csnjr@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Nick Rothwell) (03/10/88)
I've been flicking through this Mac interface vs. Sun interface, 1 vs. 3 button mouse, true vs. pseudo multi-tasking, debate for ages. I'm about to buy a Mac+. Yes, the screen is small, Yes, it only has one mouse button, Yes, it uses a menu bar, No, it isn't "real" multitasking, No, it isn't as fast at graphics as an Amiga, No, it isn't colour, ... But it's *perfect* for what I need at home. I feel this is all apple-n-oranges stuff. A Mac isn't a Sun. But I don't want a Sun at home... Any chance of this being the last word? Thought not :-) I *am* interested by the comments, philosophy of interfaces and insights into programming guidelines, and so on, but the to-and-fro criticism is a bit of a waste of bandwidth... Nick. -- Nick Rothwell, Laboratory for Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh. nick%lfcs.ed.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk <Atlantic Ocean>!mcvax!ukc!lfcs!nick ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ...while the builders of the cages sleep with bullets, bars and stone, they do not see your road to freedom that you build with flesh and bone.
talley@bodo.UUCP (James T. Talley) (03/13/88)
In article <1064@its63b.ed.ac.uk> nick%ed.lfcs@uk.ac.ucl.cs.nss writes: >I've been flicking through this ... debate for ages. > >I *am* interested by the comments, philosophy of interfaces and insights into >programming guidelines, and so on, but the to-and-fro criticism is a bit of a >waste of bandwidth... I agree completely. This discussion has degenerated into a shouting match. Hardly anyone is doing anything other than praising their favorite system and putting down any other system. I've seen several LONG articles that seem to be defending injured feelings rather than ideas. Could we put a lid on the endless my-mouse-is-better-than-your-mouse thread? Then we could all get back to designing improved user interfaces. :-) James Talley -- UUCP : ...!cbosgd!osu-cis!bodo!talley Internet: talley-j@osu-20.ohio-state.edu Bitnet : ts0183@ohstmvsa
wetter@tybalt.caltech.edu (Pierce T. Wetter) (03/13/88)
In article <1064@its63b.ed.ac.uk> nick%ed.lfcs@uk.ac.ucl.cs.nss writes: >I've been flicking through this Mac interface vs. Sun interface, 1 vs. 3 >button mouse, true vs. pseudo multi-tasking, debate for ages. > >Any chance of this being the last word? >Thought not :-) > >I *am* interested by the comments, philosophy of interfaces and insights into >programming guidelines, and so on, but the to-and-fro criticism is a bit of a >waste of bandwidth... > > Nick. Nick, I'm afraid you don't understand. Every three months comp.sys.mac and some other newgroup have a huge dicussion about why the mac is or isn't better then X. Most of the people who read this newsgroup full-time have realized this and have written program under u(why does everyone put a star here?)nix, to post the same messages every three months. If you like I'll send you diffs from the "Letter To Penthouse Generator" program to make it into the "Flame war with newgroup X" program, additionally, the net gods have noticed this and modified the sources to rn so that it will soon automatically generate such messages on-site, so as not to waste net bandwidth. Eventually they hope to expand this to all newsgroups so people need not post messages at all... Pierce Wetter Everything I say is true, HONEST! If you don't believe me send me five dollars.... "What is the robbing of a bank compared to the FOUNDING of a bank?" -- Bertold Brecht -------------------------------------------- wetter@tybalt.caltech.edu --------------------------------------------
barnett@vdsvax.steinmetz.ge.com (Bruce G. Barnett) (03/14/88)
In article <117@bodo.UUCP> talley@bodo.UUCP (James T. Talley) writes: | Could we put |a lid on the endless my-mouse-is-better-than-your-mouse thread? Then we |could all get back to designing improved user interfaces. :-) If this topic doesn't interest you, then edit your KILL file. for rn, type ^K and add: /:*comp.windows.misc*/:j But I view this on a chance to discuss the future of the Mac. Larry Rosenstein (@Apple) stated: > I think it is pointless to discuss user interfaces feature by feature. > The Mac was designed with very different goals than the Sun. I understand the difference between a home computer and a Unix workstation. But soon Sun and Apple will be competing in the low end Unix Workstation market. My 'brilliant' prediction is that Sun will have a full-blown window system ( or two) available on their box before Apple releases theirs for A/UX. Ignoring the installed software base, are the goals of the A/UX window system different from Sun's? If someone takes a good hard look at two Unix boxes, one on a Mac, and another on a Sun, and they look at the Unix user interface, - which box will they purchase? In addition, future Macs will have large screens and better support for multitasking. Are some Mac users going to learn that the window system is slowing them down? Do you care? The MacOS is very ambitious, and very impressive. Coming from a no-mouse PC. the MacOS is light-years ahead. But how will it be perceived by the Unix professionals and the power users? The people with Suns, Apollos, HP's, Vaxes, Symbolics, TI, etc. at work. Will it prove adequate to the needs of the future? Or will it evolve? And to what? -- Bruce G. Barnett <barnett@ge-crd.ARPA> <barnett@steinmetz.UUCP> uunet!steinmetz!barnett
elwell@ichthyosaur.cis.ohio-state.edu (Clayton M. Elwell) (03/15/88)
barnett@steinmetz.ge.com (Bruce G. Barnett) writes:
The MacOS is very ambitious, and very impressive. Coming from a
no-mouse PC. the MacOS is light-years ahead.
But how will it be perceived by the Unix professionals and the power users?
The people with Suns, Apollos, HP's, Vaxes, Symbolics, TI, etc. at work.
Well, *I* have Suns and HP's and Symbolicses & TI's either on my desk
or within quick walking distance (I'm posting this from a Sun 3/50).
They are nice machines. What I would like on my desk at work is a Mac
II running A/UX. It would be nice to have the same at home. I know,
I seem to be becoming almost as much an A/UX bigot as Phil :-), but
there are reasons for that. I've actually used A/UX. And NeWS. And
X. And HP/UX. And Symbolicses. And so on. And I'd still rather
have a nice, fast Mac II running A/UX.
I think I qualify as a power user... I've been known to choke whole
networks of Suns at a time (rexd can be fun). And I have *yet* to
find a window system that is as nice as the Mac toolbox. NeWS could
come close if they ever build a real user interface system on top of
it, but the Mac II is here now, ready to go.
Don't pass judgement before you've used it.
-=-
Clayton M. Elwell <elwell@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>
The Ohio State University, Department of Computer & Information Science
2036 Neil Avenue Mall, Columbus OH 43210 / (614) 292-6546benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) (03/16/88)
> barnett@steinmetz.ge.com (Bruce G. Barnett) writes: > The MacOS is very ambitious, and very impressive. Coming from a > no-mouse PC. the MacOS is light-years ahead. > > But how will it be perceived by the Unix professionals and the power > users? > > The people with Suns, Apollos, HP's, Vaxes, Symbolics, TI, etc. at work. > I think the Mac II is still a *long* way from a Sun or an Apollo....why? look no further than a networking windowing system...CASE tools abound on the sun (this is hardly the Mac II's strong point)...the overall user interface on the Sun is better in so far as flexibility is concerned....as for desktop interfaces...wait...this will be resolved in the next 3 or so weeks .... (according to the trade rags)...incidentally the *TOOLS* that Sun provides makes it NO CONTEST...(CGI, 2d-3d CORE, SunView libraries, NeWS/X11, SunTools, source code to SunTools, ... in addition when the new 386 rolls out MS-DOS compatibility will be another given...