[comp.protocols.appletalk] Using NCSA Telnet with Apple Internet Router

sci213v@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (mr p freeman) (10/02/90)

I am seeking advice as to whether it is possible for NCSA Telnet to operate
in the following situation.

We have a LocalTalk network of 6 macintoshes connected using PhoneNet.  One
of these Macs (an SE/30) has a NuvoTech SCSI/Ethernet adapter and is connected
to our Universities ethernet backbone and then to the Internet.  The ethernet
connected Mac is running Apple Internet Router as well.

What I want to be able to do is to allow LocalTalk Macs to talk to the ethernet
connected mainframes (Unix) and also the Internet via the ethernet connected
Macintosh.
.  This isn't a problem for 
the Mac connected directly connected to Ethernet of course.  I understand
that Internet Router should allow me to do this but I am having problems using
Telnet  - I don't seem to be able to get any response from the ethernet
connected Unix machines. The Mac SE/30 is fine but not the LocalTalk connected
Macs.  ANy ideas?  Is it my config.tel file for Telnet or is this just not
possible.

In the config.tel file of the LocalTalk Macs I have set hardware=AppleTalk. The
ethernet connected mac is in the same zone as the other LocalTalk macs.
I am using NCSA Telnet 2.3 (not the MacTCP version)

Any comments/ suggestions would be appreciated.

Regards

Paul Freeman
Monash University
AUSTRALIA

Email:	sci213v@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au

bschmidt@bnr.ca (Ben Schmidt) (10/03/90)

In article <1990Oct2.050129.20610@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> 
sci213v@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (mr  p    freeman) writes:
> We have a LocalTalk network of 6 macintoshes connected using PhoneNet.  
> One of these Macs (an SE/30) has a NuvoTech SCSI/Ethernet adapter and
> is connected to our Universities ethernet backbone and then to the
> Internet.  The ethernet connected Mac is running Apple Internet Router
> as well.
> 
> What I want to be able to do is to allow LocalTalk Macs to talk to the
> ethernet connected mainframes (Unix) and also the Internet via the
> ethernet connected Macintosh.
> 
> This isn't a problem for the Mac connected directly connected to
> Ethernet of course.  I understand that Internet Router should allow me
> to do this but I am having problems using Telnet  - I don't seem to be
> able to get any response from the ethernet connected Unix machines.
> The Mac SE/30 is fine but not the LocalTalk connected Macs.  ANy
> ideas?  Is it my config.tel file for Telnet or is this just not
> possible.
> 
> In the config.tel file of the LocalTalk Macs I have set
> hardware=AppleTalk. The ethernet connected mac is in the same zone as
> the other LocalTalk macs. I am using NCSA Telnet 2.3 (not the MacTCP
> version)

Hmm...your transfer rates sound more like LocalTalk than Ethernet.  NCSA 
telnet is optimized for telnet not ftp (or so the net lore goes...)  If you're 
using the non-MacTCP version you can ensure that the message transmit unit 
size is set to a kilobyte, and try setting the window to about 4 kbytes.  
(LocalTalk packets or IP in DDP can't get that big so the default mtu and 
rwin are usually around 512 bytes.)  

If you're on MacTCP it auto-magically  "does the right thing" and you're 
out of luck as far as twiddling the bits.  {Sigh!  Apple please put in an 
access door into your s/w - we promise to leave the default settings most 
of the time!   :^)   }

Want still more speed?  Enter TCP/Connect II.   Gaige says he's enhanced 
the ftp transfer rate 
on the non-MacTCP version.  Give him a shout.

Ben Schmidt              Bell-Northern Research, Ltd.    Ph: (613) 763-3906
Information Technology     P.O. Box 3511, Station C      FAX:(613) 763-3283
bschmidt@bnr.ca         Ottawa Ontario Canada K1Y 4H7

amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) (10/03/90)

In article <1990Oct2.050129.20610@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
sci213v@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (mr  p    freeman) writes:
> We have a LocalTalk network of 6 macintoshes connected using PhoneNet.  One
> of these Macs (an SE/30) has a NuvoTech SCSI/Ethernet adapter and is
> connected to our Universities ethernet backbone and then to the
> Internet.  The ethernet connected Mac is running Apple Internet
> Router as well. 
> 
> What I want to be able to do is to allow LocalTalk Macs to talk to
> the ethernet connected mainframes (Unix) and also the Internet via
> the ethernet connected Macintosh.

The Apple Internet Router only routes AppleTalk protocols.  It does
*not* route IP packets the way a GatorBox or FastPath does.  If you
want to use NCSA Telnet or other Macintosh TCP/IP software, you will
need to invest in a gateway that forwards IP packets as well as
AppleTalk.

You can, of course, try convincing Apple to upgrade the Apple Internet
Router, but if you try this, you'd better not be in a hurry...

--
Amanda Walker						      amanda@visix.com
Visix Software Inc.					...!uunet!visix!amanda
--
"In this age, the mere example of nonconformity, the mere refusal to bend the
 knee to custom, is itself a service."
	--John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty" (1859)

brianb@kinetics.com (Brian Bulkowski) (10/03/90)

In article <1990Oct2.230027.23267@bnrgate.bnr.ca> bschmidt@bnr.ca (Ben Schmidt) writes:
>
>Want still more speed?  Enter TCP/Connect II.   Gaige says he's enhanced 
>the ftp transfer rate 
>on the non-MacTCP version.  Give him a shout.
>
>Ben Schmidt              Bell-Northern Research, Ltd.    Ph: (613) 763-3906

Hi,
For FTP speed I would recommend looking into the Kinetics/Excelan/Novell
product "HostAccess" aka LANWorkPlace for Macintosh. I'm biased towards
this product because I worked on it. But in my limited testing I never
saw NCSA or Connect II get over 40Kb/s. With HA v1.11 and TCPort v1.11
I could get 120Kb/s occasionally, and usually ran at 80Kb/s. As usual, your
mileage will vary, and I honestly don't think that version of HA has much
to recommend itself other than the faster speed - it's low in features
and high in price. Some very small information about this product may
be extracted from salespeople, but being a TCP/Mac product in an
IPX/PC company, don't expect much. Sigh.

I'd be interested in hearing any new numbers about ConnectII. (Hi Gage,
Kurt!)

Brian Bulkowski
Software Type
brianb@wc.novell.com  <=== no longer kinetics.com

tom@wcc.oz (Tom Evans) (10/08/90)

In article <1990Oct2.050129.20610@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, sci213v@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (mr  p    freeman) writes:
> 
> I am seeking advice as to whether it is possible for NCSA Telnet to operate
> in the following situation.

Summary - [Macs]<--LocalTalk-->[Mac, Apple Internet Router]<-Ethernet-->Unix

In a word, no. When running on a Mac directly connected to Ethernet,
NCSA Telnet can directly send the TCP/IP/Ethernet packet straight onto
the wire. When the Mac is on LocalTalk, the TCP/IP packet is put into
the data field of a DDP packet and sent to socket 72 on anything that
answers an NBP LookUp for "a.b.c.d:IPADDRESS", where "a.b.c.d" is the
IP address of the machine you're trying to talk to.

The Apple Internet Router doesn't handle this form of encapsulation.

However, you have a MultiGate there, and if you change the
configuration to allow allocation of IP addresses out the EtherTalk
interface (which is where the packets from the Internet Router are
coming from), it will do the encap/decap/IPGATEWAY stuff for you.

Phone me for configuration details (MultiGate and NCSA Telnet tricks).

BTW the FastPath can do the same trick if Option 7 is set.

========================
Tom Evans  tom@wcc.oz.au  
Webster Computer Corp P/L, 1270 Ferntree Gully Rd Scoresby, Melbourne 3179
Victoria, Australia 61-3-764-1100  FAX ...764-1179