marsh@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Ralph J. Marshall) (03/25/88)
It seems to me that this group should also be addressing the problems faced by people who are not computer literate at any level, and thus are in severe danger of becoming part of a permanent underclass in our society. I think it will become increasingly difficult to get a decent job in this country if you are unable to even USE a computer, let alone program one. Yet this is the same country where we have unbeliveable rates of high-school drop-outs who are often unable to even read English well enough to understand on-screen prompts and instructions. An example of this occurred last night (althoug it was admittedly not typical of the main problem I forsee). I was in line at an ATM waiting for the man at the head of the line to complete his transaction. He was apparently a recent Asian immigrant who spoke fairly good English (certainly better than I speak any Asian languages :-)) but seemed unable to understand the prompts to withdraw cash. The guy behind him helped him through the process, but it made me wonder about the future for people who are _already_ short of skills needed to find a job. What will happen to them as everyday life requires more technical understanding, and what will happen to our society as a larger and larger section of the populace is disenfranchised ? These are serious problems caused at least in part by the wide-spread use of computers, and I don't have any obvious answers. Anybody else have some encouraging words, or suggestions as to what might be done to avoid dooming large numbers of people to menial labor or unemployment in a workplace with fewer and fewer 'traditional' jobs ? Ralph
klg@dukeac.UUCP (Kim Greer) (03/30/88)
Ralph Marshall writes: > It seems to me that this group should also be addressing the problems > faced by people who are not computer literate at any level, and thus > are in severe danger of becoming part of a permanent underclass in our > society... Ralph, I think you answered part of your question yourself: > Yet this is the same country where we have unbeliveable rates of > high-school drop-outs who are often unable to even read English well > enough to understand on-screen prompts and instructions. My response is that if someone does not like the state they are in they should do something to change it. Let's ignore for now the people who really, truely are incapable of "using computers". I believe that most people who are at least a little a bit literate can, with _a little help_, perform virtually anything necessary on a computer in their day to day life. Note that I did not say they will become experienced assembly language programmers overnight. In your posting, your example was the ATM. If the man cannot use the ATM, maybe he should actually go in the bank ( yes, people still _actually_ go in banks :) ) and ask the employees for some instructions. I think this is usually offered by the bank when accounts are set up anyway for ATMs. Anyway, my point is : If someone is "disenfranchised" from using computers because they can't read, let them learn how to read. All through high school, I saw the people roaming the hallways causing disturbances during classtime and who now I'm sure are incapable of doing anything with their lives...because they are semi-literate at best and are generally ignorant (ie, uneducated). Is this my fault? No. They made their decisions; I made mine. As I said, this may seem harsh. I don't want to deny anyone their fair share of life's rewards. But ! people are generally able to do anything they really want to. People are responsible for making their lives what they wish them to be. Others cannot, and generally should not, do this for them, outside of making available the opportunity to do so. Kim L. Greer
shani@TAURUS.BITNET (Oren Shani) (04/04/88)
Ralph Marshall wrote: > It seems to me that this group should also be addressing the problems > faced by people who are not computer literate at any level, and thus > are in severe danger of becoming part of a permanent underclass in our > society. I'm glad you are out there to defend the weak, but I belive the problem is not that big - or at least may be reduced easily, by making sure that the children of today will be ready to the world of tommorow (And there's a lot more in that then just knowing how to use a computer)... ...People all over the world, including myself, are working on it... so hang on! Oren Shani ps: Once I will have practical ideas and plans, I promise to send them on the net.
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) (04/04/88)
Ralph J. Marshall wrote: > ... I think it will become increasingly difficult to get a decent job > in this country if you are unable to even USE a computer, let alone > program one....dooming large numbers of people to menial labor or > unemployment in a workplace with fewer and fewer 'traditional' jobs ? The phrase "use a computer" is ill-defined. In many ways computers are becoming easier and easier for non-specialists to use. Functional literacy is often optional. Is the claim that people won't be able to get jobs as cashiers because they don't know how to run a light pen over a package? Seems improbable. That people won't be able to get jobs as bank tellers unless they're taught to use the bank's terminals? Sounds familiar, but not alarming. It seems to me that the sum total of the argument is that ex-steelworkers and ex-carpenters and ex-automobile-workers are not going to get middle management jobs if they are not computer literate. And, sure enough, they aren't getting them. Of course, other people *are* getting them. > ... it made me wonder about the future for people who are _already_ short > of skills needed to find a job. There aren't large numbers of jobs (on a national scale) going begging because people don't have the skills to fill them. It would be nice if there were. So until more jobs are created, giving people who are "already short of skills" the requisite skills is the democratic thing to do -- it would increase the number of people in competition for the scarce good jobs -- but it wouldn't decrease the number of people going *without* those jobs. Dani Zweig