[rec.aviation] SR71 to be retired October 1st.

ferguson@x102c.harris-atd.com (ferguson ct 71078) (03/10/89)

In article <6782@super.ORG> mjt@super.UUCP (Michael J. Tighe) writes:
>In article <13987@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> david@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (David Robinson) writes:
>>My dates may be wrong (so please don't flame me) but I was told once
>>that the SR-71 first flew in 1962 and was known to the public until 1968.
>>An ex roommate's father who was an Air Force mechanic at the time  said that the
>>flight line was always cleared on landing (always at night with no lights)
>>and as soon as it stopped a tarp was thrown over it.  So secret that he
>>had no idea of what type of plane it was (i.e. boomer or recon).
>>
>This is not a flame. Lyndon Johnson leaked the existence of the A-12, (which 
>he called the A-11) on February 29, 1964. Then on July 24, 1964 he leaked
>the existence of the RS-71, (which he called the SR-71), a plane dedicated
>to recon.
>
>Ironically, when LBJ leaked the A-12, he used photos of the YF-12a, serial
>number 60-6934. The speed records were on May 1, 1965, so it was clearly
>in the public by then.
>-- 
>-------------
>Michael Tighe
>internet: mjt@super.org
>   uunet: ...!uunet!super!mjt



Well, LBJ didn't exactly "leak" the existence of the blackbird -- he
announced it at a press conference!  He announced it as the A-11 and
it was left unclear whether it was a fighter or recon.  The plane was
originally intended as a recon plane but after Gary Powers got shot
down over USSR and JFK promised no more overflights, the builders of
the plane had political dilemma.  They solved it by calling the plane
a fighter even though it was clearly intended as a recon plane.  There
were abortive attempts to hang missles on it and reclassify it as the
YF-12A but, personally speaking, I don't think these efforts were
serious -- I believe they were just political damage control efforts.

The politics of LBJ's announcement were interesting.  Keep in mind the
times: JFK had been assasinated four months earlier, the nation was
still in shock, and there was an election in nine months.  Also, the
"Supersonic Transport race" was in progress.  The SST race was like
the "space race" with the Russians except the competition was Great
Britain, France, and others who were probably considered more
formidable competitors.  The perception at the time was that the US
was BEHIND in the SST race (seems like the US was behind in everything
about that time).  To make matters worse, the US was planning to build
a mach 3 SST whereas the rest of the world was planning mach 2.5 SSTs.
It was "common knowledge" that mach 3 put the US at a schedule
disadvantage since such speeds required stainless steel or titanium
aircraft and there had never been a titanium aircraft built before.
Basic titanium metallurgy techniques were a mystery.

So LBJ's announcement of the blackbird was laden with political
objectives:  

  o  He wanted to divert national attention from the JFK assasination
     and convey a sense of "the world marches on".

  o  He wanted to get some attention ("Hey, there's a new president in
     town.  Look at me for cripes sake!").  After all, 1964 was an
     election year.

  o  He wanted to make it know that (Oh, by the way) the blackbird was
     made of titanium and was already in flight testing

Of course LBJ couldn't just come right out and say all that so he said
he was making the blackbird public for the safety of airline pilots
flying over Edwards who would no doubt be startled by its sighting.
The only photo of the plane released to the press was a side view and
there was considerable speculation as to its configuration, fuel load,
weapons, etc.  Some months later, techies from the various SST
contractors were allowed to visit Lockheed's "Skunk Works" to get the
low-down on titanium technology, etc.  The plan worked -- the US was
henceforth perceived as the leader in the SST race and the "we're
ahead technology-wise" feeling probably helped LBJ in the '64
election.  Politics and technology is a strange mixture.

Chuck Ferguson             Harris Government Information Systems Division
(407) 984-6010             MS: W1/7732  PO Box 98000  Melbourne, FL 32902
Internet:                  ferguson@cobra@trantor.harris-atd.com
uunet:                     uunet!x102a!x102c!ferguson

mcd@iconsys.UUCP (Mark Dakins) (03/10/89)

In article <3247@pixar.UUCP> good@pixar.uucp writes:
>In article <524@gonzo.UUCP> daveb@gonzo.UUCP (Dave Brower) writes:
|
|[quote from poorly-written "Chronicle" item about retirement of the
|SR-71 deleted.  They even still believe that 85,000 foot stuff.]
|
|:So, the announcement leads me to suspect any combination of the
|:following:
|:
|:	* The SR-71 replacement is ready to go, but so black no one
|:	  is supposed to know.  Conspiracy theorists take note.
|
|This one gets my vote.  In fact, I think it really could be "Aurora",
|already reported as operational in -- get this -- "Popular Mechanics".
|The article was pretty plausible.  It's supposed to be a Mach 5+ plane
|which is launched and retrieved from flying C-5's.  I know.  I thought
|about it and I convinced myself it could be done, and cleverly, too.
|
|Random points:

 (Arguments the Aurura may exist and be operational deleted)

Well, I won't disagree with Craig's point but, with respect to
the SR-71 having been retired; the following is a quote from
AW&ST March 6, 1989 in the "Industry Observer" feature
on page 13 under the headline "High Flyers".

"Air Force Lockheed SR-71 reconnaissance aircraft are making
high-altitude, high-speed, intelligence gathering flights over
the Barents Sea near the Soviet Union's Kola Peninsula. The Soviets
conduct extensive naval activity in the area. The SR-71s have
been overflying Spitsbergen Island, Norway, at altitudes above
70,000 ft."

Of course, the fact that this item was published doesn't
mean that the flights are occuring or that if they are that
the aircraft is the SR-71. You will note that the item is
unattributed. May be true or may not be. May be a leak
or an "leak" (intentionally accidental) or a release
(although I have never heard of this kind of info being
offically released.)

The wizard war is a strange game.

-- 
UUCP:	 uunet!iconsys!mcd		Mark Dakins, Icon International
ARPANET: iconsys!mcd@uunet.uu.net	774 South 400 East, Orem, UT.

roberts@cognos.uucp (Robert Stanley) (03/11/89)

In article <1659@trantor.harris-atd.com> mjt@super.UUCP (Michael J. Tighe) writes:

> ...  To make matters worse, the US was planning to build
> a mach 3 SST whereas the rest of the world was planning mach 2.5 SSTs.
> It was "common knowledge" that mach 3 put the US at a schedule
> disadvantage since such speeds required stainless steel or titanium
> aircraft and there had never been a titanium aircraft built before.
> Basic titanium metallurgy techniques were a mystery.

This doesn't ring altogether true.  I agree that the limiting mach on
Concorde was dictated by the choice of alloys, which were chosen on the
grounds of practicality; there were already a great many unknowns.
However, one of the reasons that Boeing put forward their SST proposal was
surely because they had exactly the experience that was needed.  The XB-70
(Valkyrie) was the pioneer in this respect, and didn't it make extensive
use of epoxy-bonded, honey-comb titanium sandwich?

In the same time-frame, Lockheed built the A11 (where this thread
started!) with Titanium as the primary skin material.  Several interviews
with Kelly have described at length the problems they went through, ranging
from discovering that cadmium plating on tools was a disaster, through to
developing a formal recording process for every sheet rolled that included
such information as the grain direction!  Part of developing the necessary
titanium-production infrastructure included building the (then) largest
cold forging press in the country (250,000 tons pressure, from memory).

The design process for the A11 began in the '50s, although I forget exactly
the date that manufacturing started.  However, experiments had already been
conducted to prove that titanium technology was workable before Lockheed
committed to building the aircraft.  As an aside, I believe that stainless
steel has always suffered from being too dense, and that is what has
excluded it from consideration, rather than the difficulty of working the
material.

There was in fact an absolute wealth of knowledge on the subject in the
early '60s, although there is a real chance that much of this came under
various levels of classification.  What was lacking was any way to reduce
the cost of working with such a difficult material as titanium, and I
believe that still to be the case.  The very properties that make it so
interesting as a structural material in high-speed aircraft (low creep,
high tensile strength, low thermal conductivity) are the same properties
that make it fiendishly difficult to work.

Caveat: I was an aero-engineering student in the '60s, but I have never
	worked in the aircraft manufacturing industry.  Memory is fallible.

Robert_S
-- 
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Compuserve: 76174,3024		      Ottawa, Ontario  K1G 3Z4, CANADA
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henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (03/14/89)

In article <5527@cognos.UUCP> roberts@cognos.UUCP (Robert Stanley) writes:
>However, one of the reasons that Boeing put forward their SST proposal was
>surely because they had exactly the experience that was needed.  The XB-70
>(Valkyrie) was the pioneer in this respect, and didn't it make extensive
>use of epoxy-bonded, honey-comb titanium sandwich?

The XB-70 used brazed stainless-steel honeycomb sandwich, actually, with
some titanium in the forward fuselage.  It was built by North American, 
incidentally, not Boeing, although some of the technology may have been
common property.

>In the same time-frame, Lockheed built the A11 (where this thread
>started!) with Titanium as the primary skin material...

A-12, please.  "A-11" was another of LBJ's verbal typos.

>... As an aside, I believe that stainless
>steel has always suffered from being too dense, and that is what has
>excluded it from consideration, rather than the difficulty of working the
>material.

Stainless steel *is* heavy, although it's been successfully used in some
experimental aircraft (notably the X-15).  The stainless-steel honeycomb
sandwich panels used in the XB-70 would be ideal for high-speed aircraft,
as they are light, they are strong and rigid at high temperatures, and
incidentally they are moderately good thermal insulators, but they are
*horrendously* expensive.  The cost of the first XB-70 exceeded the
aircraft's weight in gold, and this was a half-million-pound aircraft.
-- 
Welcome to Mars!  Your         |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
passport and visa, comrade?    | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (03/14/89)

In article <5527@cognos.UUCP>, roberts@cognos.uucp (Robert Stanley) writes:
> In article <1659@trantor.harris-atd.com> mjt@super.UUCP (Michael J. Tighe) writes:
> 
> > ...  To make matters worse, the US was planning to build
> > a mach 3 SST whereas the rest of the world was planning mach 2.5 SSTs.
> > It was "common knowledge" that mach 3 put the US at a schedule
> > disadvantage since such speeds required stainless steel or titanium
> > aircraft and there had never been a titanium aircraft built before.
> 
> This doesn't ring altogether true.  I agree that the limiting mach on
> Concorde was dictated by the choice of alloys, which were chosen on the
> grounds of practicality; there were already a great many unknowns.
> However, one of the reasons that Boeing put forward their SST proposal was
> surely because they had exactly the experience that was needed.  The XB-70
> (Valkyrie) was the pioneer in this respect, and didn't it make extensive
> use of epoxy-bonded, honey-comb titanium sandwich?

No.  It used stainless steel in its structure. (Honeycomb.)

Interesting about Boeing, especially since North American (now Rockwell)
built the XB-70.

Don't forget that North American and Lockheed both had SST designs on the
boards at the same time Boeing did.

jdm@gssc.UUCP (John D. Miller) (03/15/89)

In article <5527@cognos.UUCP> roberts@cognos.UUCP (Robert Stanley) writes:
>In article <1659@trantor.harris-atd.com> mjt@super.UUCP (Michael J. Tighe) writes:
>
>However, one of the reasons that Boeing put forward their SST proposal was
>surely because they had exactly the experience that was needed.  The XB-70
>(Valkyrie) was the pioneer in this respect, and didn't it make extensive
>use of epoxy-bonded, honey-comb titanium sandwich?

North American built the XB-70s, not Boeing.  That bird gets MY vote
for most beautiful airplane ever.  It was made of honeycomb
stainless-steel (!) which was a new and complicated process, to be
sure.  From the WINGS special on the Discovery Channel (I am tapeing
all of the "Great Planes" series), when you divide the development cost
over the number of flights the two Valkyries made, it comes to about
$11 million per flight.  In 1964 dollars.  It was the biggest plane
built, at the time.  The huge delta wing is still the largest control
surface ever put on a plane.

-- jdm
-- 
...!{tektronix!verdix}!sequent!gssc!jdm                John David Miller
(503) 641-2200                                         Graphic Software Systems
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harmons@sting.gwd.tek.com (Harmon Sommer) (03/18/89)

>ahead technology-wise" feeling probably helped LBJ in the '64
>election.  Politics and technology is a strange mixture.

As I recall the big issue in '64 was Viet Nam. They told me if I voted
for Goldwater the U.S. would bomb Hanoi. So I did and sure enough, we did.

ferguson@x102c.harris-atd.com (ferguson ct 71078) (03/23/89)

In article <11153@tekecs.GWD.TEK.COM> harmons@sting.UUCP (Harmon Sommer) writes:
>
>
>>ahead technology-wise" feeling probably helped LBJ in the '64
>>election.  Politics and technology is a strange mixture.
>
>As I recall the big issue in '64 was Viet Nam. They told me if I voted
>for Goldwater the U.S. would bomb Hanoi. So I did and sure enough, we did.


I'm no history expert but as I recall the congress passed the Gulf of
Tonkin resolution and the Vietnam war was a dead issue as far as the
election was concerned.  By passing the resolution, both political
parties were on record as favoring continuing the involvement.
Vietnam did become the major issue of the '68 election and sunk
Humphrey's candidacy.

Chuck Ferguson             Harris Government Information Systems Division
(407) 984-6010             MS: W1/7732  PO Box 98000  Melbourne, FL 32902
Internet:                  ferguson@cobra@trantor.harris-atd.com
uunet:                     uunet!x102a!x102c!ferguson