daniel@unicom.UUCP (Dan Smith, not your average Lithuanian...) (03/20/88)
First off, after I showed my fiance a rather shocking article in
the paper about Apple, she said "They should change their name to prune" :-)
In case you haven't heard by now, Apple is suing Microsoft *and*
HP for alledgedly copying the look and feel of the Mac interface. My gut
feeling is that I expect this sort of behavior from IBM, not Apple.
I think other will make comments that are better informed, filled with
facts. I want to say that I respect what Sun is doing, trying to get good
standards spread around. Apple got lots of ideas from Xerox, and then went off
and made millions off of it, and now they have the Gall to say it was their
idea in the first place!? Why can't they license out their technology, so that
a wider range of users (read, those who do not wish to pay Apple's artificially
high prices) can benefit, and Apple can still make lots of money? Why can't
they use the money that they intend to put into this lawsuit to make their
interface that much better? Why don't they learn a lesson from what Sun
is doing? What Borland has been doing?
I think that Microsoft and HP should be allowed to do what they are
doing, and that Apple should conceentrate on making their own products that
much better...A/UX certainly needs a lot more time! (Disclaimer: I am going
on the impressions of knowledgable collegues, I haven't actually used A/UX,
but I want to, just to compare it to [4.2/4.3 BSD/SUN/Vax Unix]).
You know, it might not be such a bad idea for users/developers to
let Apple know, if only for a day, how they feel about this. Perhaps we
should Boycott Apple for one day - don't buy Apple products, don't develop
Apple Software/Hardware, as a protest. Is April 1 too early for this?
It's an appropriate day to show Apple that they are being foolish! I feel
this is a very important topic to explore, hence the cross posting. It's
important that Apple feel the response of the user community.
dan
Disclaimer: I speak for myself only, my collegues may or may not agree
dan smith, island graphics, marin co, ca|"A womp ba ba lu ba, a womp bam boom!"
uucp: {ucbvax!ucbcad,sun}!island!daniel | ph: +1 (415) 491 1000 (W), 332 FAST,
uucp: pixar!unicom!daniel, well!daniels | 332 EASY (H)| unix/guitars/films/tunaadam@hyper.lap.upenn.edu (Adam Feigin) (03/20/88)
Well folks, The so called 'copyright infringement' is just a bag full of hot
air.....
Apple did NOT 'invent' such technology......Alan Kay (Formerly of Xerox PARC,
and now Fellow at Apple) had the original idea....It was incorporated into
Smalltalk-80, and also happens to be incorporated in the Xerox 1108/6085
series, which date quite a few years before The Lisa & Mac were released.....
Please, APPLE, stop wasting the taxpayers time and money by bringing such a
silly suit.
Adam
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ARPAnet: {root,adam}@{hyper,apollo}.lap.upenn.edu
UUCP: {harvard,decwrl,rutgers,ihnp4}!super.upenn.edu!hyper.lap.upenn.edu!adam
Adam Feigin
Network Administrator
Language Analysis Project
University of Pennsylvania
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------amlovell@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Anthony M Lovell) (03/21/88)
I say that we should help Apple get a monopoly on Mac interface copies. The fewer companies that base computer OS's on this the better. Why? We do not live in a point and click universe! -- amlovell@phoenix.princeton.edu ...since 1963. disclaimer: These are MY opinions. You only WISH they were yours.
emp@ut-emx.UUCP (naDev~tlhIngan~putulu) (03/22/88)
In article <2112@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, amlovell@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Anthony M Lovell) writes: > > I say that we should help Apple get a monopoly on Mac interface copies. > The fewer companies that base computer OS's on this the better. > > Why? We do not live in a point and click universe! > ...ah, but our wild west ancestors did! ...does that mean that Apple's innovative point & click method is in reality a throwback to simpler times when a man solved his problems by blowing them away? ...hey, before you groan, remember that there IS a lasso icon that is commonly used! Big Tex OM Discalmer: Zane Grey's new novel: "Ambush at Silicon Valley" - the story of a man on a black Macintosh who rides into a town with no OS and attempts to tame it...even if he must kill his mentor, Mr. Xerox, and his rival, Eyebeem Doss, to do so.
japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) (03/23/88)
In article <292@unicom.UUCP>, daniel@unicom.UUCP (Dan Smith, not your average Lithuanian...) writes: > > You know, it might not be such a bad idea for users/developers to > let Apple know, if only for a day, how they feel about this. Perhaps we > should Boycott Apple for one day - don't buy Apple products, don't develop > Apple Software/Hardware, as a protest. Is April 1 too early for this? > It's an appropriate day to show Apple that they are being foolish! I feel > this is a very important topic to explore, hence the cross posting. It's > important that Apple feel the response of the user community. > > dan smith, island graphics, marin co, ca|"A womp ba ba lu ba, a womp bam boom!" Better yet boycott Apple all together!!! Years ago they forced DRI to destroy GEM, which was my favorite operating environment for the PC, using the same logic of "it's ours cause we stole it first!". Now that windows and the Presentation Manager have become a viable market their pulling the same charade. Fortunately Microsoft is in a much better position to legally fight this harassent than DRI ever was! In the past I have always presented the MAC to certain students as an alternative to the PC environment. I will not be able to do so in the future. I could not reccommend a system marketed by pirates that not only steal other developers ideas and market them as their own but use harassment to prohibit free enterprise! Buying an APPLE is UN-AMERICAN! Joe Applegate - Colorado School of Mines Computing Center {seismo, hplabs}!hao!isis!csm9a!japplega or SYSOP @ M.O.M. AI BBS - (303) 273-3989 - 300/1200/2400 8-N-1 24 hrs. *** UNIX is a philosophy, not an operating system *** *** BUT it is a registered trademark of AT&T, so get off my back ***
john@jclyde.UUCP (John B. Meaders Jr.) (03/23/88)
In article <1298@ut-emx.UUCP> emp@ut-emx.UUCP (naDev~tlhIngan~putulu) writes: > >Discalmer: Zane Grey's new novel: "Ambush at Silicon Valley" - the story > of a man on a black Macintosh who rides into a town with no OS > and attempts to tame it...even if he must kill his mentor, > Mr. Xerox, and his rival, Eyebeem Doss, to do so. This is the best ending to a message I have seen in quite awhile. :-) :-) My hat is off to the author for his originality. Eyebeem Doss :-) :-) -- John B. Meaders, Jr. 1114 Camino La Costa #3083, Austin, TX 78752 ATT: Voice: +1 (512) 451-5038 Data: +1 (512) 371-0550 UUCP: ...!uunet!utastro!bigtex!jclyde!john or john@jclyde
gore@eecs.nwu.edu (Jacob Gore) (03/23/88)
Maybe some entities like University of Illinois should sue Apple for look and
feel of computers.
Jacob Gore Gore@EECS.NWU.Edu
Northwestern Univ., EECS Dept. {oddjob,gargoyle,ihnp4}!nucsrl!gorekeeshu@nikhefk.UUCP (Kees Huyser) (03/23/88)
In article <663@csm9a.UUCP> japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: # #Buying an APPLE is UN-AMERICAN! Since I have the Dutch nationaltity I'll continue using the Mac :-) # Joe Applegate - Colorado School of Mines Computing Center # {seismo, hplabs}!hao!isis!csm9a!japplega -- Kees | UUCP : keeshu@nikhefk.uucp or {[wherever]!uunet}!mcvax!nikhefk!keeshu | BITNET : keeshu@hasara5.bitnet | FIDO : Kees Huyser @ 2:508/15 (Opus_MacSaga) | SNAIL : Kees Huyser, NIKHEF-K, PO Box 4395, 1009 AJ Amsterdam, Netherlands +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
bakken@hrsw2.UUCP (David E. Bakken) (03/23/88)
In article <292@unicom.UUCP>, daniel@unicom.UUCP (Dan Smith, not your average Lithuanian...) writes: > > In case you haven't heard by now, Apple is suing Microsoft *and* > HP for alledgedly copying the look and feel of the Mac interface. My gut > feeling is that I expect this sort of behavior from IBM, not Apple. A number of months ago the Wall Street Journal ran an article about how Bill Gates really plays hardball and forced Apple into using his products. So maybe Mr. Sculley is still upset about this, but that doesn't explain HP in the suit. I *do* boycott Apple as a consumer because they charge way too much for their computers. That's why I own an Amiga, which lets me do [ ... cut out religious & technical arguements not appropriate here :-) ]. -- Dave Bakken Boeing Commercial Airplanes (206) 277-2571 uw-beaver!apcisea!tahoma!hrsw2!bakken Disclaimer: These are my own views, not those of my employers. Don't let them deter you from buying the 747 you've been saving hard for.
dko@calmasd.GE.COM (Dan O'Neill) (03/24/88)
In article <663@csm9a.UUCP> japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: >Years ago [Apple computers] forced DRI to destroy GEM, which was my >favorite operating environment for the PC, using the same logic of >"it's ours cause we stole it first!". This was news to me. As I recall Apple did not win their suit against Digital Research (DRI) the creators of GEM. So... I gave Egghead Software (the new Bill Gates clearing house) a call. GEM Desktop is available for $39.95. Egghead also claims to carry the entire line of GEM products. -- Dan O'Neill dko@calmasd.GE.COM GE Calma R&D ...!sdcsvax!calmasd!dko
leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (03/24/88)
In article <2112@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> amlovell@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Anthony M Lovell) writes:
<
<I say that we should help Apple get a monopoly on Mac interface copies.
<The fewer companies that base computer OS's on this the better.
<
<Why? We do not live in a point and click universe!
During a discussion of designing user interfaces for the handicapped on the
Borland SIG on CIS the subject of graphical interfaces came up. The blind
users are not happy. They've got speech units that let them use a stock PC
and most programs quite easily. They have some trouble, but much of that
can be solved if programmers would follow some simple rules (like don't
park the cursor off screen somewhere, their software works better if the
real cursor tracks the program cursor).
If the "Mac"/windows/GEM/etc interface wins, they will no longer be able to
use programs without having them specially modified. Think about it for a
minute. How would you feel if you were told you couldn't run *any* new
programs that came out. That you'd have to make due with the current
versions or get a programmer to write a custom program for you?
--
Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
CIS: [70465,203]
"I used to be a hacker. Now I'm a 'microcomputer specialist'.
You know... I'd rather be a hacker."ken@pdn.UUCP (Ken Auer) (03/24/88)
In article <292@unicom.UUCP> daniel@unicom.UUCP (Dan Smith, not your average Lithuanian...) writes: > In case you haven't heard by now, Apple is suing Microsoft *and* >HP for alledgedly copying the look and feel of the Mac interface. My gut >feeling is that I expect this sort of behavior from IBM, not Apple. > > [stuff deleted about how Apple should follow SUN and Borland's lead > and license out there technology... with which I agree]. > > I think that Microsoft and HP should be allowed to do what they are >doing, and that Apple should conceentrate on making their own products that >much better...A/UX certainly needs a lot more time! ... A lot of software products exist due to the fact that company A's competition sees some flaws in Company B's product, so it duplicates the good points and comes up with (what it perceives to be) improvements to the bad points. Company A in turn improves it further, etc. It's called "competition", "free enterprise", and all kinds of other words and phrases that make Americans patriotic for a few fleeting seconds. I think Apple's getting a bit carried away with the visual copyright laws of the U.S. Of course the visual copyright laws allow them to get carried away (but that's another flame altogether). Gee, I wonder who was the first company to use sexual innuendos in blue jean commercials... could they sue the pants off the competition? :-) Imagine if Apple wins! What will that mean to the advancement of user interface systems? systems that are built on top of them? In the computer world (and the world in general) there are very few completely original ideas. We all know that the Mac user interface wasn't completely original. Where are we going to draw the line on this crap. Who invented a keyboard... can they sue everybody else for producing another device with the same "look and feel" as there original device... (can I buy stock in their company? :-) Obviously, Apple is a corporation who is trying to make big bucks, and sueing their competition seems like a good way to do it. However, isn't Apple really saying, "Hey, we were the ones to make nifty windowing systems with mouse interfaces widely available, and we don't like having people come up with better versions of it. We know we didn't come out with the perfect product, but we'll get around to making it better REAL SOON NOW... it's not fair that other company's have technically competent people that can do it quicker than us." If they didn't think the competition was better, why sue? What could they get in damages? :-) > You know, it might not be such a bad idea for users/developers to >let Apple know, if only for a day, how they feel about this. Perhaps we >should Boycott Apple for one day - don't buy Apple products, don't develop >Apple Software/Hardware, as a protest. Is April 1 too early for this? >It's an appropriate day to show Apple that they are being foolish! I feel >this is a very important topic to explore, hence the cross posting. It's >important that Apple feel the response of the user community. I don't think one day will do anything, especially since there's tons of people out there that won't boycott. I was seriously thinking of buying a MacII, but I'm seriously reconsidering it now. I'm also not one to write letters to corporations or congressman, but I'm also planning on doing so now. I always thought Apple was a company that really wanted to advance the state of the art, but alas... reality. They're just afraid of a little competition. Hey Apple, see figure 1. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Auer Paradyne Corporation {gatech,rutgers,attmail}!codas!pdn!ken Mail stop LF-207 Phone: (813) 530-8307 P.O. Box 2826 Largo, FL 34649-9981 "The views expressed above do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer, which by no means makes them incorrect."
reggie@pdn.UUCP (George W. Leach) (03/25/88)
In article <2620@pdn.UUCP> ken@pdn.UUCP (0000-Ken Auer) writes: >I always thought Apple was a company that really wanted to advance the >state of the art, but alas... reality. They're just afraid of a little >competition. Scully must still think he is at Pepsi. Apple is treating the "look and feel" of the macintosh UI as if it were the formula for Pepsi :-) -- George W. Leach Paradyne Corporation {gatech,rutgers,attmail}!codas!pdn!reggie Mail stop LF-207 Phone: (813) 530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 Largo, FL 34649-2826
rupp@cod.NOSC.MIL (William L. Rupp) (03/25/88)
->In article <2693@calmasd.GE.COM> dko@calmasd.UUCP (Dan O'Neill) writes:
->>
->>This was news to me. As I recall Apple did not win their suit against
->>Digital Research (DRI) the creators of GEM. So... I gave Egghead
->>--
->>Dan O'Neill dko@calmasd.GE.COM
->>GE Calma R&D ...!sdcsvax!calmasd!dko
->
->
I believe that the matter was settled out of court rather than being decided
in a trial. DRI agreed to license the technology from Apple.
Bill
======================================================================
I speak for myself, and not on behalf of any other person or organization
.........................How's that, Gary?
======================================================================cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (03/25/88)
> In article <292@unicom.UUCP>, daniel@unicom.UUCP (Dan Smith, not your average Lithuanian...) writes: > > > > You know, it might not be such a bad idea for users/developers to > > let Apple know, if only for a day, how they feel about this. Perhaps we > > should Boycott Apple for one day - don't buy Apple products, don't develop > > Apple Software/Hardware, as a protest. Is April 1 too early for this? > > It's an appropriate day to show Apple that they are being foolish! I feel > > this is a very important topic to explore, hence the cross posting. It's > > important that Apple feel the response of the user community. > > > > dan smith, island graphics, marin co, ca|"A womp ba ba lu ba, a womp bam boom!" > > Better yet boycott Apple all together!!! > > In the past I have always presented the MAC to certain students as an > alternative to the PC environment. I will not be able to do so in the > future. I could not reccommend a system marketed by pirates that not > only steal other developers ideas and market them as their own but use > harassment to prohibit free enterprise! > > Buying an APPLE is UN-AMERICAN! > > Joe Applegate - Colorado School of Mines Computing Center ^^^^^ Have you considered changing your last name in protest? :-) Clayton E. Cramer
japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) (03/26/88)
In article <2693@calmasd.GE.COM>, dko@calmasd.GE.COM (Dan O'Neill) writes: > In article <663@csm9a.UUCP> japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: > > >Years ago [Apple computers] forced DRI to destroy GEM, which was my > >favorite operating environment for the PC, using the same logic of > >"it's ours cause we stole it first!". > > This was news to me. As I recall Apple did not win their suit against > Digital Research (DRI) the creators of GEM. So... I gave Egghead > Software (the new Bill Gates clearing house) a call. GEM Desktop is > available for $39.95. Egghead also claims to carry the entire line of > GEM products. > -- > Dan O'Neill dko@calmasd.GE.COM > GE Calma R&D ...!sdcsvax!calmasd!dko Apple's suit did not eliminate GEM from the market but it forced DRI to so drastically change GEM as to "destroy" it's usefulness as an operating environment. The kludges introduced to manipulate files on the desktop without encouraging further harassment from Apple are so unnatural as to render it "in my opinion" as an unmanageable environment! I still use GEM 1.2 and fortunately I have had no trouble with any of the GEM based products AS OF YET! I am sure, however, that sooner or later I will encounter a GEM application that will not work without the post Apple kludge that is currently marketed! I no longer develop any GEM based applications myself... concentrating instead on Windows.... even though I find the windows interface nearly as unfreindly as GEM 2.1 (NO ICONS...NO FOLDERS...NO TRASH!) at least it's supported by a company with some clout thats not going to roll over and pant every time Apple barks! (I hope!) From what I've heard of New Wave I can't wait to see it!!! Maybe it would inspire me to clear GEM 1.2 off my hard disk! Joe Applegate - Colorado School of Mines Computing Center {seismo, hplabs}!hao!isis!csm9a!japplega or SYSOP @ M.O.M. AI BBS - (303) 273-3989 - 300/1200/2400 8-N-1 24 hrs. *** UNIX is a philosophy, not an operating system *** *** BUT it is a registered trademark of AT&T, so get off my back ***
brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) (03/26/88)
The question is where to draw the line. I think we do want protection against what we might call "knock-offs." It's up to the judge to decide what is a knock-off and what isn't. The various windowing systems are clearly not knock-offs of the Mac. On the other hand, one might debate that they are knock-offs of the original Xerox developments. Xerox has an agreement with Apple, which gives Apple the right to sue on these grounds. If MS Windows is a knock-off of Xerox's developments, it's only barely so. Up to a judge. It's further clouded by the age of the Xerox interface. My belief is that `software patents' should only last 5 years or so. But look at other industries. I can't publish a comic book about a man who flies, is super strong and can see through walls. It doesn't matter what my character's origin is, or what the plots of the stories are. That same law might well apply in other cases. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
rogue@well.UUCP (L. Brett Glass) (03/26/88)
In article <2693@calmasd.GE.COM> dko@calmasd.UUCP (Dan O'Neill) writes: >In article <663@csm9a.UUCP> japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: > >>Years ago [Apple computers] forced DRI to destroy GEM, which was my >>favorite operating environment for the PC, using the same logic of >>"it's ours cause we stole it first!". > >This was news to me. As I recall Apple did not win their suit against >Digital Research (DRI) the creators of GEM. So... I gave Egghead >Software (the new Bill Gates clearing house) a call. GEM Desktop is >available for $39.95. Egghead also claims to carry the entire line of >GEM products. >-- >Dan O'Neill dko@calmasd.GE.COM >GE Calma R&D ...!sdcsvax!calmasd!dko There never WAS a suit when Apple attacked DRI. DRI was in deep financial trouble and seeking investors. It was not likely to get those investors if there was pending litigation. DRI was forced to settle out of court. This was not the only predatory move made by Apple in its quest to protect what it "stole first." The agreement between Microsoft and Apple was executed the quarter before Microsoft went public, almost certainly after the legal and financial papers had been prepared. It is quite likely that Gates >had< to sign to avoid financial disaster. Don't underestimate John Sculley. In order to rise to the top of a mature company such as Pepsi, one must almost certainly use unethical tactics. The same kind of tactics one might use to, say, depose Steve Jobs, bully DRI, or blackmail Microsoft. <rogue>
blume@netmbx.UUCP (Heiko Blume) (03/29/88)
lets clear things up a bit.. >This was not the only predatory move made by Apple in its quest to >protect what it "stole first." read "Smalltalk-80 - bits of history, words of advice" :: Apple, DEC, HP and Tektronix received the right to use the Smalltalk-80 VI in their r&d from xerox. that is, the reproduction and redistribution of the VI (virtual image) or PORTIONS of the VI are permitted only as incorporated into a product of these manufacturers/licensees. -- Heiko Blume # DOMAIN: blume@netmbx.UUCP { BITNET: ( mixed } Seekorso 29 # BANG : ..!{backbone}!netmbx!blume D-1000 Berlin 22, West-Germany # Phone : (+49 30) 365 55 71 or ... 365 75 01 Telex : 183008 intro d # Fax : (+49 30) 882 50 65
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (03/31/88)
In article <1513@looking.UUCP>, brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: > But look at other industries. I can't publish a comic book about a man > who flies, is super strong and can see through walls. It doesn't > matter what my character's origin is, or what the plots of the stories > are. That same law might well apply in other cases. Sure you can. There are two major players in the comics game, plus a bunch of smaller companies. They all have Superman-like characters, though most of them aren't nearly as powerful... Supes gets a lot of criticism on these grounds. In fact DC recently toned down his powers and made him much more like the other guys' characters. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.