on a foreign keyboard is nothing compared to the placement of the special characters used in UNIX. For example, the right curly bracket /}/ is located in the third quadrant of the third key to the right of the /L/ on the French-Canadian 102-key PC-AT keyboard, while it's on the front of the same key on the Spanish keyboard (ALT-L combination instead of ALT-GR combination?), and it's on the front of the zero key on the Norwegian keyboard. I can't find it at all on the Italian or Swiss keyboard (have to use a digraph), while it's located on the front of the +/= key on the French keyboard. It's all very well to complain about placement of keys, but the basic problem is that there aren't enough keys on any keyboards. Too many keys are doing double and triple duty. Also, while the QWERTY keyboard is not well-designed for English letter frequencies, any design that is better will be wrong for other languages. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Peter Quirk Internet: quirk@quokka.webo.dg.com Data General Corporation Phone: +1 (508)898 4679 3400 Computer Drive Fax: +1 (508)898 2684 Westboro, MA, USA 01581
kkim@plains.NoDak.edu (kyongsok kim) (02/06/91)
:scjones@thor.UUCP (Larry Jones) writes:
:>I can only
:>presume that noone on the committee is a touch typist, since
I heard a rumor about setting up korean standard keyboard about 20 years
ago. Except one or two, none of the committee members could touch type
and fairly many virtually never typed ...
Probably we should speak up requesting that at least half of the
committee members should be able to touch type...
k kim