thom@dewey.soe.Berkeley.EDU (Thom Gillespie) (06/28/90)
I once used a program from Mecc to teach pre-schools how to program in LOGO -- read draw pretty pictures, they weren't ready for list processing, they couldn't read. After about an hour a little 5 year old created a program to draw a house and then -- on her own -- figured out that she could make another program to call that program and then move the cursor and create a village. I'm sitting there thinking, "this kid is doing recursion, do I tell her what she's doing?" I didn't, I just gave her a couple of Hershey's Kisses and told her not to get chocolate all over the keyboard. I've taught pre-schoolers to program in LOGO, I've taught grade school kids to program in LOGO and Forth to run robots, I've taught jr. high & high schoolers to program with TV animation packages, I've taught gifted and talented kids to program in Pascal, I've taught college aged kids/adults to program in C, Pascal & BASIC -- I always use graphics and sound to begin and I always encourage game design for projects. I've never had a kid say they wanted to use the computer as a tool, no kids ever said they wanted to use a word processor first, they want to control the machine and that means programming. Kids live up or down to our expectations. In an ideal world ( with lots of Macs) I'd start everyone with HyperCard/Talk. In a less than ideal world I'd start everyone with LOGO. Kids learn in spite of us. Good luck; it should be fun for all. Thom Gillespie
reggie@dinsdale.paradyne.com (George W. Leach) (06/28/90)
We are talking about grades K-->8. Obviously, those in the higher grades are far better equiped to learn some of these aspects of computing. But waiting until high school won't kill them. I felt rather fortunate that I had a course in BASIC in my senior year of high school (1975), but somehow quite a few people in the industry somehow managed without it. > I think it's time we stopped thinking of computers as unimportant and > started teaching about them like we do the telephone.. I didn't say they are unimportant. I'm saying that these kids have other basic skills to learn like reading, spelling, math, basic science, etc...., that should come first. There are enough indicators showing that our schools don't do a very good job of teaching these basics. If we can improve upon that situation by utilizing computers to augment the teacher in the classroom to improve the situation, then I am all for it. Using the computer as a tool to aid this process is sufficient to make them comfortable with one and will set the stage for students to learn programming, if they so desire later. Being comfortable with computers is something I think should be a goal. Not everyone is equiped to program, nor should everyone learn how to program in order to use these machines. Besides we gotta keep the ranks of programmers low, so we don't have as much competition for jobs :-) And if we are going to be concerned about adding to the curriculum, what about learning a second language? In Europe, it is quite common for school age children to be learning a second language at an early age. Here we wait until high school. In many parts of the US, it would be quite an asset to know Spanish, wouldn't it? > If you don't teach [children] about things like computer ethics at a > young age, they will learn about it somewhere else.. Teaching ethics in the schools is certainly something that is desirable. There are a number of other important social skills that should be taught there as well, eg. parenting. It is unfortunate that this is necessary. The family should be responsible for instilling a sense of ethics in a child that would carry over into any walk of life. The reality of the situation is that more often than not, this is not the case. > The computer is as much a part of everyday life now as the telephone and > electricity. Let's not hide it away just cause we don't feel comfortable > with it. No, I beg to differ with you here. Sure embedded microprocessors are as much a part of everyday life as the telephone and electricity, but not the PC. The telephone and electricity are essential, but not the PC. I read something the other day in a newspaper or some data communications trade rag about an attempt in Illinois to set up a network among a select number of grade schools throughout the state. It was not clear what the purpose was or what they were going to do with it. There was a statement made by one person, I forget if this was a politician or educator, to the effect that we are training these kids to enter the job market in ten to fifteen years. They need training in computers, because even McDonalds is using computers in their operations :-) Nice to have high goals, isn't it? George W. Leach
clc@edison.cho.ge.com (Clark Coleman) (06/29/90)
To all who are interested in this subject, I recommend the book "Mind
Over Machine" by Stuart and Hubert Dreyfus. My summary would be that
computers in elementary schools do more harm than good, and the
tendency is to reduce subject matter to the level of the computer.
For example, art, music composition and poetry writing tend to be
taught in a manner suited to the available educational software,
and are thus seen by children in grossly degenerate form.
Disagree if you will, but note :
1) Read the book first.
2) I am working on my Ph.D. in Computer Science, so don't accuse
me of being anti-computer, Luddite, afraid of technology, etc.
3) A strong impetus behind the use of computers in education is
the profit motive of the vendors of the hardware and software,
who want the marketplace of tomorrow hooked on their brand of
computer today.
4) Most educational reformers criticize aspects of our school
systems that would take little money to fix (i.e. too much
paperwork and bureaucracy, too much fluff in the curriculum,
overcentralized school administrations). The "improvements"
that are always shoved at us are always the most expensive:
computers, higher pay, smaller class sizes, etc. Where there
is a lot of money, there are vested interests pushing the issue
to the forefront of public attention, such as teachers' unions,
school administrators, and computer vendors. Beware their
self-interest and bias. And hold on to your wallet.
Clark Colemannancy@limbo.Intuitive.Com (Nancy Louie) (06/30/90)
Kids these days are probably smarter than you think. They also respond to positive feedback and encouragement. Especially when they may not get it in the home. (We just don't live in the June and Ward Cleaver society anymore. Kids don't always have the happy household to go home to ....) It may have helped her to know that she was demonstrating some of the aspects of "real" programming. You may not have had to gone into detail, but imagine it if you were in her place, the teacher sees what your doing and says "Thom, that's wonderful! You've figured out one of the basic tools that a computer programmer uses to work! Would you like to try some other things? Why don't you try to make xxxx happen? I'll come back in a few minutes to see how you're doing and if you want/need any help, just ask, ok?" Kinda makes you feel good inside. Especially if you're pre-5 years old. Thom Gillespie comments: > I've never had a kid say they wanted to use the computer as a tool, no > kids ever said they wanted to use a word processor first, they want > to control the machine and that means programming. Kids live up or down > to our expectations. Here I agree. Kids of that age always try to live up to their parents expectations. It's later in life that they start to rebel. I think the more important issue here is *how* they are encouraged to learn. Younger children with shorter attention spans tend to find pictures and games the better medium to learn through. It makes learning fun for them. Everyone learns better and retains the material longer when they enjoy learning it. There's nothing wrong with starting the children out slow. What you don't want to necessarily do is to assume that "Gee, since these are sixth graders, I think we should start learning how to prgram in BASIC first. We'll get into the graphics and games later." Not all students want to learn how to program, however, getting them *comfortable* around a computer so that they're no longer afraid of them and would be willing to possibly learn a few programs later in life would be great. Getting them used to the changes in society right now is much more important than making sure they can write 3000 lines of BASIC code to do data analysis of their class. My father hated computers. (Too bad since his daughter tutored high school students and adults in computer programming and all.) Using some of the applications available on the computer would have helped him to do his job much more efficiently and make him feel ess rushed at the office. If he had been exposed to using computers earlier in life, he probably wouldn't have been as paranoid about them as he was. Wouldn't that be a good goal to shoot for? Regarding some of the comments from George Leach, I agree that learning is done in stages. K-4 grades don't "need" to learn about programming yet. Although, if there are some students who show an aptitude and an interest for learning programming skills, this shouldn't be prevented either. My first programming class was in the summer of my seventh grade year. We learned WATFIV Fortran on cards. (Blech, I'll never miss those card readers ....) I didn't have space in my school schedule to take another programming class until 10th grade, though I ran grading programs the previous years to calculate grades and scores for students in our department. My two older sisters went through a "schedule" very similar to mine. Neither of them works in the computer field. In fact, both are fairly far from the field. They're both far from being computer illiterate, but they *chose* not to pursue a career in computers. Whatever we teach the children, we have to remember that what they ultimately do with their lives is their decision. We merely provide them with various avenues to explore before making that decision so that they can at least make an informed decision, and aren't just forced to take one avenue because that's the only one available. When I tutored high school mathematics, there were students that I worked with who were trying to learn material which they could barely read. For many, it was the second (or third) time that they had taken the class, and this was only Algebra 2. The students taking Trig and Calculus had much higher aptitudes for learning, and were also more interested in getting further in life? How can you motivate students to want to learn so that they'll *want* to "get ahead" in life? Emphasizing the basic R's when the students are young will definitely go a long way towards this. Using the computer to augment this training and hopefully make it more enjoyable to learn may just help us to increase the literacy ratio in this country. It's amazing how much easier it is to learn when you can actually read and comprehend what you're trying to learn ... Actually, learning a second language might actually be a good use for the computers. I started taking french lessons in first grade through the MGM program. A small group of us had one hour a week of french lessons instead of the normal curriculum. This went on until sixth grade. In high school, I took up german for three years. I still remember a fair amount of both. But having the exposure to the language makes it much easier for me to pick up the vocabulary again since I'm already familiar with the grammatical structure. We used to write programs which would drill us on our vocab words for our language classes in high school. Something along these lines, perhaps incorporating pictures and such might be great for teaching younger children a foreign language. They'll tend to have an easier time learning the same language in junior high or high school. Finally, people learn ethics in all walks of life. The basis for teaching these is providing good role models and the support needed by the children if something happens that makes them confused about what's right or wrong. If the adults that the children interact are open to talking with the children, they'll pick up the skills on their own. Let's face it. Children learn by imitation. Nancy Louie
huff@agnes.acc.stolaf.edu (Charles Huff) (06/30/90)
The best people to get in touch with about resources in educational sotware is: Computer Learning Foundation P.O. Box 60967 Palo Alto, CA 94306-0967 They review lots of software in K-12 and in college. They have done stuff jointly with EDUCOM, and hand out prizes to the "best" educational software in various categories. Their reviews are (I think) the most reliable. I have one suggestion. Make sure that the stuff the kids learn is stuff that they can use (and will have the opportunity to use) in their other class endeavors. Otherwise, the computer become "the thing we use on Fridays" and not a real part of their education. For example, using spreadsheets to track environmental issues (as linked to what they are studying in their science studies). Chuck
daveb@comspec.uucp (Dave Berman) (07/07/90)
Dear Terri and Other Readers -
Here are my gut reactions so far.
1. I am concerned about the very short class time.
Having (say) 20 minutes to talk, and then 20 minutes for practical hands
on, only once each week... wow, that could be the kiss of death to almost
any subject. I fear that by accepting these restrictions, and not doing
something to artificially augment the class time (say, computer club), you
could be setting yourself up for failure, or at least, much frustration.
If computers were more like hammers, staplers, telephones, or banking
machines, your task would be lighter. Computers are so general purpose and
open ended. Look at all of the choices for what to learn, what to teach:
Programming? Using? Machine Centred? Human Centred? Culture Centred? Fast?
Slow? Boring? Etc? Not Etc?
I RECOMMEND YOU ADDRESS THIS TIME PROBLEM:
a) Try to double your available class times, to twice per week. Even this
could reduce the wear and tear on you (you all). You who must prepare
day plans, weighted tests, and otherwise, make sure the kids learn
something which can be measured at the end of the term.
b) Reduce your expectations to the mere skeleton of what you might have
been considering at the outset. What thought on computers would you
convey, so that it is remembered until next week, with only 20 minutes
to elaborate? ^^^^^^^^^^
c) Discipline will be important for both you and the young students. In
Toronto's public schools, even the best and strongest teachers have
trouble maintaining order in class enough to make their point(s).
Computer hands on classes have these problems more so since (with some
arrangements) the students have permission to work on (and work out)
their problems/assignments, so they *Talk*To*One*Another* while their
teacher is trying to address the other half of the class. *Beware* a
40 minute class each week leaves very little room for a wasted week
due to disorder. (Your plan to have the teacher around is a good idea.
At my seminars, I try to conscript as many helpers as possible to
circulate). May I suggest: 15 minutes to the Entire Class, 15 minutes
to group A students hands on, then 15 minutes group B students hands
on (the alternate group prepares what they will do when the get to the
machine next).
2. Random Ideas
a) Do you want to introduce the young ones to lots and lots of stuff?
This could work of you don't try to teach them how to actually use lots
and lots of stuff. (I don't like the lots and lots concept)
b) Do you want them to use the programs you teach at school, at home?
Then use reliable(*) Shareware, or Public Domain programs instead of
commercial stuff. The cost will be *significantly* less, and no one will
get in trouble when you distribute copies to (interested) students
according the author's rules (such as, include the entire distribution
disk). EDUCORP comes to mind.
* Reliable: Order your shareware from the author, or from very safe
legitimate sources. You don't want "Viruses, Computer" on the
curriculum. When you get copies of software 'from a friend', you can be
getting contacts from all of the 'acquaintances' your friend has met.
C-STDs: Computer Software Transmitted Diseases.
c) Will the children be saving their work?
Be sure the school store has reliable and economical disks for sale in
single units (not entire boxes, neccesarily).
d) Consider Experienced Students as Helpers
This could do all participants much good. If you could plan the right
benefits for the Helpers (in our school, years ago, such helpers were
given evening and weekend access to the system for their assistance).
e) Plan how the room(s) will be arranged with care
1) Do you want the computers around the outside edge? Or do you want all
of the students to look toward the front of the class? Are the desks
going to have enough clear space for papers with prepared notes near
the computers?
2) Anti theft gadgets been considered? Stolen equipment can ruin your
plans. So can lost or stolen program disks.
3) How many printers are in the room? Do you have any ideas on how to
handle the rush at the end of the class when everyone wants to print
their work out? One product for helping you: simple device for
connecting many computers to one printer (We here manufacture one
called 'Microshare'). Another product: the printer buffer, takes a
print job from the computer very quickly so the printer can take its
time printing it (so the next student prints, then the next, then the
next... we make one of these as well...)
4) Electricity. Make sure the entire workstation (computer, screen,
printer, any-thing-else-connected) are also plugged into the same
circuit, as close as possible together. I recommend a single power
bar (switched power outlet strip) for each individual workstation. If
you can afford it, get the good ones with some surge protection
against Power anomalies.
5) Are the units connected together already into any 'network' or
something? Would it help you if it were (or if it weren't)? Good
things about networks are: programs sit on a central computer which
serves it out to the other stations, one software installation is
often enough to set it up for the entire class. Bad things list is
much longer: the system becomes much more UnReliable, the computer(s)
won't run exactly as they would have without the network, someone is
going to have to care for 'network administration' (keeping and
changing of passwords, classrooms, allowed files, cleaning shared
disk space, and other sundry headaches), electrical troubles affect
the entire network (not just one station).
I could continue, but I think I have said plenty already. (I wonder what
flames will come to me...). I will watch comp.society weekly for what happens
here, or EMail or Fax to get me more reliably.
I hope this is practical for you, Terri. Let me know.
Dave Berman
uunet!mnetor!becker!comspec!davebthom@dewey.soe.Berkeley.EDU (Thom Gillespie) (07/07/90)
Everything Dave Berman had to say is true at some level but the focus seemed to be more on managing the kids than teaching them. The key thing to remember when you teach kids with/about computers is that 'you' aren't the focus, the more you lecture, the less they learn. I've always encouraged them talking more than me, and them copying from their neighbors, I call it learning from their neighbors. If you are excited about computers than they'll be excited about learning ... still copy out Dave's list, there's nothing worse than network problems and power strip blow out. If your lucky, you'll have a kid who'll show you how to work around the problems. Thom Gillespie