peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (03/04/88)
If nothing else, Apple has earned a big black mark for pull-down menus. Due to the Mac's popularity (due, in turn, to being the first kid on the block with affordable windows) *everyone* has been copying those stupid menus. Atari even emulates Apple's one-button paradigm on their 2-button mouse. Amiga at least has a separate menu button. But I still have to drag the mouse halfway across the screen to get at the menus when I hit it. I'd MUCH rather have context-sensitive pop-up menus. But, nooooo. Apple came up with pull-down menus and that's the way it'll be. The CP/M-style-system-calls of the windowing world. And what happened to the "drag a document into a processor" metaphor? Apple came up with something that looked like the Xerox Star, but it sure as hell doesn't work like it. -- -- a clone of Peter (have you hugged your wolf today) da Silva `-_-' -- normally ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter U -- Disclaimer: These aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
ack@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Andy J. Williams) (03/06/88)
In article <730@nuchat.UUCP> peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >If nothing else, Apple has earned a big black mark for pull-down menus. Due >to the Mac's popularity (due, in turn, to being the first kid on the block >with affordable windows) *everyone* has been copying those stupid menus. >Atari even emulates Apple's one-button paradigm on their 2-button mouse. > >Amiga at least has a separate menu button. But I still have to drag the mouse >halfway across the screen to get at the menus when I hit it. I'd MUCH rather >have context-sensitive pop-up menus. But, nooooo. Apple came up with pull-down >menus and that's the way it'll be. The CP/M-style-system-calls of the windowing >world. > Well, the philosophy behind the Mac is to be easy to use. I think that having a centralized, rarely changing, and standard format and place for menus is much easier for the Computer Neophyte to use than having random pop up menus all over the place. But even these are part of the standard ROM now as well as Heirarchical (sp). I think that PullDown menus are the best idea simply because they are always there, should always have the same functions in the relative same place (God, wouldn't it be great if everyone followed the User Interface Guidelines?) and do the relative same things? (Open, Close, Save, Save as..., Cut, Copy... all and more) How would a new user who has no idea what is going on feel about buttons in random places on the screen, never the same, and try to find the one that does what he/she wants? This way everyone knows what the hell is going on and more time can be spent USING the Mac instead of learning applications. >-- >-- a clone of Peter (have you hugged your wolf today) da Silva `-_-' >-- normally ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter U >-- Disclaimer: These aren't mere opinions... these are *values*. -Andy -- Andy J. Williams'90 |_ /| ACK! |BITNET: ack@eleazar.dartmouth.edu HB 509 Dartmouth Clg|\`o_O'Systems|UUCP:{ihnp4,decvax,linus}!dartvax!eleazar!ack Hanover, NH 03775 | ( ) |DISCLAIMER: You better like my opinions, 603-643-7727 | U --ACK! | my mother can beat up your mother...
howard@cpocd2.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) (03/09/88)
In article <8332@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU> ack@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Andy J. Williams) writes: >I think that >having a centralized, rarely changing, and standard format and place for >menus is much easier for the Computer Neophyte to use than having random >pop up menus all over the place. Yes, I suppose that's true, but it's irrelevant because no one has proposed random popup menus. What everyone *except* *you* is talking about is popup menus that appear *where* *the* *mouse* *is*. It's like the difference between being able to go to the refrigerator to get yourself a drink, and being able to hold out your hand and have a butler stick a drink in it. In some systems, the menu even remembers which selection you chose last time and pops up with that selection directly under the cursor, so if you're doing the same operation over and over you hardly even need to look at the menu, merely bring it up and release the mouse button. >How would a new user who has no idea what is going on feel about buttons >in random places on the screen, never the same, and try to find the one >that does what he/she wants? How should I know, why should I care? Such a system exists only in your fevered imagination. You seem to be saying that a butler moves around and you never know where he is, but a refrigerator always stays in the same place so you know where to find it; therefore, a refrigerator provides better drink service than a butler. One last advantage of popup menus; they don't burn a negative image into your screen like menu bars do. Therefore your display will last longer. -- Howard A. Landman {oliveb,hplabs}!intelca!mipos3!cpocd2!howard howard%cpocd2.intel.com@RELAY.CS.NET
sbb@esquire.UUCP (Stephen B. Baumgarten) (03/11/88)
In article <1170@cpocd2.UUCP> howard@cpocd2.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) writes: >One last advantage of popup menus; they don't burn a negative image into your >screen like menu bars do. Therefore your display will last longer. As long as this discussion, one would hope... [ half :-) ] Look, can we end this sometime soon? The one-button people are never going to convince the multi-button people (despite the research), and vice-versa. And, since Apple is Apple, the Mac is *never* going to have a multi-button mouse, and it's *never* going to have DMA, either. :-) -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." ...!cmcl2!esquire!sbb | - David Letterman
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (03/11/88)
In article ... ack@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Andy J. Williams) writes: > In article ... peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: > >If nothing else, Apple has earned a big black mark for pull-down menus. > How would a new user who has no idea what is going on feel about buttons > in random places on the screen, never the same, and try to find the one > that does what he/she wants? This way everyone knows what the hell is going > on and more time can be spent USING the Mac instead of learning applications. Who said anything about random buttons on the screen? You can easily set up your pop-up menus so that when you hit the right mouse button a menu appears right under the mouse with all the top-level topics (DA, File, Edit, etc...) visible. From there on it behaves just like the Mac system... without having to move the mouse all over creation. You don't have a two-or-more-button mouse? Sorry. My point that the solution to this design flaw (pull-down menus) is inappropriate on systems that don't share it remains valid. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) (03/12/88)
In article <1170@cpocd2.UUCP> howard@cpocd2.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) writes: |In article <8332@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU> ack@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Andy J. Williams) writes: |>I think that |>having a centralized, rarely changing, and standard format and place for |>menus is much easier for the Computer Neophyte to use than having random |>pop up menus all over the place. | |Yes, I suppose that's true, but it's irrelevant because no one has proposed |random popup menus. What everyone *except* *you* is talking about is popup |menus that appear *where* *the* *mouse* *is*. It's like the difference |between being able to go to the refrigerator to get yourself a drink, and |being able to hold out your hand and have a butler stick a drink in it. Sorry, but it is releavant. The issue was not where the menu shows up when you click the mouse, but where you click to get the menu you want. To continue your analogy, it's like sitting in the green chair to get an Anchor Steam beer, but if you want water you have to move over to the couch. Many window systems (such as Xerox's Smalltalk) do just that, depending on where you click you get a different menu. Move all the menus to one known place (the menu bar) and give them simple mnemonic titles makes it more obvious to the casual user. Which is what Andy said and everyone *except* *you* understood. |In some systems, the menu even remembers which selection you chose last time |and pops up with that selection directly under the cursor, so if you're doing |the same operation over and over you hardly even need to look at the menu, |merely bring it up and release the mouse button. This is nice, although I prefer Apple's solution of command keys that select menu items. This way I don't have to keep moving from the keyboard to the mouse to repeat an operation. | |>How would a new user who has no idea what is going on feel about buttons |>in random places on the screen, never the same, and try to find the one |>that does what he/she wants? | |How should I know, why should I care? Such a system exists only in your |fevered imagination. You seem to be saying that a butler moves around and you |never know where he is, but a refrigerator always stays in the same place so |you know where to find it; therefore, a refrigerator provides better drink |service than a butler. Just because your limited experience with windowing systems prevents you from understanding what Andy is talking about is no reason to flame him. I suggest in the future you cut the flammage in your couterpoints. See above for the reference to a window system that does what Andy talks about. | Howard A. Landman Jerry Whitnell Been through Hell? Communication Solutions, Inc. What did you bring back for me? - A. Brilliant
pds@quintus.UUCP (Peter Schachte) (03/12/88)
In article <1170@cpocd2.UUCP>, howard@cpocd2.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) writes: > One last advantage of popup menus; they don't burn a negative image into your > screen like menu bars do. Therefore your display will last longer. One more advantage: they don't take up valuable screen acreage. On small (low resolution) screens, this is a big advantage. Having using both kinds quite a bit, I find popup menus easier, and certainly faster, than pull-down (drop-down, window-shade, whatever) menus. -- -Peter Schachte pds@quintus.uucp ...!sun!quintus!pds
pokey@well.UUCP (Jef Poskanzer) (03/12/88)
In the referenced message, pds@quintus.UUCP (Peter Schachte) wrote: }One more advantage: they don't take up valuable screen acreage. On }small (low resolution) screens, this is a big advantage. Yeah, small low-resolution screens like the Macintosh's! Pop-ups would have been a big win on the Mac. So why did Jobs' crew go for pull-downs? N.I.H. perhaps -- they had to change something to make themselves feel useful. }Having using both kinds quite a bit, I find popup menus easier, and }certainly faster, than pull-down (drop-down, window-shade, whatever) }menus. Ya got that right. --- Jef Jef Poskanzer jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa ...well!pokey Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do.
DN5@PSUVM.BITNET (D. Jay Newman) (03/14/88)
There has been a lot of discussion that the Mac Interface would need a two-
button mouse to be able to effectively deal with pop-up menus (except where
you have some sort of button to click). How about if a double-click in the
window title-bar (outside of the close box and the zoom box) brought up a
pop-up menu for that window? I prefer double-clicks to modifier keys (I
really hate modifier keys for the mouse--I would almost rather have a multi-
button mouse--now if every application was consistant with modifier keys... :-)
For the most part I like the Mac Interface, and I like the menu bar for the
active application at the top, but with bigger screens, thats a lot of mouse
moving. Perhaps a double click in the top menu bar or in the open desktop
would bring up the finder menu.
Jay, etc...
Disclamer:
I'm big enough to speak for myself, but not big enough to speak
for anybody else!peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (03/15/88)
In article <1450@csib.csi.UUCP>, jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: > Sorry, but it is releavant. The issue was not where the menu shows up when > you click the mouse, but where you click to get the menu you want. Maybe for you. For me the issue is whether the menu pops up under the mouse or halfway across the room. > Move all the > menus to one known place (the menu bar) and give them simple mnemonic titles > makes it more obvious to the casual user. Which is what Andy said and > everyone *except* *you* understood. That's two differences. You're confusing where the menus come up (the menu bar or under the mouse) with the contents of the menus. > This is nice, although I prefer Apple's solution of command keys that > select menu items. This way I don't have to keep moving from the keyboard > to the mouse to repeat an operation. That's another dimension still. You can have command keys no matter where the menus come up. -- -- a clone of Peter (have you hugged your wolf today) da Silva `-_-' -- normally ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter U -- Disclaimer: These aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.