chuq@plaid.UUCP (05/01/87)
Desktop Publishing Archive #6
Subjects:
On WYSIWYG, TeX, Script, _roff, etc.
wondrous vaporware (and WYSIWYG, TeX, Script, _roff, etc.)
Hugo
Ready Set Go 3.0 (first impressions)
IBM PC Publishing Problems
MS WORD 3.0 question (IBM version) (3 msgs)
Ready Set Go 3.0 (first impressions)
Any DTP stuff to drive a CompuGraphic 8400? (2 msgs)
books
Books on DTP
--------------------
From: Peter Ludemann <ludemann%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: On WYSIWYG, TeX, Script, _roff, etc.
Having strained my eyes for the last few weeks cranking out some
documents using Microsoft Word on the Macintosh, I have decided to
vent my anger at the current crop of publishing software.
First to WYSIWYG. I am suffering a little from eye strain because I
want to use Times Roman but even at 14 point, it is hard to read on a
Macintosh. I am quite prepared to give up a bit of what-you-see-ness
for a more readable screen. A preview screen (with zoom) would take
care of seeing what the final output is like.
And for all you WYSIWYG fans, I have a little test: take your
document and reformat it: all 9 point Times Roman is to change to 10
point Pallatino; all Helvetica is to change to Univers; and while
you're at it, increase the leading by 1 point. Now, make that work
for a limited printer, so have all bold into underscores. Now,
change it back to what it was, but change the 10 point Pallatino to
9.9 point (I have a typesetter that can adjust font sizes in tenths
of a point and can adjust leading in fiftieths of a point (th)is is
very handy for squeezing articles into newletters).
For those who think that TeX is the answer, please demonstrate some
macros that can do side notes, footnotes and column balancing (2
column text with headers and footers). These macros must all be
under 10 lines and be UNDERSTANDABLE. Now, if you can do that, take
a document that was created using troff with the ME macro package
(yes, I know it's yucky) and with a minimum of fuss, reprocess it
using TeX (you don't have to handle macro definitions, just be able
to handle the ME commands).
Two gotchas, eh? Well, I have a solution. (Actually, it's not my
solution; it was dreamed up a few years ago by a chap at the Queen's
Printer in Ottawa. If you want to contact him, just send me a
message - he's no longer in Ottawa.) It's a special purpose
programming language for typesetting.
The particular language is called Hugo (don't ask for a meaning of
the name - the explanation is far too complex). It is more or less
non-procecural and it has a very interesting property: professional
typesetters using it can write better programs than professional
programmers - and the typesetters can write the programs quicker,
too. Hugo can also handle almost any kind of mark up language that
you care to dream up (I've used it to handle the raw output from a
database dump, for example).
I can't describe such a language in a few paragraphs. It comtains
features from pattern matching languages (like Snobol and Icon),
co-routining plus special string handling and translating which are
peculiar to typesetting. And, I can write a program in under 200
lines which will do any of the tasks I've given above. Most programs
are under 50 lines.
That's all. Just thought I'd send off a final blast before leaving
the net.
--------------------
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@ico.ISC.COM>
Subject: wondrous vaporware (and WYSIWYG, TeX, Script, _roff, etc.)
Peter Ludemann's complaints about some of the current software might be on
target--for example, it IS pretty silly to try to do WYSIWYG at normal
scale on a low-res (75 dpi) screen; it IS hard to get data in and out of a
lot of text processors; it IS clunky to change fonts and/or sizes on most
WYSIWYG systems (meaning that either you can't do it or it takes forever).
But his solution is worse than useless.
> Two gotchas, eh? Well, I have a solution. (Actually, it's not my
> solution; it was dreamed up a few years ago by a chap at the Queen's
> Printer in Ottawa. If you want to contact him, just send me a
> message - he's no longer in Ottawa.) It's a special purpose
> programming language for typesetting.
Well, that's a good start--a special-purpose language dreamed up by an
unnamed person whose current location is unknown (or at least not to be
revealed)! And oh, by the way, in case you're going to try to find this
mythical solution to all of your problems by contacting Mr. Ludemann, best
note that:
> That's all. Just thought I'd send off a final blast before leaving
> the net.
So this wonderful software is not only written by someone about whom we
know neither name nor location, but can only be had through someone with
whom we are about to lose contact. We don't know much of anything about
the software except that it's nonprocedural and wonderful. We don't know
what language it's written in (which doesn't matter since we don't know if
we could get source), nor what hardware it runs on.
Sure--I'll be glad to have that software and bet a deadline that I'll be
able to produce an important document with it. I'll bet that there are no
bugs. I'll bet that I'll never need any help or other support. I'll bet
that it will run on all seven different types of machines we've got here.
I'll bet that it will never need enhancements or new features, and that the
performance is so wonderful that it will never need tuning up. Oh, while
I'm thinking about it, I'm in the market for a large bridge...
Sheesh...could we talk about real software? If I can't order it right now,
today, it ain't real.
--------------------
From: Peter Ludemann <ludemann%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Hugo
I've received quite a few requests about Hugo, so here's a bit more
information.
The inventor is Sam Wilmott:
Suite 202
2131 West 3rd Ave.
Vancouver, B.C. Canada
V6K 1L3
(604) 732-7092
He has just been set up with an e-mail id:
ubc-vision!van-bc!horace!sjw.UUCP
If you can't get mail to him, I'll relay messages for you. However,
I'm going out of town for a week (starting today) and I'll be off the
net in a month.
Hugo has two implementations: one at the Queen's Printers in Ottawa
and one at a data centre in Vancouver. The latter is missing a few of
the fanciest (and least used) features because management lost
interest in it (financial cut-backs). It is still being used in both
places. And still being enjoyed.
I think that Sam should give a description rather than me - after
all, he's the designer and implementor whereas I'm just an adoring fan.
There is one document: a reference manual which is very complete but
not designed as a tutorial. Sam can probably send you a copy, but I
think that he should get paid for the copying and mailing costs (he's
a private citizen, not yet in the pay of a large well-heeled
organisation which can afford to send 100-page documents out at no
charge [ie, he's working on his own right now]).
I'd like to blow a small trumpet for Sam (I know he wouldn't do it
for himself): he is the best interface and programming language
designer that I have met (and I've been around for a few years).
He's also a quite fine programmer who can get up to his armpits in
the gory goings-on inside an operating system, yet not lose sight of
the overall design. I'm sure that he'd love to implement Hugo-2
on a micro/mini if there's sufficient interest out there.
--------------------
From: chuq (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Ready Set Go 3.0 (first impressions)
RSG 3.0 showed up at computerware today ($166, if you're interested). I've
opened the box and started leafing through the manual, and if the manual
(actually printed at a 64 page glossy 'magazine') is any indication, this
is a real a**-kicker of a program. The typography and layout of their
stuff is impressive, to say the least, and the design of the book is VERY
complex, yet clean -- they obviously are working to try to show off the
capabilities of their system without dropping into kitsch.
I'll talk about it in more depth when I have a chance to actually use the
program, but I wanted to let people know that it has actually hit the
streets. This version has (among other things) kerning, automatic hyphenation,
a full spelling checker, text runarounds, works with Tempo, Laserserve,
imports formatted Word and Write documments, and (wonders of wonders!)
has Postscript windows, so you can define a block, throw a postscript
program in it, and go! No more hacking to get to the laserwriter!
--------------------
From: srm%iris.Berkeley.EDU@BERKELEY.EDU (Richard Mateosian)
Subject: IBM PC Publishing Problems
I have a friend who is with a publisher of computer books. He often has
problems like:
1. He wants to include the image of an IBM PC screen in a
book. Ideally, he'd like something like a desk accessory
(or a substitute printer driver a la "Glue" for the Mac)
that would put the bitmap of the screen image onto disk
in a format that could later be printed on a laser printer.
2. He wants a font for his laser printer that mimics the IBM
PC screen fonts.
His experience has been that when problems like this come up, he can't
find anyone who can help him -- even when he has real money to spend.
Is there a shortage of gurus in this field? Is there a shortage of
helpful software? Or does he simply not know where to look?
If anyone has some insights into this problem, or wants to offer suitable
software or services, let me know, and I'll pass it on to my friend. If I
get a few interesting responses, I'll summarize.
--------------------
From: mlwh@sphinx (Martin Hall)
Subject: MS WORD 3.0 question (IBM version)
I want to be able to add a page or two of text with 2 columns but in a
document that is not all two columns. I have been able to do this. But
the catch is that I want to have a title at the beginning of the page
that goes across the top. (Like you might see in a newsletter).
If I do a Format Division command after a title it will start a new
page. If I do it after the F D command the title become part of first
column. An example in the manual shows this being done but does not
illustrate the procedure. Any help would be immensely appreciated.
--------------------
From: chuq (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Ready Set Go 3.0 (first impressions)
Ready Set Go 3.0 has finally hit ComputerWare, and last night I had the
time to sit down and play with it a little bit. In general, I'm VERY HAPPY
with the product -- after fighting my way through MacPublisher II for the
last 6 months, I can't tell you how much easier this program is to work
with and get things accomplished.
The program is rather easy to use, but not always intuitive -- read the
manual first, and keep it handy for the first few sessions.
[editorial side note. The design of the manual is a great testimonial
for the program. It's a very complex, clean document, done as
a 65 page magazine on glossy paper. On the downside, they tried
a little too hard to show all the neat things RSG could do, and
I find the document a little too busy on the design side. I also
worry about the long-term prospects of protecting a glossy magazine
from the trials and tribulations of my desk -- a heavier card stock
would last much longer under normal usage]
On the program side, RSG has a lot of neat features:
o Postscript windows. Yes, all you need to do is create a block of
text, click a button, and type in a postscript program. Think of
the possibilities. (like, wow!)
o real-time hyphenation. Yes, you can toss an article on a page,
turn onhyphenation, type, and watch the entire screen redraw with
the changing hyphenation -- fast enough that it doesn't really
bother you.
o attribute changing. You can change attributes on any size block
of text -- from a character to the entire document. This includes
justification, font, style, size.
o Text wraparounds. Build a block. Drop it on the page. Watch
everything squirm to get out of the way. I think I'm in lust...
(it works, wonderfully!)
o full word processing features. search/replace and a spelling
checker.
o it doesn't brew coffee for you. yet.
Overall, I'm very happy, with a few minor reservations and one bug. It
does everything I want it to do (that I know how to do, so far) and the
results of the test designs I threw at it last night were rather wonderful.
Printing, by the way, at least to a laserwriter, is quite fast.
The few gripes:
o The word-processing isn't as powerful as they would like you
to believe. They claim you could do ALL your writing in RSG3,
and throw the rest away. No, you can't -- it would drive you up
the wall. But, it is more than useful if you're putting together
short filler pieces or hacking an article into shape. It's good,
but it could be better.
o There are no decimal tabs. There are up to 9 left, right, centered
or justified tabs, however.
o There is a bug in the search/replace algorithm. choose 'search'
and search for '"'. When you find it, replace is with
shift-option-[ (the open double-quote). When you go to search again,
the 'change' command has also changed the search field, making
a 'find next' operation impossible if you use the 'change' option
(instead of just typing in the new text).
o the spelling checker is very weak. It's MUCH better than none
at all, but don't plan on tossing Thunder! or Spellswell yet. You
can't modify the RSG dictionary, either to add or delete. You
CAN set up a User dictionary, but it is tied to the application
(where RSG lives, it lives) and not the document, so you can't
make spelling dictionaries on a document by document basis. foo.
o The index is weak -- for example, it doesn't tell you the page
that has the information on the command to put the page numbers
on your pages. The documentation overall isn't bad, but it could
have been better organized.
In general, it is the best thing since slightly stale bread. Lots of fun,
and it makes MacPublisher II look like teco.
As I find more, I'll let you know.
--------------------
Subject: Any DTP stuff to drive a CompuGraphic 8400?
From: J. Peter Alfke <alfke@csvax.caltech.edu>
After reading and half-heartedly drooling over the neat stuff that can
be done with a Mac and LaserWriter, I'd like to see if anyone knows of
any DTP software that can help me and my setup.
The situation: I'm (co)editor-in-chief of the Caltech student newspaper,
a weekly rag that comes out in a 12 x 17" (something like that) format.
We have a Compugraphic MCS 10 composition system (custom circa-1980
microcomputer with custom software) and a CompuGraphic 8400 typesetter
which produces pretty 1200-lines-per-inch output in a large variety of
fonts. (Note that the 8400 is NOT a PostScript engine, more's the
pity. It draws characters and rules.)
The problem: The composition environment is WRETCHED. You have your
16x64 display, and all the special stuff is done by inserting funny codes
like <FT3> (boldface), <PLS> (plus line space), et cetera, ad nauseum.
What you see is nothing like what you get. We have no recourse but to
print our articles in strips and go through the whole tedious messy
hand-layout process.
Desktop publishing has obviously come a long way. However, I have seen
no DTP software on any machine which claims to be able to run an 8400
typesetter. Well, actually I have: CompuGraphic will sell us some really
nifty stuff to replace our MCS10 with, if we but fork over $15,000. Hollow
chuckle.
Has anyone out there heard even the vaguest rumors about software that
will drive the 8400? We have an AT in the office, but can get a Mac if
we need to. Future generations of editors and production staff will be
eternally grateful to the bearer of information ...
--------------------
From: decvax!ima!johnl
Subject: Re: IBM MS WORD 3.0 question
I have been fooling with Word for quite a while and I do not believe that
there is any reasonable way to make a page which is partially one column and
partially multiple column. You can try fiddling your divisions by hand and
lying to it about the page lengths, but what a pain.
The only PC word processor I know which can handle that problem is Final Word,
a Scribe clone suitable for documents formatted by Real Men.
--------------------
From: korn%cory.Berkeley.EDU@BERKELEY.EDU (Peter "Arrgh" Korn)
Subject: Re: IBM MS WORD 3.0 question
Re: columns & non-columns on the same page...
It is possible, as I *just* did it (logged off I did, and tested it out).
The trick is to select "no break" when in the new section.
--------------------
From: jbarry@rambaud (John Barry)
Subject: books
TO: Potential Authors/Researchers
FROM: John Barry
SUBJECT: Books on DTP
Although we havent signed the contracts yet, an associate of mine and I
are almost certain we will be doing a series of product-specific books
for a computer-book publisher.
In light of probable tight schedules, we may well not have enough time to
do all the requisite writing and research. The purpose of this message is
to determine whether or not anyone out there in desktop-publishing land
is potentially interested in participating in this project.
Prerequisites:
o You must have continuous access to a Macintosh and/or PC or
clone
o Adherence to dealines is a must
o Your interest must be based primarily on the desire for fame--
not fortune. If this deal goes through, we can't afford to
pay much, but we can offer joint by-lines or other billing
on the published work(s).
If you'd like to discuss participation in this project and receive more
specific information, please send me E-mail (jbarry@rambaud) or call me
at home during nonbusiness hours (415-367-1687).
--------------------
Subject: Re: Any DTP stuff to drive a CompuGraphic 8400?
From: Larry Wake <hplabs!titan!lkw>
>Has anyone out there heard even the vaguest rumors about software that
>will drive the 8400? We have an AT in the office, but can get a Mac if
>we need to. Future generations of editors and production staff will be
>eternally grateful to the bearer of information ...
>
> --Peter Alfke
> alfke@csvax.caltech.edu
Funny you should mention it...we're in almost exactly the same situation
here. About a year ago, our Graphics Department decided to upgrade its
typesetting equipment; I was made part of the evaluation team, as we
wanted whatever they got to be able to talk in some way to the various
Computer Center machines.
The bad news was that, as near as we could tell, "real" typesetting
equipment has made it to about 1977 in terms of computerization -- that
is, somewhere around the Bronze Age. There was one company that was
flirting with UNIX and the 68000; everyone else seemed happy messing
around with 5 Meg Winchesters, 8080 CPU's, and other fine museum
pieces. To make a long story interminable, we wound up going with the
CG8400 with an MCS 100 frontend, as this appeared to be the industry
norm for our size shop.
Anyway, we've spent the better part of the year searching for ways to
get our PC's (both IBM and Mac) into the picture, and here's all we've
come up with so far. The next few paragraphs are courtesy of Dave
Crawford, also of our Computer Center, who's been handling the search
most recently:
We have some product literature from a company called
TeleTypesetting about some interfaces between microcomputer
software products and Compugraphic typesetters. The literature has
an address in Ann Arbor, Michigan, but when I called them I was
told that they had moved to Boston. The new phone number is (617)
266-6637.
TeleTypesetter is selling both hardware and software for the Mac
and the IBM PC. I must admit that I'm a little unclear on what the
hardware does, since they also sell a "software only" package for
the Mac. Their literature indicates that the software translates
PostScript output into typesetting codes; I assume that the Mac
then sends the output to the typesetter via an ordinary serial
line.
The "software only" package sells for $1490, and an additional $295
module is required for translating "graphics." (The product
literature mentions only "vertical and horizontal ruling, and
boxes," although the person I spoke to on the phone claimed that
this module allowed MacPaint images to be printed.)
Frankly, I'm a little skeptical of this company because the product
literature doesn't agree completely with what the representative
told me on the phone. I also hesitate to pay that kind of money
for a "software only" solution unless I can have the package on a
thirty-day evaluation basis. (The literature remarks that
"software is non-refundable.")
The general consensus of people we've talked to is that software of
this sort is just about to pop; a lot of people are recommending that
we hang on until the next Gutenberg Festival, which is coming to the
Long Beach Arena in April. I've gone the last two years and it's been
a generally frustrating experience in that you could see that desktop
publishing was *almost* there, but that there was nothing of substance
yet; I'm hoping that the last year's boom will make the difference for
the 1987 edition.
---------------------------------------
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administrivia to: desktop-request%plaid@sun.com
Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM [I don't read flames]
There is no statute of limitations on stupidity