a323@mindlink.UUCP (Rob McMurtry) (09/11/90)
I'm researching ISDN (International Services Digital Network) for a college course, and I'd like to hear (read) some feedback on what people expect from this technology. A few years back the bandwidth of ISDN seemed awesome (2 x 64k-bit, 1 x 16k-bit) but it's beginning to appear a little pale in the face of full motion video etc. that is integral with multimedia. The projected cost of ISDN in the U.S. is around $120 billion (communications is a $640 billion/year business). What do we want to see for this kind of investment? ISDN offers some convenient features for phones (callback, distinctive ringing etc.) but what about computers? What would YOU do with 131,000 baud? ISDN doesn't require modems, so transmission will remain entirely within the digital realm. This is important, as it prevents the degradation that occurs when data is converted from digital-->analog-->digital. Apple has been supporting ISDN, they recently announced an ISDN addtion to the communications toolbox, so maybe the only thing we'll have to get used to is speed and added functionality... Also, consider fiber optics, with a bandwidth of 500 million k-bits/sec! Any ideas? Please feel free to email any responses. I will submit a summary of responses if things prove interesting. Rob McMurtry
rodney@solar.card.inpu.oz.au (Rodney Campbell) (09/12/90)
Rob McMurtry asks about ISDN: > I'm researching ISDN (International Services Digital Network) ... It is Integrated Services Digital Network. > ... A few years back the bandwidth of ISDN seemed awesome (2 x 64k-bit, > 1 x 16k-bit) but it's beginning to appear a little pale in the face of > full motion video etc. that is integral with multimedia. This 2B + D is the secondary rate or micro link which will hopefully be used to service each and every house with a phone service. What you will get in the home is an ISDN box to which you may attach any ISDN terminal or if you have existing equipment without an ISDN interface you can use an ISDN terminal adaptor. This in effect gives you 2 x 64Kbit separate lines for use with : Phone, Computer, FAX, Still Images, etc... The D channel (16Kbits) is used for signalling and control. There has been some ideas that this underused channel should be used for off-peak data transmission. There is also the 30B + 2D Primary rate or MacroLink option which will service larger transfer requirements. ISDN is NOT front edge technology - the plans for ISDN have been arround for years - it has just taken this long for its approval and stabilisation. It is merely a stepping stone to the future. Rodney Campbell
herrickd@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Daniel Lance Herrick) (09/14/90)
Rob McMurtry writes: > The projected cost of ISDN in the U.S. is around $120 billion > (communications is a $640 billion/year business). What do we want to > see for this kind of investment? *We* are not spending this money. Our telephone system suppliers are spending it for the purpose of making more money by providing you with better, more flexible service. The convenient features are available from the software in current central offices and are not related to ISDN. With ISDN, you could build a national network of fiber optic channels and then sell people bandwidth. But AT&T and MCI and US Sprint have already done this. You could lay a few under the Atlantic, and sell trans- Atlantic communications without the annoying satellite transmission delay, but someone is ahead of you there, too. Your network address does not tell me what school or town you are in, however, you should have access to a reasonable technical library. Browse through the last two or three years of the journals published by the IEEE Communications Society, expecially the one with a title like "Selected Topics in Communications". You will find some things you can understand scattered among the things that are intended only for insiders. The telephone long distance network has been mostly digital for several years, now. The conversion is taking place along with the conversion to "equal access" forced by the court decision that broke up the Bell System. That digital network has lots of bandwidth designed in to take care of peak loads of telephone conversations. That bandwidth could carry other traffic when the voice traffic is lower than the design peak. Hence, various standards bodies are specifying the "Integrated Services Digital Network" that will mix other traffic, such as digital communications between computers and video signals, with the voice messages on the same network. Daniel Lance Herrick
acmpres@zeus.unomaha.edu (Dave Caplinger) (09/19/90)
Daniel Lance Herrick wrote: > *We* are not spending this money. Our telephone system suppliers are > spending it for the purpose of making more money by providing you with > better, more flexible service. The convenient features are available > from the software in current central offices and are not related to ISDN. Additionally, I suppose that if Plan 9 works out well, ISDN would provide a transport for it (well into the future). Then, ISDN would allow new "small" businesses to provide CPU-server and file-server services to the public (meaning people w/ ISDN in their homes/businesses) at large, for a fee of course. :-) Well, ok, perhaps I should say that "something like Plan 9", perhaps (!) with an interface more palatable to "the common user" could succeed in this environment. (I imagine something similar to Prodigy, hopefully more like America Online, or we're going to be really demented, something like US West's CommunityLink project [but God, I hope not].) Dave Caplinger
acmpres@zeus.unomaha.edu (Dave Caplinger) (09/25/90)
Daniel Lance Herrick notes: > *We* are not spending this money. Our telephone system suppliers are > spending it for the purpose of making more money by providing you with > better, more flexible service. The convenient features are available > from the software in current central offices and are not related to ISDN. Additionally, I suppose that if Plan 9 works out well, ISDN would provide a transport for it (well into the future). Then, ISDN would allow new "small" businesses to provide CPU-server and file-server services to the public (meaning people w/ ISDN in their homes/businesses) at large, for a fee of course. :-) Well, ok, perhaps I should say that "something like Plan 9", perhaps (!) with an interface more palatable to "the common user" could succeed in this environment. (I imagine something similar to Prodigy, hopefully more like America Online, or we're going to be really demented, something like US West's CommunityLink project [but God, I hope not].) Dave Caplinger
gast@CS.UCLA.EDU (David Gast) (10/02/90)
Daniel Lance Herrick notes: >> *We* are not spending this money. Our telephone system suppliers are >> spending it If the telcos are spending the money, you can bet they are charging us. It all goes in the rate base. If you don't or can't use the features, you will pay anyway. Now it is true that the telcos charge extra for ISDN, but the last the time I saw the rates, they were extremely cheap--that is, less than the cost of regular service. Dave Caplinger writes: > I imagine something similar to Prodigy ... The risks-digest has had a number of messages regarding the risks of using Prodigy. Let's just say that I would not pay to use such a system. Perhaps you would like ISDN so Prodigy can send those commercials even faster. geo@syd.dit.csiro.au writes: > ISDN can be used to extend the local area networks we use. International > file servers can be used from the comfort of your own home as the wire > you currently use for the telephone can be the protocol connection of > tomorrow. I can, of course, access international machines now if I want to pay the international long distance charges--charges that the FCC recently said were exhorbitant. > The "Caller Identification" can be used to retrieve all the details > of the last pizza you ordered. Same again? With Caller-Id the same can happen without ISDN, so once again ISDN, per se, does not offer much. Further, Caller-Id (whether or not implemented in ISDN) has been ruled illegal in some jurisdictions and is a terrible system which invades the privacy of the caller. While I can provide further details, suffice it to say in this example "what if I don't want the pizza place to know what pizza I ordered the last time or if there has even been a last time." If I walk in, they probably don't know so why should they be entitled to extra information because I use a phone? David Gast
peter@ficc.ferranti.com (peter da silva) (10/02/90)
Advantages of ISDN #1: no more converting digital data to analog, which then gets digitized for transmission, then converted back to analog at the other end, and finally runs through a DSP to convert it to digital. This is a practice that makes computerfax look sane! David Gast notes: > Further, Caller-Id has been ruled illegal in some jurisdictions ...in error, IMHO... > and is a terrible system which invades the privacy of the caller. ...as opposed to the current system, where anyone can anonymously invade my privacy at any time... > While I can provide further details, suffice it to say in this example > "what if I don't want the pizza place to know what pizza I ordered the > last time or if there has even been a last time." Make a private call (either through cancel-caller-ID, or by routing the call through the operator or the long-distance service of your choice). When was the last time you ordered a pizza without giving them your address and phone number anyway? Peter da Silva
tmurphy@athena.mit.edu (Thomas C Murphy) (10/02/90)
David Gast wrote:
> Further, Caller-Id has been ruled illegal in some jurisdictions ...
Where was caller-ID ruled illegal? I must be missing something
somewhere. Personally, I like the idea of such a system.
Christopher Murphyherrickd@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Daniel Herrick) (10/03/90)
David Gast responds to my article wherein I noted: >> *We* are not spending this money. Our telephone system suppliers are >> spending it with the comment: > If the telcos are spending the money, you can bet they are charging us. > It all goes in the rate base. If you don't or can't use the features, > you will pay anyway. Now it is true that the telcos charge extra > for ISDN, but the last the time I saw the rates, they were extremely > cheap--that is, less than the cost of regular service. The Integrated Services Digital Network is provided by the long distance companies. Access to it can be mediated by the local exchange carrier, but does not have to be. Any company with sixteen to eighteen phone lines can go around the local exchange carrier directly to the switch of the long distance company. If you can find about sixteen neighbors who would like to spend less on long distance (a nickel a minute less) you can form a co-op and run your own connection directly to the long distance company switch. The point is, the local exchange carrier is indeed a protected monopoly with prices set the way you describe. The long distance carriers are not, their pricing is driven by the marketplace. Most of the capital investment in ISDN is being done by the long distance carriers. I would be delighted to help tear down the monopoly of the local exchange carrier. If there is anyone out there who is intrigued by the idea of setting up a neighborhood telephone system, communicate with me, we can work out the details and figure out if it is worth fooling with. (The technical details would work. You might be so far from the long distance company's switch that the wire would cost too much.) Daniel Lance Herrick
geo@syd.dit.csiro.au (George Bray) (10/09/90)
David Gast writes: >> The "Caller Identification" can be used to retrieve all the details >> of the last pizza you ordered. Same again? > If I walk in, they probably don't know so why should they be > entitled to extra information because I use a phone? I agree with you David. Caller ID can be used for good and bad things. I'm not starting another "Caller ID" thread here, just mentioning that's one of ISDNs facilities. FYI, Caller ID costs an additional $200 on a Basic ISDN line in Australia. George Bray
rjg@cs.aber.ac.uk (Bob Gautier) (10/13/90)
If I were using ISDN to take orders for my pizza parlour, I wouldn't do it using speech only. I'd also offer a software package, freely copyable, which would provide an interactive pizza design and ordering facility. This would, for example: a) Offer the full menu b) Allow people to design pizzas by choosing items and combining them c) Allow people to store their favourite designs d) Send orders to me when completed e) Possibly even allow progress chasing, or notification of dispatch via a callback f) Periodically update itself as I change my prices, menu, etc. This software would be an example of an ``electronic shop''. Instead of visiting a real shop to buy something, I visit a piece of software instead. This has various benefits all round. For example: a) Calls are shorter (not important for cost, but possibly important for reducing congestion on my line and my customer's lines). Customers can take as long as they like creating an order without tying up my staff or anyone's communications link. b) Privacy doesn't have to be compromised (personal data can be stored locally -- you can do ``same again'' ordering without caller-ID). Of course, some personal data has to be released in some cases, in order to make payments or to set up callbacks. c) It opens up a new piece of ground for competition amongst service providers. Naturally, I want *my* pizza ordering facility to be the friendliest, most flexible, most fun piece of software to use -- certainly I want it to be the most popular *pizza ordering* software! This will create a demand for nice interactive software of a fairly ephemeral nature -- like video games without the hard real time problems. Bob Gautier
geo@syd.dit.csiro.au (George Bray) (10/23/90)
Bob Gautier suggests an interractive pizza parlour interface allowing the hungry recipient to prepare their order offline using a freeware catalogue. One of the features was: > ... Send orders to me when completed Quite possible given the uptake of EDI (Electronic Document Interchange) technology. Once you have your order complete, the pizza interface would send a request for quotation to all the local parlours, which would respond with the cost and estimated delivery time of your order. Once ordered, your bank account would be debited instantly. Another feature: > ... Periodically update itself as I change my prices, menu, etc. > > This software would be an example of an ``electronic shop''. Instead of > visiting a real shop to buy something, I visit a piece of software instead. > This has various benefits all round. Here is a fundamental difference between : o Distributing a Catalogue for Offline Shopping and o Connecting to a live network that is always changing. In a wider example where you might want to browse ALL take-out foods, it would be better to connect to FoodNet and browse the latest delicacies. There would be new 'taste sensations' every night! The bandwidth of ISDN Basic rate is adequate for protocol connections delivering graphics and textual information. Delivering sound over these live connections requires an isonchronous protocol (one that can deliver packets in the right order AND on time) and compression. Distributing catalogues at the whim of the user might be bad depending on how quickly they become outdated and how large they get. What if I order a Pizza which you dont make anymore? > Customers can take as long as they like creating an order without > tying up my staff or anyone's communications link. Yes - remember to include "Commonly Asked Questions" on each pizza, based on the conversations your telephonists have today. > Privacy doesn't have to be compromised (personal data can be stored > locally -- you can do ``same again'' ordering without caller-ID). > Of course, some personal data has to be released in some cases, in > order to make payments or to set up callbacks. If I order this pizza from you, am I going to get electronic junk multimedia about other take-out foods? Caller-ID data can provide accurate direct-marketing information. Then again, caller-ID technology should allow me to refuse calls from certain people and organisations. Click here to never communicate with this company again. > This will create a demand for nice interactive software of a fairly > ephemeral nature -- like video games without the hard real time > problems. But the most important use of the Pizza HyperCard interface is the Smell-o-Vision interface. Just press your nose to the screen and breathe in. George Bray