REM%MIT-MC@sri-unix.UUCP (03/06/84)
From: Robert Elton Maas <REM @ MIT-MC> Well, last week I tried using the mouse on the Dandilion in Pat Suppes's office, and didn't like it. If I don't press hard enough, it slides instead of rolls, causing the cursor to just sit while I'm trying to move it. If I press too hard, the whole plastic mat slides across the table, and the mouse doesn't roll relative to it, it is dragging the mat along with it, and again the cursor just sits. The expert then said "you have to learn how to do it right, like driving a car". My reaction is a mouse isn't something a novice can just pick up and use correctly, so it isn't qualatively better than keystroke-cursor motion or other tools that need training and experience, although it may be quantitively better in needing less training. More on initial reation to mouse after some other problems are fixed so I can give it another try (after the CPU is fixed to not crash and the software is fixed to allow copying virtual-memories around so we don't have to spend 15 minutes booting from four floppies each time the program crashes and the 800-page Interlisp-D documentation arrives. Also if we had the fileserver up I'm told things would be more tolerable).
rpw3@fortune.UUCP (03/09/84)
#R:sri-arpa:-1725400:fortune:12600005:000:1958
fortune!rpw3 Mar 9 02:59:00 1984
I tried the mouse on the Apple Macintosh in an office supply store
the other day, and was generally favorably impressed with the feel
of the mouse, EXCEPT...
<<FLAME ON>>
...the damn ball is under the BACK of the mouse, not under the button!
Now look, folks, the whole point of the mouse is that it is a kinesthetic
extension of your body, like a pencil or a steering wheel or a screwdriver.
You're supposed to be able to use it naturally without thinking about it.
In the case of the mouse, since you use it to point with, that means that
you want the position of the cursor on the screen to track with where you
"fingers" are pointing, which happens to be somewhere near the tips of your
actual fingers, which in turn are comfortably (one hopes) draped over the
button(s). [Aside: I prefer multi-button mice, myself]
If the ball is at the other end of the mouse, that means a good bit
of misalignment whenever you make large motions, due to your arm pivoting
around your elbow. When trying to use MacPaint to draw with, it's "off"
just enough to be annoying. (I held the mouse "upside down", to check that
I was really feeling what I thought I was. Yup! It's easier to use that way,
except for the cord in the way and the button being weird to press :-)
It's been a couple of years, but I don't recall the mouse on the Xerox Alto II
having that problem.
Sure, the inside of the mouse is probably a little crowded under the button,
but the button actuating arm could have been cantilevered back to a switch
in the rear, if they really needed the room. It's a shame for them to have
put that much work into the "human factors" and then get bitten by this kind
of inattention to detail!
<<FLAME OFF>>
Rob Warnock "Otherwise, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
UUCP: {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3
DDD: (415)595-8444
USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive, Redwood City, CA 94065darrelj@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Darrel VanBuer) (03/10/84)
A previous note complained of the Macintosh mouse having the tracking ball
at the opposite end from the button, and (tentatively) recalling the Xerox
Alto had the ball under the buttons.
The mice in Xerox equipment have gone thru three generations on the Altos
and Dolphins.
1) back into antiquity (i.e. 10 years) they used a Hawley mouse with the
main ball under the buttons (actually requires levers, the switches are at
the other end)
2) about a year ago, Hawley turned the mouse around and took out the levers,
so the ball in not under the buttons.
3) Xerox has just switched to their own optical design (which works on
almost any textured surface, even a table cloth) which has the "ball" back
under the buttons again.
Mistracking from ball position may be slightly less for all Xerox mice
because the mouse is smaller than the Apple mice.
--
Darrel J. Van Buer, PhD
System Development Corp.
2500 Colorado Ave
Santa Monica, CA 90406
(213)820-4111 x5449
...{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3,trw-unix}!sdcrdcf!darrelj
VANBUER@USC-ECL.ARPAmsc@qubix.UUCP (Mark Callow) (03/11/84)
To: REM@MIT-MC
Do not put down mice in general because of your experience with one
kind of mouse.
I haven't used the Xerox mouse but I have heard that
there can be problems with the ball slipping as you describe.
However there are other kinds of mouse. I have been using a Mouse Systems
optical mouse for the last year or so. It is extremely easy to use.
Just move your wrist and the cursor follows the motion. It is impossible
for it to slip. It is certainly far better than cursor keys.
--
From the Tardis of Mark Callow
msc@qubix.UUCP, decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!mscmmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (03/13/84)
===========
I tried the mouse on the Apple Macintosh in an office supply store
the other day, and was generally favorably impressed with the feel
of the mouse, EXCEPT...
<<FLAME ON>>
...the damn ball is under the BACK of the mouse, not under the button!
Now look, folks, the whole point of the mouse is that it is a kinesthetic
extension of your body, like a pencil or a steering wheel or a screwdriver.
You're supposed to be able to use it naturally without thinking about it.
===========
The Macintosh mouse is the only one I have used for more than a few
minutes, so perhaps I lack the notion of what a "good" mouse should
feel like. But I find that the mouse DOES feel like a kinaesthetic
extension of my arm. "Up" on the screen is "out" from the elbow, and
sideways is a wrist movement. I find little difficulty in single pixel
control, and really don't seem to think about the mouse much at all.
It just does what I think I want on the screen, without my worrying
about how to move my hand. I move the cursor instead, in spite of the
fact the the movement on the table-top is at all sorts of odd angles
when I actually look at the mouse.
The others I have used have been three-button (also 4-button puck on
a drawing tablet), and I find that the context-sensitive one-button
control is easier to deal with unconsciously than the multi-button
system. Of course, it's all a matter of what you are used to ....
--
Martin Taylor
{allegra,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmtclark.wbst@PARC-MAXC.ARPA (03/13/84)
Assuming you are talking about your first encounter with a mouse, I may be able to help a little... 1) If the mat gets dirty, the ball seems to 'stick'. I use a plastic notebook cover (shiny, but others use mat finish) and after a while a quick washing works wonders. I use alcohol because it is handy, even though it is not good for the plastic. I would expect water to be good to. 2) I have used a mouse with the ball in the back... it was terrible. I could not control it well at all, and had the 'no move' problem because my fingers were on the front but the ball in the back! So the pressure was in the wrong place. 3) If you use a pad made out of the wrong material the mouse gets gunked up. paper gets paper fibers. People also use typwriter mats (real dense foam) and after a while the ball has a perfect coating of rubber that makes it work real bad. This happened on my notebook cover only after a couple of years. It must then be taken apart and cleaned real good with isopropyl alchohol - no lubricants or anything that can leave a residue. Be VERY VERY careful if you try this. If you bend the little wires you are out of luck. I (obviously) am a mouse fan, and have never had any trouble from day one, so I tend to attribute problems to mice that are 'broke' either by design or condition. --Ray