ant@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au (Anthony Murdoch) (08/02/90)
Hi guys & gals, There have been a few things that have been confusing me over this stuff with OW/NeWS/X11. We here have a Sun 4/470 as a standalone machine. On our LAN, we have a fair number of machines running X, rangeing from an NCD X-terminal to the Sun 3/50 that I use (I run xdm on the 470 and simply have the 3/50 as a display, little more than a terminal really). What I want to know basically is "What would OW2.0 do for us ?" Would I be able to run OW/NeWS/X11 stuff on the 470 and have it displayed on an X-terminal or any other X-machine ? This would be wonderfull but I am unsure from what I have read as to whether it is possible. One of the things that would be really usefull in this case would be the ability to run SunView applications on remote X-terminals. On another note, the press release mentions a new version of XView that makes it easy to convert current SunView stuff to X11. How much easier ? I fiddled with XView a month or so ago, and tried to convert mush to use XView. It appeared to me that you would have to have about 5 years of experience in BOTH X11 and SunView to have a hope of converting anything (but maybe I was approaching the problem in the wrong way). Has anyone managed this feat BTW, as I am currently using xmh and long to be able to use "Xmush". Tooltool is another I would love to see converted as I have this wonderfull nntool that I created in my old SunView days. thanx in advance for any info/experience you could forward, ant -- V ant "It's great to be young and insane" \o/ ant@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au - Dream Team -O- Anthony Murdoch Prentice Computer Centre /0\ Phone (07) 3774078 University of Qld
chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com (Chuck Musciano) (08/02/90)
In article <1990Aug2.025858.14871@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au>, ant@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au (Anthony Murdoch) writes: > What I want to know basically is "What would OW2.0 do for us ?" Would I be > able to run OW/NeWS/X11 stuff on the 470 and have it displayed on an X-terminal > or any other X-machine ? This would be wonderfull but I am unsure from what I > have read as to whether it is possible. One of the things that would be really > usefull in this case would be the ability to run SunView applications on > remote X-terminals. OW 2.0 allows you to do anything you can do with a "regular" X package. Thus, you can run applications on one machine and display their windows on a machine running OW 2.0. However, this only applies to X and NeWS applications. Since SunView is not a networked window system, you can only display SunView apps on the machine on which they are running. Basically, OW 2.0 gives you all of X, all of NeWS, and all of SunView on one machine. This is great for us, since we are slowly migrating from SunView to X, and we don't have to cut straight to X. We can wean ourselves from SunView tools as X versions become available. > On another note, the press release mentions a new version of XView that makes > it easy to convert current SunView stuff to X11. How much easier ? I fiddled > with XView a month or so ago, and tried to convert mush to use XView. It > appeared to me that you would have to have about 5 years of experience in BOTH > X11 and SunView to have a hope of converting anything (but maybe I was > approaching the problem in the wrong way). Has anyone managed this feat BTW, > as I am currently using xmh and long to be able to use "Xmush". I don't put much faith in the XView conversion scripts, but I have heard that some people have had success with them. For simple SunView tools, they probably work rather well. I just ported contool, my Sun console watcher, to X. I retained the basic appliactions code, but rebuilt the interface using GUIDE, Sun's OPEN LOOK interface builder. Anyone doing any development for XView needs to look at GUIDE. I was able to build a base window and six dialog boxes in a just a few hours. Hit a button, and out comes 3,000 lines of source code. Add your application routines, and away you go. And at $295 per unlimited site license, how can you go wrong? I will be releasing contool in the near future, as soon as the XView toolkit makes it to MIT. Here is one small dilemma: where do I post it? Comp.sources.sun, obviously, but what about comp.sources.x? I've seen postings apparently rejected from c.s.x for lack of an imakefile. I don't have an imakefile for contool, and don't know if it needs one or not. Any advice? > Tooltool is > another I would love to see converted as I have this wonderfull nntool that > I created in my old SunView days. Soon, when I get the time, I'll port tooltool to X. Again, here is my dilemma: do I retain SunView look and feel for backwards compatibility, or do I switch to an OPEN LOOK look and feel, making new tools "correct" but breaking old ones? At least under OW 2.0, you can run old tooltool applications until I get the port finished. Chuck Musciano ARPA : chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com Harris Corporation Usenet: ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!chuck PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 AT&T : (407) 727-6131 Melbourne, FL 32902 FAX : (407) 727-{5118,5227,4004} I'm glad you asked, son. Being popular is the most important thing in the world. -- Homer Simpson
alan@cogswell.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Alan S. Mazer) (08/14/90)
In article <4057@trantor.harris-atd.com>, chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com (Chuck Musciano) writes: > Basically, OW 2.0 gives > you all of X, all of NeWS, and all of SunView on one machine. Unless OW 2.0 is substantially improved in capabilities as well as speed from OW 1.0, some SunView code will not run. In fact, I personally haven't seen any of our SunView code around here that run well under xnews. This isn't a flame; just don't get your hopes up. > I just ported contool, my Sun console watcher, to X. I retained the > basic appliactions code, but rebuilt the interface using GUIDE, Sun's OPEN LOOK > interface builder. Anyone doing any development for XView needs to look at > GUIDE. I was able to build a base window and six dialog boxes in a just a few > hours. Hit a button, and out comes 3,000 lines of source code. Add your > application routines, and away you go. And at $295 per unlimited site license, > how can you go wrong? You can lose $295 :-). We've had two different people here try to use GUIDE and in both cases it was just more trouble than it was worth. GUIDE does generate lots of source code and if you want to generate source code quickly, you can use it. People here found that they could do the same things with much less code simpler and more cleanly outside of GUIDE. -- Alan # My aptitude test in high school suggested that ..!ames!elroy!alan # I should become a forest ranger. Sometimes I alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov # wonder if that was not indeed my true calling.
bochner@lange.harvard.EDU (Harry Bochner) (08/14/90)
In article <1990Aug2.025858.14871@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au>, ant@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au (Anthony Murdoch) writes: > On another note, the press release mentions a new version of XView that makes > it easy to convert current SunView stuff to X11. How much easier ? I fiddled > with XView a month or so ago, and tried to convert mush to use XView. It > appeared to me that you would have to have about 5 years of experience in BOTH > X11 and SunView to have a hope of converting anything. I haven't tried it, but I'm rather suspicious about the robustness of XView, on the following basis. Sun has put a lot of work into their Desk Suite programs, SunWrite, SunDraw, etc. So far these programs are available _only_ in SunView versions. The fact that they haven't released X versions seems to mean that: a) they feel there is some marketing advantage to having only SunView versions (since it means that users have to be on Suns, as opposed to X-terminals, for instance). This would contradict the stated strategy of supporting X. or b) converting from SunView to X is trickier than they'd like us to think, even using XView. or c) XView itself just doesn't work very well yet. This is just speculation: anyone have any information? Harry Bochner bochner@endor.harvard.edu
mlandau@bbn.com (Matthew Landau) (08/14/90)
alan@cogswell.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Alan S. Mazer) writes: >Unless OW 2.0 is substantially improved in capabilities as well as speed from >OW 1.0, some SunView code will not run. Ah, but it IS substantially improved, in almost every respect. I've been running OWN 2.0 on my Sparcstation for a week, and found it quite impressive. It's very fast, it's at least as robust as any other vendor's X11 implementation (and much moreso than either DECWindows or AIXWindows, in my experience), and it's obvious that a lot of work has gone into the desktop tools. In fact, it's the first X-based environment that's good enough to convince me to ditch SunView once and for all. I've also run *many* different SunView programs, including some large (3 MB) applications that tweak colormap segments, interact with the window mangement functions on their own, use fullscreen access, and do other things you might expect to be broken under OWN. Except for the well-documented "SunView windows always sit on top of the OWN display" problem, every single one of them has run flawlessly. -- Matt Landau Rebel without a clue. mlandau@bbn.com
mlandau@bbn.com (Matthew Landau) (08/14/90)
bochner@lange.harvard.EDU (Harry Bochner) writes: >I haven't tried it, but I'm rather suspicious about the robustness of XView, >on the following basis. Sun has put a lot of work into their Desk Suite >programs, SunWrite, SunDraw, etc. So far these programs are available >_only_ in SunView versions. I believe that all of these programs are available for machines running OpenWindows version 2. OWN 2.0 also includes the complete set of "DeskSet" tools (filemgr, printtool, tapetool, calendar, etc.), all of which are written with XView, and all of which leave the vanilla X11 tools to which most of us are accustomed in the dust. (Of course, they have their share of glaring stupidities, like the fact that the tape tool won't deal with remote tape drives and there's no way to quit textedit from the keyboard, but that's not XView's fault.) The new 3-D look on XView is pretty cool, too :-) The longer I use both Open Look and Motif, the more convinced I become that Open Look is the way to go for the future. I can't explain why, but it just "feels" much more natural in almost every respect... perhaps all that human factors work that reportedly went into the design really paid off. -- Matt Landau Oblivion gallops closer, mlandau@bbn.com favoring the spur, sparing the rein.
philr@knecht.Sun.COM (Phil Robar) (08/14/90)
bochner@lange.harvard.EDU (Harry Bochner) writes: >... but I'm rather suspicious about the robustness of XView, on the following >basis. Sun has put a lot of work into their Desk Suite programs, SunWrite, >SunDraw, etc. So far these programs are available _only_ in SunView versions. >The fact that they haven't released X versions seems to mean that: >a) they feel there is some marketing advantage to having only SunView versions > (since it means that users have to be on Suns, as opposed to X-terminals, > for instance). This would contradict the stated strategy of supporting X. > or >b) converting from SunView to X is trickier than they'd like us to think, even > using XView. > or >c) XView itself just doesn't work very well yet. >This is just speculation: anyone have any information? >Harry Bochner >bochner@endor.harvard.edu I can see why you might have gotten this impression; however, lack of XView "robustness" is not the reason that X versions of Paint, Write, and Draw have not been released. Sun{Paint, Write, and Draw} were co-developed by Island Graphics and Sun and the first version was released under the Sun label. Paint, Write, and Draw are now sold directly by Island Graphics. They may be reached at 800-255-4499 or 415-491-1000. As for your other speculations: a) X11/NeWS is now "the" Sun window platform. Checkout version 2; it is a major improvement over 1.0 and 1.0.1. b) We have received several complements on the script included with OpenWindows which does much of the conversion from SunView to XView. This will not give you a complete OpenLook look and feel; but, it will get you onto X quickly. c) XView 2 is robust and is now the main user interface toolkit used within Sun. Version 2 source is now available; see our today's announcement for details. It is being ported to several non-Sun platforms. Philip Robar Sun Microsystems Phone: (415) 336-1423 philr@eng.sun.com sun!knecht.eng!philr
jback@trine.East.Sun.COM (Joe Backo - PS Mgr Sun Washington) (08/14/90)
In article <3861@husc6.harvard.edu>, bochner@lange.harvard.EDU (Harry Bochner) writes: |> In article <1990Aug2.025858.14871@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au>, |> ant@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au (Anthony Murdoch) writes: |> > On another note, the press release mentions a new version of XView |> that makes |> > it easy to convert current SunView stuff to X11. How much easier ? |> I fiddled |> > with XView a month or so ago, and tried to convert mush to use XView. It |> > appeared to me that you would have to have about 5 years of |> experience in BOTH |> > X11 and SunView to have a hope of converting anything. |> |> I haven't tried it, but I'm rather suspicious about the robustness of XView, |> on the following basis. Sun has put a lot of work into their Desk Suite |> programs, |> SunWrite, SunDraw, etc. So far these programs are available _only_ in SunView |> versions. The fact that they haven't released X versions seems to mean that: ... stuff deleted... |> This is just speculation: anyone have any information? -- Harry; The "Desk Suite" programs you refer to have been transfered back to Island Graphics, their original creators. I spoke to Island Graphics last week, and they informed me that an OpenWindows (XView) version of SunWrite, SunPaint, and SunDraw is in the works - possible release in 1990. The OpenWindows 2.0 release has the same 14 DeskSet tools that are available in SunView (e.g. tapetool, printool, calendar manager, etc.). As for the "robustness of XView", the source code for XView 2.0 will being appearing on expo soon, why don't you try it? +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= =+=+=+=+ Joe Backo ARPA : jback@sun.com Sun Microsystems Internet: jback@sundc.East.Sun.COM 8219 Leesburg Pike Usenet : ...!uunet!sun!sundc!jback Suite #700 AT&T : (703) 883-0444 Vienna, VA 22180 FAX : (703) 893-0576 +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= =+=+=+=+
guy@auspex.auspex.com (Guy Harris) (08/15/90)
>a) X11/NeWS is now "the" Sun window platform.
I.e., it is now bundled with SunOS?philr@knecht.Sun.COM (Phil Robar) (08/16/90)
guy@auspex.auspex.com (Guy Harris) writes: >>a) X11/NeWS is now "the" Sun window platform. >I.e., it is now bundled with SunOS? OpenWindows will be included with all future SunOS releases. It will be the default window system for our SYSVR4 release and it will be the only Sun supplied windowing system in that release with which you will be able to build an application. Philip Robar Sun Microsystems Phone: (415) 336-1423 philr@eng.sun.com sun!knecht.eng!philr
laukee@canon.co.uk (David Lau-Kee) (08/16/90)
philr@knecht.Sun.COM (Phil Robar) writes: >guy@auspex.auspex.com (Guy Harris) writes: >>>a) X11/NeWS is now "the" Sun window platform. >>I.e., it is now bundled with SunOS? >OpenWindows will be included with all future SunOS releases. It will be the default window system for our SYSVR4 release and it will be the only Sun supplied windowing system in that release with which you will be able to build an application. [ hmm... Must be the new Sun5 keyboard - the one without the return key. Tip for users: try Ctl-M ] So what about GXP users... I guess they buy a glass tty? Are you seriously telling me that my $100K investment made less than a year ago is about to become obsolete? Get a grip and do the port... or buy it back and give me an MVX. ------------- David Lau-Kee Canon Research Centre Europe, 17/20 Frederick Sanger Rd, Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU25YD, UK. NRS: laukee@uk.co.canon, INET: laukee%canon@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk UUCP: laukee@canon.uucp, PATH: ..!mcsun!ukc!uos-ee!canon!laukee Tel: +44 (0) 483 574325 Fax: +44 (0) 483 574360
de5@STC06.CTD.ORNL.GOV (SILL D E) (08/16/90)
In article <140721@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> philr@knecht.Sun.COM writes: > >OpenWindows will be included with all future SunOS releases. It will >be the default window system for our SYSVR4 release and it will be the >only Sun supplied windowing system in that release with which you will >be able to build an application. Yeah, but when will Sun training classes switch to OpenWindows? -- Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov) Martin Marietta Energy Systems Workstation Support
guy@auspex.auspex.com (Guy Harris) (08/17/90)
>>I.e., it is now bundled with SunOS? > >OpenWindows will be included with all future SunOS releases. But not with all present SunOS releases (no, "it comes pre-installed on diskful machines" doesn't count)? If, as somebody else indicated, the RTU is free and the tape+documentation is cheap (i.e., the cost is basically media cost), that's not too bad, although it still does require some customers to make a conscious effort to get OW rather than just getting it with the OS.