rchao@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Chao) (04/24/91)
I have been working as aa programmer for a small software place for 4 years. I not only program but help design the software, do phone support, and help with documentation. I would like to move to a larger and/or more interesting company, doing perhaps the same things. However my resume has almost nothing. I got a BA in Linguistics with rather poor grades, and there are no other applicable jobs. Would you say that with 4 years of this experience (and several pay increases), that doesn't matter? In what way should I present my resume so that the experience comes out the most? When you send resumes to hiring companies, does one always also include reference letters? (The people here will most likely provide good ref. letters.) Should I emphasize the fact that I got several raises? I was also wondering if I should bother with taking a night course in Systems Analysis. SA is pretty much what I've been doing all these years, so some have told me it would be a waste. It would look good on my resume, but do I need it? -- Robert Chao Oakland, California
orville@weyrich.UUCP (Dr. Orville R. Weyrich) (04/24/91)
In article <24378@well.sf.ca.us> rchao@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Chao) writes: >I have been working as aa programmer for a small software place for 4 years. >I not only program but help design the software, do phone support, and help >with documentation. I would like to move to a larger and/or more interesting >company, doing perhaps the same things. >However my resume has almost nothing. I got a BA in Linguistics with rather >poor grades, and there are no other applicable jobs. Always accentuate your positive experience on the resume and down-play your weaknesses. If possible, adjust your resume for each prospect to stress those aspects of your background that you expect to be most important to that prospective employer. >Would you say that with 4 years of this experience (and several pay >increases), 4 years of "increasingly responsible" industry experience is certainly a good selling point. If your pay raises are significantly above cost-of-living, you may want to include your salary history [but note that some folks recommend against providing salary history information whenever possible -- you have to balance pro and con based on how good your raises are]. >that doesn't matter? In what way should I present my resume so that the >experience comes out the most? When you send resumes to hiring companies, >does one always also include reference letters? (The people here will most Especially effective is if one of your references knows someone of authority in the hiring company, and then writes a personalized letter to that person. Otherwise, some folks advise not providing names or letters until requested. But if your references are unusually good, balance that pro against the possible cons. >likely provide good ref. letters.) Should I emphasize the fact that I got >several raises? >I was also wondering if I should bother with taking a night course in >Systems Analysis. SA is pretty much what I've been doing all these years, >so some have told me it would be a waste. It would look good on my resume, >but do I need it? If the jobs you are applying for need some skill X, and you can't make a convincing case that your job experience included a significant X function which you did well, then try to add the education in X. In your case, you should be able to make a case on the basis of job experience in X = SA. If you are currently between jobs, now would be a good time to shore-up any gaps in your educational background, so that you can say at an interview that while you were out of work you did something to enhance your professional abilities, rather than sat at home and watched TV :-). -------------------------------------- ****************************** Orville R. Weyrich, Jr., Ph.D. Certified Systems Professional Internet: orville%weyrich@uunet.uu.net Weyrich Computer Consulting Voice: (602) 391-0821 POB 5782, Scottsdale, AZ 85261 Fax: (602) 391-0023 (Yes! I'm available) -------------------------------------- ******************************
valentin@btr.BTR.COM (Valentin Pepelea valentin@btr.com) (04/24/91)
In article <24378@well.sf.ca.us> rchao@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Chao) writes: > >I have been working as aa programmer for a small software place for 4 years. >I not only program but help design the software, do phone support, and help >with documentation. I would like to move to a larger and/or more interesting >company, doing perhaps the same things. > >However my resume has almost nothing. I got a BA in Linguistics with rather >poor grades, and there are no other applicable jobs. Would you say that with >4 years of this experience (and several pay increases), that doesn't matter? >In what way should I present my resume so that the experience comes out the >most? Try a format similar to this one: 1. Name and address. Include both home and work numbers. If you do not want to list your work number, make sure you have an answering machine at home. 2. Objective. Narrow down your subject. Since you've had many responsabilities during your 4 year term, you probably would be interested in several domains. In such a case adapt your objective to describe what you would like to do at the particular company you apply. Make sure you keep a copy of each resume variant you send. 3. Experience List in point form what you have accomplished in the past. List major projects, accomplishments and remarkable quialification. Something like: - Implemented an object oriented bug database that allows multiple users to access it simoultaneously from different parts of the country. - Established procedures for handling product returns, and coordinated shipping and handling efforts. - Saved the company $30000 by replacing the power-hungry Cray-1 with a 486 IBM-PC compatible bar code reader. Notice "coordinated shipping and handling efforts." As a grunt employee you had many opportunities to take the initiative in the company. Even if you were not a manager, you can still claim one's experiece for having "coordinated" one effort or another. Wonderful keyword. Potential employers also like to hear to you can save money, not just gobble it up. They'll love you for being an individual that seeks opportunities to save and improve, rather than suck resource like a typical power-user. 4. Education One line listing the years, College and title of your degree. On the second line, list the high-school degree and year of graduation. If you attended any other post high-school institution, list it in between. If your average in your last degree was below 3.25/4.0, do not list it at all. After so much industry experience, nobody cares anyway. 5. Previous employment This is a chronological rehash of the experience you gained, but not in the outstanding accomplishments format you did under #2. List the years, name of company and title you held there. Normally you would put three to five lines describing what your responsabilities were. Since you held only one relevant job, divide your 4 year term into two or three, the categories being the promotions or new titles you held in those periods. Perhaps you can divide it into responsabilities, since they probably shifted with the passing years. You should also list one-liners of your non-relevant jobs. Just to show that you took your life into your hands early on. 6. Sports & passtimes Physical and mental prowess can help you demonstrate you are a well rounded person. Two lines or so should do fine. 7. Other abilities Can you speak other languages? Can you touch-type? Can you memorize the cards that have been dealt at a black-jack table? Here you have the opportunity to list a talent that could catch your potential employer's attention. >When you send resumes to hiring companies, does one always also include >reference letters? (The people here will most likely provide good ref. >letters.) No. If you insists, add the line "References available upon request." at the bottom of your resume. >Should I emphasize the fact that I got several raises? We all get one every 6 or 12 months. And if we don't, we get another job, automatically getting a significant salary increase in the process. There's nothing out of the ordinary in getting several raises over 4 years. >I was also wondering if I should bother with taking a night course in >Systems Analysis. SA is pretty much what I've been doing all these years, >so some have told me it would be a waste. It would look good on my resume, >but do I need it? There's no point taking a course in what you already know. Au contraire, potential employers might interpret this as an indication that you have not yet mastered the subject, and therefore opted to take a course in it. Valentin -- "An operating system without virtual memory Name: Valentin Pepelea is an operating system without virtue." Phone: (408) 985-1700 Usenet: mips!btr!valentin - Ancient Inca Proverb Internet: valentin@btr.com
barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) (04/25/91)
In article <24378@well.sf.ca.us> rchao@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Chao) writes: >I have been working as aa programmer for a small software place for 4 years. >I not only program but help design the software, do phone support, and help >with documentation. I would like to move to a larger and/or more interesting >company, doing perhaps the same things. >However my resume has almost nothing. I got a BA in Linguistics with rather >poor grades, and there are no other applicable jobs. >Would you say that with 4 years of this experience (and several pay >increases), that doesn't matter? It's pretty common for software people to have bachelors degrees in other fields, so I don't think this would be held against you. There aren't many well-paying jobs in linguistics, so your choosing a different career can be understood. Many students become familiar with computers as a result of having used them as tools in their studies (or, these days, because they learned to program them before college), and it's an easy field to break into without much formal education. However, if you took computer courses during your undergraduate education, it would be good to mention them. >In what way should I present my resume so that the >experience comes out the most? Real-world experience is usually considered more significant than educational background. Some of the best programmers I've ever known didn't complete their undergraduate education (some went back later to complete it). However, to emphasize it, put your professional background ahead of the educational background section of the resume. Briefly describe the projects you've worked on. Include the size of the project (size of the program, number of developers, length of time spent) and the size and nature of your share of the work. > When you send resumes to hiring companies, >does one always also include reference letters? It's conventional to put "References furnished on request" on the resume. If a company is interested, they'll ask you for the names of your references, and contact them personally. I don't think including reference letters can hurt, although I seem to recall recommendations that resumes be kept brief (at most two pages). >Should I emphasize the fact that I got several raises? It's pretty standard to get one raise of 5-10% a year, so unless you got more than this, or your employer was not normally giving raises (perhaps due to financial problems) and was still giving you them, I don't think it would be considered significant. >I was also wondering if I should bother with taking a night course in >Systems Analysis. SA is pretty much what I've been doing all these years, >so some have told me it would be a waste. It would look good on my resume, >but do I need it? Four years of direct experience almost certainly beats anything you'd get from a night course, and employers know that. -- Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. barmar@think.com {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
orville@weyrich.UUCP (Dr. Orville R. Weyrich) (04/25/91)
In article <1991Apr24.170132.17267@Think.COM> barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes: >In article <24378@well.sf.ca.us> rchao@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Chao) writes: >>I was also wondering if I should bother with taking a night course in >>Systems Analysis. SA is pretty much what I've been doing all these years, >>so some have told me it would be a waste. It would look good on my resume, >>but do I need it? >Four years of direct experience almost certainly beats anything you'd get >from a night course, and employers know that. Four years of direct experience is certainly going to give a person more depth than a course. A good course will give a person a broader perspective than most single-employer on-the-job experiences. It is held in some circles that the best students are those who already have some real-world taste of the subject. This is part of the rational behind co-op programs. I certainly feel that my co-op experience was valuable in enhancing my formal education. I also find that many of my best students have had some real-world experience. I hope that most employers feel this way also. I don't know, other than that the last time I heard, employers consider co-op experience a plus. -------------------------------------- ****************************** Orville R. Weyrich, Jr., Ph.D. Certified Systems Professional Internet: orville%weyrich@uunet.uu.net Weyrich Computer Consulting Voice: (602) 391-0821 POB 5782, Scottsdale, AZ 85261 Fax: (602) 391-0023 (Yes! I'm available) -------------------------------------- ******************************
flak@mcgp1.UUCP (Dan Flak) (04/26/91)
barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes: > > When you send resumes to hiring companies, > >does one always also include reference letters? > > It's conventional to put "References furnished on request" on the resume. > If a company is interested, they'll ask you for the names of your > references, and contact them personally. I don't think including > reference letters can hurt, although I seem to recall recommendations that > resumes be kept brief (at most two pages). If you've caught my interest on the first page, I'll read the rest of the resume regardless of length, otherwise I won't even make it to page two. I don't count pages on resumes, although almost all of the successful resumes are one or two pages long. I don't "count" references or other enclosures "against" the page count. Personally, I'd say that references wouldn't hurt. -- Red Alert! Shields up! Arm photon torpedos! Lock phasers on target! Evasive, Mr. Sulu! Give me all she's got, Scotty! Spock, analysis? Uhura, open a hailing frequency.
cjkuo@locus.com (Chengi Jimmy Kuo) (04/27/91)
orville@weyrich.UUCP (Dr. Orville R. Weyrich) writes: >>that doesn't matter? In what way should I present my resume so that the >>experience comes out the most? When you send resumes to hiring companies, >>does one always also include reference letters? (The people here will most > Especially effective is if one of your references knows someone > of authority in the hiring company, and then writes a personalized > letter to that person. Otherwise, some folks advise not providing ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > names or letters until requested. But if your references are ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > unusually good, balance that pro against the possible cons. I've never really understood this. I've always given names of people at the company who already knew me. The concept I tried to portrayed was, "You will want me. And it's inevitable that you'll request the references." Outwardly, it might seem a little cocky. But the best way to get an offer is to go through a friend anyway. BTW, lots of people here are just getting out of school. Might I suggest something for the remainder of your time in school. MAKE AS MANY CONTACTS OF YOUR CLASSMATES AS YOU CAN! You don't have to be personal friends with everyone. Just a passing hello or casual conversations while you're in the computer lab. Anything! So, many people will recall your friendly nature when you happen across them in the future. People have commented about personalizing your resume to the company you're applying to. What better way to know a company than to know someone who works there? What better way to get the job than to have someone the company already trusts give you a thumbs up? Jimmy -- cjkuo@locus.com "The correct answer to an either/or question is both!"
msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) (05/04/91)
This topic has nothing in particular to do with computers, so I have directed followups to misc.jobs.misc > > .... Otherwise, some folks advise not providing > > names or letters until requested. ... > > I've never really understood this. I've always given names of people at the > company who already knew me. The concept I tried to portray was, "You will > want me. And it's inevitable that you'll request the references." That's exactly why you *shouldn't* give them. Remember, if you give your former boss Gillian as a reference, you're inviting the prospective employer to pursue it -- to phone Gillian and ask her how you were as an employee. You don't want this happening until both you and the prospective employer agree that it's likely you'll be joining them. Otherwise, if you're such a hot prospect, Gillian is going to be wasting her time answering many calls from companies whose offers you would have rejected anyway. And then what if she changes her mind about just how smart you are? This argument does not apply to letters of reference; the decision as to whether to include those or not is simply a subdivision of the "terse or detailed resume" issue. Some employers will like one, some the other. -- Mark Brader "The job of an engineer is to build systems that utzoo!sq!msb people can trust. By this criterion, there exist msb@sq.com few software engineers." -- John Shore This article is in the public domain.