roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (05/24/88)
Are there any netwatch programs for AppleTalk networks similar to
etherfind or tcpdump? We've got two Apple LaserWriters on a phonenet which
we drive using CAP through a kbox. One LW works fine 95+% of the time, the
other seems like it gets wedged on at least half the jobs. What I'd like
to do is take a Mac, plug it in right next to the bogus LW and keep records
of all network activity. At the same time, I'll be running etherfind
and/or tcpdump on the ethernet side of the kbox with the hope that I'll be
able to look at all the packet traces after a problem and figure out what's
going on. Well, that's the plan anyway; I'm probably crazy for thinking
I'll get anywhere.
--
Roy Smith, System Administrator
Public Health Research Institute
455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers}!phri!roy -or- phri!roy@uunet.uu.netterrell@musky2.MUSKINGUM.EDU (Roger Terrell) (05/25/88)
In article <3282@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: > > Are there any netwatch programs for AppleTalk networks similar to >etherfind or tcpdump? >[...] You indicated that you have a K-box. On the disks that come with that are management programs, etc. for it and a program to monitor the appletalk net. I believe the program is called LOOK. --Roger -- Roger Terrell ...musky2!terrell (UUCP) terrell@muskingum.edu (CSNet)
johnson@bond.crim.CDN (Claude Johnson) (05/25/88)
YOU NEED "TRAFFIC WATCH" by farallon Computing the makers of PhoneNet. CA USA (415) 849-2331 Claude Johnson
dorourke@polyslo.UUCP (David O'Rourke) (05/26/88)
In article <3282@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: > > Are there any netwatch programs for AppleTalk networks similar to >etherfind or tcpdump? Apple should be releasing a product called Interpoll real soon. In addition I think TOPS make a network product and so does Farallon Systems. There is a simple product availible from APDA called AppleTalk Peek. So there are a few out there. Hope this helps. -- David M. O'Rourke Disclaimer: I don't represent the school. All opinions are mine!
farallon@well.UUCP (Farallon Computing) (05/26/88)
The program you want is called Peek. It's available from APDA when you get
Inside AppleTalk. It does just what you say it does, although not a lot more.
It watches the network and records the contents of all packets. It has a
filter (controllable) for LAP and RTMP packets. It does not filter packets
by source or destination node. The problems with Peek are a) it takes a good
understanding of AppleTalk to interpret the data b) it has no summary capability c) it produces a very large amount of data, more than you want to print out
and wade through most of the time. At Farallon, we make a couple of programs,
TrafficWatch, which tells you traffic statistics (not traffic content) and
CheckNET, which tells you who's out there and what sockets they have open. This
is probably not what you are looking for. BTW, I heard someone at Apple was
working on a new version of Peek that addressed some of the aforementioned
"problems". Anyone want to do rumor control on this?
--
Farallon Computing Voice: (415) 849-2331
2150 Kitteridge E-mail: ...hplabs!well!farallon
Berkeley CA 94704 FAX: (415) 841-5770
AppleLink: D0162bwk@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Barry W. Kort) (05/26/88)
Roy Smith asks about "Netwatch" programs on Appletalk. Kinetics ships a couple of Network Utilities with their FastPath Gateway. Echo lets you identify the Appletalk Nodes on your net and ping them. When the net is acting flaky, some nodes disappear from view or don't answer all the pings. Look draws a graph of network activity versus time, and also prints out diagnostic and routing table maintenance packets. These utilities, together with the Chooser window, help us diagnose Appletalk problems. For a while we had a section of Farallon's PhoneNet tacked on to the end of our Appletalk. Although PhoneNet is supposed to work over longer cable lengths than Appletalk cable, we experienced more anomalies when PhoneNet sections were tacked on. When we disconnected the PhoneNet section, performance returned to normal. We suspect echos and standing waves are the culprit, caused by impedance mismatches, but we don't have hard evidence. The phenomenon would be similar to TV ghosts caused by poor antenna cabling. It would be nice to have a CRT display which would reveal echoes and standing waves so that cabling irregularities could be more easily diagnosed and corrected. Right now it's a black art. --Barry Kort
kenw@noah.arc.CDN (Ken Wallewein) (05/27/88)
> Although PhoneNet is supposed to work >over longer cable lengths than Appletalk cable, we experienced >more anomalies when PhoneNet sections were tacked on. When we >disconnected the PhoneNet section, performance returned to normal. It worked fine for us. The fact that it didn't for you is, however, certainly not surprising. > We suspect echos and standing waves are the culprit, caused by >impedance mismatches, but we don't have hard evidence. The >phenomenon would be similar to TV ghosts caused by poor antenna >cabling. It would be nice to have a CRT display which would reveal >echoes and standing waves so that cabling irregularities could be >more easily diagnosed and corrected. Right now it's a black art. Amen, brother! What would be nice would be a TDR (Time Domain Reflectometer) like that used on coax-based Ethernet (but less expensive, of course :-), or that new doodad that's used for tuning twisted-pair Ethernet. There have been a couple of messages about strategic placement of terminating resistors, etc. However, nobody's really said how to decide WHERE to put them. There's a market here somewhere... /kenw
Bowman@SCIENCE.UTAH.EDU (Pieter) (05/28/88)
The method used here for determining where the terminating
resistors go when using PhoneNET, is to use one of the AppleTalk
net watchers and run down the line of Macs. If you can't see
part of the net try removing the resistor (this usually clears
things up). If it doesn't work either way, then...
So far we have about 1500 feet in one building wired using
PhoneNET with many passive stars and trunk lines all connected
together. There is one connection which still doesn't work.
However, there are Macs on either side which do. The suspected
culprit is the phone box, that is waiting for another time to
track down.
Pieter
bowman@science.utah.edu
-------jeff@drexel.UUCP (Jeff White) (05/30/88)
In article <1666*kenw@noah.arc.cdn>, kenw@noah.arc.CDN (Ken Wallewein) writes: > > Although PhoneNet is supposed to work > >over longer cable lengths than Appletalk cable, we experienced > >more anomalies when PhoneNet sections were tacked on. When we > >disconnected the PhoneNet section, performance returned to normal. > > It worked fine for us. The fact that it didn't for you is, however, > certainly not surprising. Can you mix Phonenet and Appletalk wiring on the same cable? I was under the impression that phonenet cable only worked with phonenet transceivers, and the same for Apple cabling and transceivers. Please enlighten me. Jeff White Drexel University - ECE Dept. rutgers!bpa!drexel!jeff
dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) (05/31/88)
In article <599@drexel.UUCP> jeff@drexel.UUCP (Jeff White) writes: > > Can you mix Phonenet and Appletalk wiring on the same cable? I was under > the impression that phonenet cable only worked with phonenet transceivers, > and the same for Apple cabling and transceivers. Please enlighten me. > It's a bit of a misnomer to speak of "phonenet transceivers" and "Apple transceivers". In either case, the "transceiver" is the serial port on a Mac or other micro-computer; the PhoneNet/AppleTalk connectors are passive devices (transformers, etc.) and contain no active (powered) electronics. To answer your question, I'll cite the little PhoneNet booklet that comes with each connector (or, at least, did with the set we bought back in November): Page 7: "PhoneNET and PhoneNET Plus connectors are compatible with Apple Computer's AppleTalk connectors and all of them can be combined on the same network." Page 61: "PhoneNet connectors and AppleTalk connectors can be mixed on the same network. You simply add PhoneNET connectors to your existing AppleTalk network with the PhoneNET to AppleTalk Adaptor Cable (Farallon PN120). "It is best to avoid using more than one PhoneNET to AppleTalk adaptor cable on the same physical network. With multiple AppleTalk connectors on a network, the overall maximum distance is limited to Apple's cabling limit of 1000 feet. "Apple's AppleTalk connectors do not have adequate surge protection to attach directly to unshielded telephone wiring. A PhoneNET connector should be attached between the AppleTalk connector and the telephone wiring." Hope this answers your question... -- Dave Platt VOICE: (415) 493-8805 USNAIL: Coherent Thought Inc. 3350 West Bayshore #205 Palo Alto CA 94303 UUCP: ...!{ames,sun,uunet}!coherent!dplatt DOMAIN: dplatt@coherent.com INTERNET: coherent!dplatt@ames.arpa, ...@sun.com, ...@uunet.uu.net
dorourke@polyslo.UUCP (David O'Rourke) (05/31/88)
In article <599@drexel.UUCP> jeff@drexel.UUCP (Jeff White) writes: > Can you mix Phonenet and Appletalk wiring on the same cable? I was under >the impression that phonenet cable only worked with phonenet transceivers, >and the same for Apple cabling and transceivers. Please enlighten me. I believe the Phone net people sell a "magic" little box that allows you to have one part of your network using standard AppleTalk, and the another part of the network using Phone Net. I'm sure you can mix and match as much as you want as long as there is a converter box between the to different sections. Hope this helps. -- David M. O'Rourke Disclaimer: I don't represent the school. All opinions are mine!
farallon@well.UUCP (Farallon Computing) (06/01/88)
I think the software you are looking for is "Peek". Peek is available from APDA and is included in the Inside AppleTalk publication. That's just as well cause you need to be pretty familiar with "Inside AppleTalk" to be able to use Peek. Peek captures all data packets and has switches that allow you to capture LAP and RTMP packets as well. After the you have captured the packets corresponding to the event you are monitoring, Peek displays the packet contents in hex and decimal. The company I work for, Farallon, also has a couple of net monitoring tools that work a bit differently. CheckNET is a tool that allows you to display all network entities that have an NBP name. TrafficWatch is a statistical monitoring tool and display package. If you would like more information about these products, call the number below. -- Kurt VanderSluis Voice: (415) 849-2331 Farallon Computing Email: farallon@well.UUCP 2150 Kitteridge AppleLink: D0162 Berkeley CA 94704 FAX: (415) 841-5770
farallon@well.UUCP (Farallon Computing) (06/02/88)
In article <599@drexel.UUCP> jeff@drexel.UUCP (Jeff White) writes: > Can you mix Phonenet and Appletalk wiring on the same cable? I was under >the impression that phonenet cable only worked with phonenet transceivers, >and the same for Apple cabling and transceivers. Please enlighten me. > The official word is: a) Don't mix PhoneNET and LocalTalk if you can possibly avoid it. b) If you can't avoid it, do it only once per net. If you are going to convert from LocalTalk to PhoneNET, it is probably because you have outgrown the limitations of LocalTalk. My personal recommendation is to just do an entire replacement. I'm not saying this to you in an effort to sell more widgets, but the motto "Never mix, never worry" applies. A previous writer mentioned that he wanted to "tack on" PhoneNET sections to existing LocalTalk connectors. A better situation would be to drop back a couple of yards and redesign the whole network. Figure out which topology(ies) are best for you and then implement that. We offer Tech support during business hours (West coast time). -- Kurt VanderSluis Voice: (415) 849-2331 Farallon Computing Email: farallon@well.UUCP 2150 Kitteridge AppleLink: D0162 Berkeley CA 94704 FAX: (415) 841-5770
solution@ditsyda.oz ( George Bray) (06/04/88)
In article <32990@linus.UUCP>, bwk@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Barry W. Kort) writes: > Roy Smith asks about "Netwatch" programs on Appletalk. Kinetics Apple has released/announced a program called Inter*Pol. I think it will come with AppleShare 2.0. From my brief viewing, you can investigate the system/finder versions on the Macs on your network (via bridges and gateways too). For this to work each node needs an INIT called Responder. Other features include searching by, node, username etc. pinging, and packet counting. I dont know if it has the ability to do network loading. A feature of a forthcomming version is said to include the ability to map the network for you. /////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Geo[rge] Bray Logical Solutions Australia 55 Mountain Street, Ultimo 2007 VOICE: +61-2-212-6655 \/ ACSNet: solution@ditsyda.oz FAX: +61-2-281-1259 /\ ALINK: AUST0105 CIS: 72067,2764 "No matter which window is viewed, Keylink/Dialcom: 07:LFM001 the scenery looks the same." MacNet: Not Yet! D
kenw@noah.arc.CDN (Ken Wallewein) (06/09/88)
>If you plan to expand an existing network, use the same cabling you started >out with. > >If you start a new zone, use PhoneNet. Sorry, that doesn't cut it. We found it impractical to retrofit our entire network to PhoneNet at once, and we had to expand on short notice. We expanded using Phonenet, connected to the LocalTalk cabling via either the little adapter dooeys or Tops Repeaters. It worked _just_ _fine_. We will do the retrofit when we can figure out who's going to pay for it. I say again: when your net gets biggish, get Tops Repeaters or equivalent (I understand Farallon sells them, too). They're cheap, and they make the flakeys go away :-). /kenw