chip@t4test.UUCP (Chip Rosenthal) (04/06/84)
==============================================================
SUMMARY
A new newsgroup, net.unix-novices, should be creat-
ed for the discussion of Unix and Unix related to-
pics among fairly new Unix users. Such discussion
currently does not exist, probably because newco-
mers do not feel comfortable posting to any of the
existing newsgroups. Such a newsgroup would cer-
tainly be an asset to this net.
I'd like to propose a new newsgroup. This newsgroup
would be used for fairly new Unix programmers to ask ques-
tions and exchange ideas. A possible name for this news-
group is "net.unix-novices". I think that the scope of it
should extend beyond just the Unix operating system and into
areas such as uucp and c as well.
For the most part, discussions in groups such as
net.unix and net.lang.c are between people who have had a
fair deal of experience working under Unix. You don't see a
lot of questions from people who haven't become experts in
this. This is for one of two reasons:
o Either there are no Unix novices on the network, or
they don't care.
o Unix novices are intimidated when it comes to placing
fairly simple questions and requests in a group where
discussion about a lot of esoteric topics is happening.
I tend to think that the first case isn't true, and the
reason we don't see much discussion from novices is because
there isn't a place where they would feel comfortable post-
ing technical questions.
This network provides an important service to the
member sites. More importantly than the entertainment fac-
tor, I believe it has the great potential to inform and edu-
cate the users. A Unix novices' newsgroup would be a great
asset to this aspect of the net.
Usually a new newsgroup is created because traffic in
other groups merits it. The net has discovered many a time
that creating a group because it is a "topic which deserves
conversation" is often a failure. However, if the second
reason I pointed out is true (i.e. intimidation), then
creating a Unix novices newsgroup would be a good exception
to this rule.
I believe that all the pieces are there which justify
the creation of this newsgroup. My one question is, "Would
it be used?" I would like to get some discussion on the idea
of such a newsgroup. I would ESPECIALLY like to hear from
some "Unix novices". As a relative newcomer to Unix (about
six months), I see great potential in this.
--
Chip Rosenthal, Intel/Santa Clara
{pur-ee|hplabs|ucbvax!amd70|ogcvax!omsvax}!intelca!t4test!{chip|news}chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) (04/07/84)
I may be wrong on this, but wasn't net.unix created as a place for the
relative novice to ask questions? Is there really a need for a third group
for people to post their messages to (since many are already posted to both
net.unix and net.unix-wizards, why add a third link to it? Think of your
inodes!)
chuq
--
From under the bar at Callahan's: Chuq Von Rospach
{amd70,fortune,hplabs,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui (408) 733-2600 x242
A toast! To absent friends... {clink}lmc@denelcor.UUCP (Lyle McElhaney) (04/08/84)
As will probably be apparant immediately, net.unix was created with exactly the same concept as the proposed unix-novices group just 6-8 months ago. As it is, a lot of the postings go to both groups; this is understand- able, if not optimal, because its sometimes really hard to guess where a particular question should go (espacially for a half-wizard like me :-|). Imagine the traffic with three. The official descriptions of the two existing groups are: net.unix UNIX neophytes group. net.unix-wizards Discussions, bug reports, and fixes on and for UNIX. Not for the weak of heart. If someone is too intimidated to post to net.unix then he has a problem; if the flame level is anything above zero in net.unix, then the net has a problem; but we don't need another gradation of problem difficulty to guess about. -- Lyle McElhaney (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc
alb@alice.UUCP (Adam L. Buchsbaum) (04/09/84)
You obviously have not read the newsgroup list in a long, long time (or bothered to check a list of active groups). net.unix is just what you have proposed, a group for novice UNIX users.
werner@ut-ngp.UUCP (04/09/84)
<food for my pet-bug> to me, it seems understood, that any questions which can get answered locally, should not be propagated world-wide. So talk to your local administrator and get a local group set up named "unix.forum" or something similar (the name should encourage the "shy" person to use it) Better, even, would be to get the phone-number of a person whose job it is to advice users (what, you don't have such a person? demand just may create one, reduce unemployment, get Reagan reelected ....:-) What if he won't, or if local users ignore novices? Kismet, sometimes we are out of luck, because all solutions are too costly. And even though I am very sympathetic, I am concerned that any more increase in traffic will put the net in danger of getting "managed" to reduce cost. Just put yourself into the shoes of the manager who has to make a cost/benefit analysis of USENET. I would seriously doubt that spending money to educate users of another site in the basics of UNIX would be a "plus". On the other hand, it just might entice not to make any efforts to support local novices, i.e. let others support them. User support is expensive and may not fit into the budget of a small shop, but forcing others to pay the (phone)-bills will kill the "goose that lays the golden eggs". Oh, and by the way, when I first read the description I did not know what "neophyte" means - and I suspect that it's not only "us foreigners" who are not familiar with this term ... (hint, hint) werner@ut-ngp (.ARPA and .UUCP via ihnp4)
msimpson@bbncca.ARPA (Mike Simpson) (04/09/84)
***
9 April 1984.
There is an ArpaNet group called 'info-unix' that
discusses just these things (items of interest to new Unix
users). Does anyone know the proper procedure (or IS there one)
for requesting that these items be gatewayed from the ArpaNet? I
know that "info-unix"'s big brother, "unix-wizards", does get
gatewayed, because I read them both.
--
-- cheers,
Mike Simpson, BBN
msimpson@bbn-unix (ARPA)
{decvax,ima,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!msimpson (Usenet)
617-497-2819 (Ma Bell)