chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (05/06/87)
From: desktop%plaid@sun.com Here's an interesting question for folks out there. OtherRealms is currently running about 28 pages a month, and I'm printig 100-150 copies depending on comps. That runs to 2800-2500 pages/month, which I'm currently doing at a copy shop to the tune of about $100/month in copying costs. The question I'm turning over in my mind is this. Since OtherRealms is about to go quarterly with an expanded (about 76-80 page) format, I have to decide if I want to stick with Xerography or go offset with a real printer. And if I stick with Xerography, do I want to continue shelling out $100/mo in costs, or do I want to buy a machine and do it myself? The way I look at it, if I go offset I get lots of new capabilities, including being able to use cardstock for covers, go to a saddle stitch, and be able to reproduce photos (photos and book covers don't really do well in a copy machine....). But I'm tied to a schedule, the turnaround is slower, and I'm not sure what volume I need before the cost per page is better than Xerography. If I stick with the copy shop, I'm probably trading off speed and convenience (they collate for me, for instance) against cost. If you assume that their cost is 30% material (probably high) and the rest equiptment, overhead and margin, I should be able to put $70/mo into a copier and still break even, or perhaps reduce my costs. But I don't know whether I can buy a copier in the 3000-5000 copy/month bracket with 100% two sided capability in that kind of price range. And if I start doing my own copying, I have to also do my own collating, or buy a feeder attachment. And I suspect that eventually if OtherRealms keeps growing that offset will be a necessity, and buying my own equiptment makes the changeover later that much harder. So I find myself in the middle of a rather complex problem without any clear ideas of how to solve it. Has anyone else out there dealt with these issues? Any suggestions on places where I can look for answers to some of these questions? Any suggestions are more than welcome! chuq s Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM [I don't read flames] There is no statute of limitations on stupidity
chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (05/07/87)
Date: Wed, 6 May 87 08:06 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
First, background--I've cut down on my publishing schedule a lot lately,
but in 1986, here's what I was doing: Two monthly newsletters, about 10
pages each, about 75 copies of one 140 of the other. One quarterly
publication of only 10 copies, 50-80 pages, two fanzines, each about 50
pages, maybe 100 printed over the year, plus lots of misc. flyers. and such.
Doing the above offset or copy shop would have bankrupted me. So, I
bought a copier with my Xerox employee discount. 1) The cost, counting
paper, toner and electricity, is about a penny and 1/2 per two-sided
page. Adding in the cost of the copier, over just these two years,
still comes out to only 7 cents a copy! 2) I did not get a service
contract with Xerox--the cost seemed prohibitive, but I have not had any
breakdowns in two years. 3) I do have a problem with my little copier
(1025 Marathon copier) with large print runs. After about 500 copies,
the contrast goes down and it tends to wrinkle two-sided copies. So,
I'll do my two newsletters over a week. 4) I do have to collate, but
with an electric stapler and some friends to help, that's not bad. I
did get a sorter, but that does only 10 copies--very useful for the
larger publications, though. 5) You won't believe all the things a
copier comes in handy for once you get one. I just had an immensely
successful garage sale, mainly because I did up cute flyers on the Mac,
copied up huge quantities, and got friends to help me distrubute them
throughout my neighborhood.
I've figured that it would be reasonable for me to look into copy shops
or offset if I go over 300 copies for my newsletters, but not until.
Yes, I work for Xerox. But I wouldn't tell you about how marvelous my
copier was, if it weren't.
--Lisa
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Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM [I don't read flames]
There is no statute of limitations on stupiditychuq@plaid.UUCP (05/07/87)
Date: Wed, 6 May 87 9:30:38 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
The simplest way to find out about printing costs is to go to a local
cheap-printer (sometimes a copy-shop, too), like A-to-Z, Insty-Prints,
Buzz-Print, etc. They do a cheaper version of offset printing than the
bigger shops, using paper instead of metal plates, and are usually a good
bet unless you want to reproduce high-qauality photos, use slick paper, or
something like that. They can usually saddle-staple, if not -stitch, collate,
cut custom sizes, etc., as well as doing the 2-sided printing.
Charges will vary from shop to shop, depending mostly on which "custom"
services you want to use (collating, stapling, enlarging or reducing from
your original copy, etc.) - actual cost per 1000 sheets printed is usually
pretty close to standard in a given locale (although some shops tend to run
"specials" on a frequent basis - that's why I usually use my loca A-to-Z
instead of Insty-Print unless I need 50% reduction on the whole job).
You should be able to just visit or 'phone your local cheap-print shop and
ask for prices for the package of services you're intersted in (80 pages
double-sided, 150 copies each, white paper, maybe heavier-stock covers,
8.5 x 11 pages printed 2-per side on 17 x 11 paper, folded and saddle-stapled).
You should be able to get a price in a few minutes from each shop you visit/
call.
Cheers,
Rich
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Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM [I don't read flames]
There is no statute of limitations on stupiditychuq@plaid.UUCP (05/07/87)
Date: Wed, 6 May 87 09:28:54 PDT
From: rupp@cod.nosc.mil (William L. Rupp)
Organization: Computer Sciences Corp., San Diego
This is a subject that I know a fair bit about. I was President, and
later monthly newsletter editor, of a large Apple computer user group
here in San Diego. At one point I did a survey of the various options
open to us for reproducing our newsletter. We considered buying a
copier, using Xerography, using offset, etc. At various times we used
both offset and copier services.
You have pretty well listed the options and their good and bad points.
I am not really familiar with your publication, so I don't have a feel
for what you are or where you are going. Nevertheless, I can say
firmly that if you can possibly help it, don`t get involved in the
printing business. Leave that to the professionals. It is well worth
the cost, I believe, to send your work to a printer, no matter what kind
of technology he uses, than to tackle, month after month, the hassle
of running your own press. It may seem like a lot of money, but your
time is really the most valuable thing you have.
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Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM [I don't read flames]
There is no statute of limitations on stupiditychuq@plaid.UUCP (05/07/87)
Date: 6 May 87 09:50:07 PDT
From: starkweather.pa@Xerox.COM
You can all of the finishing (stapling saddle stitiching etc.) functions
with Xerographic copies. Offset must be finished off-line. Larger
copiers have many finishing and collating functions that offset has not
even begun to address. If you have large volume, high quality pictorials
then perhaps offset is a necessity. On the other hand if you run very
few copies per month (3000-5000) that is only 100 to 200 copies per day
and the labor is so small, why automate it or pay to have it automated?
Gary Starkweather - Xerox PARC
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Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM [I don't read flames]
There is no statute of limitations on stupiditychuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (05/08/87)
Date: Thu, 7 May 87 08:50:55 pdt
From: ames!styx!ihnp4!ihlpf!straka
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
With regards to your questions about cost-effective printing:
My advice: Do what you do best. Don't try to do everything yourself.
Basic business advice is that every company has an ideal size. That is
related to economies of scale varying by business area. Since economies
of scale tend to still be effective until companies get PRETTY big,
specialization has developed. Your copy shop has economies of scale
that you can never hope to achieve (at least as long as you limit
yourself to your current type of endeavors, and don't go into
main-stream publishing).
The concept you are attempting to undergo here is called backwards
integration. You have several barriers to overcome. One is the initial
capital cost, which has gotten lower recently, but is still not
insignificant. The other is "hassle". Do you really want the hassle of
worying about the details of maintaining the copier yourself (or paying
for the service to someone else)? Do you really have the time to devote
to these activities? Could you have used this time to better advantage
in your area of expertise? These are all basic questions which
businesses of all types ask themselves every day. In an efficient
market (competitive), your hassle factor should typically balance off
the cost premium (profit) that your copy shop imposes on you. If they
do not balance, the market is inefficient, and you should obviously go
in the direction of better cost-effectiveness (this is the real trick!)
I hope I haven't gotten too far off the deep end. I guess it comes from
recently having gotten an MBA at a major school. But your question was
about business, wasn't it? :-)
In summary, my guess is that you should stick to your area of expertise
and leave the mechanical details to someone else. Otherwise, you may
not have enough resources left to develop you specialty. Then again,
many of us probably spend inordinate amounts of time reading the net
anyway :-).
Best of luck in your endeavors.
--
Rich Straka ihnp4!ihlpf!straka
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Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM [I don't read flames]
There is no statute of limitations on stupiditychuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (05/08/87)
From: rochester!steinmetz!davidsen@steinmetz..arpa (William E. Davidsen Jr) Date: 7 May 87 15:04:07 GMT Organization: General Electric CRD, Schenectady, NY In article <18148@sun.uucp> chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >From: desktop%plaid@sun.com > >Here's an interesting question for folks out there. OtherRealms is >currently running about 28 pages a month, and I'm printig 100-150 copies >depending on comps. That runs to 2800-2500 pages/month, which I'm currently >doing at a copy shop to the tune of about $100/month in copying costs. > >The question I'm turning over in my mind is this. Since OtherRealms is >about to go quarterly with an expanded (about 76-80 page) format, I have to >decide if I want to stick with Xerography or go offset with a real printer. >And if I stick with Xerography, do I want to continue shelling out $100/mo >in costs, or do I want to buy a machine and do it myself? I'll stick out my neck and say that you will probably find a copy shop cheaper (particularly if you value your time at all for collating, etc). I would suspect that your best option would be to product the masters on a good publishing system, and either digitize the photos and put them where you want, or just put them in manually. Good copy equipment will do photos if they are halftoned, and you can get a scanner for <$1000 which should be adequate (~300 dpi). I'm sure you will get a lot of contradictory advice on this one! -- bill davidsen sixhub \ ARPA: wedu@ge-crd.arpa ihnp4!seismo!rochester!steinmetz -> crdos1!davidsen chinet / "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" ---------------------------------------- Submissions to: desktop%plaid@sun.com -OR- sun!plaid!desktop Administrivia to: desktop-request%plaid@sun.com -OR- sun!plaid@desktop-request Paths: {ihnp4,decwrl,hplabs,seismo,ucbvax}!sun Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM [I don't read flames] There is no statute of limitations on stupidity
chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (05/08/87)
From: seismo!harvard!linus!watmath!looking!brad
Date: Thu May 7 19:15:18 1987
Organization: Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario
Offset becomes a win when your circulation goes up, not when your
number of pages goes up.
At 200 copies, most (almost all) of your cost is the plate cost and
setup cost. The paper and press time are a fraction of this.
There are three kinds of offset printing, mind you
paper plate - real cheap, quality same as a photocopy
only one run of a few thousand per plate
silver plate - medium price, high quality, only one run
allowed, but up to 25,000
metal plate - expensive, as many runs as you like, high quality.
Most copy shops can copy onto card stock or heavy paper. You can
do your covers this way. For colour, you need offset, but again there
is nothing stopping you from doing your covers in offset and the
rest on a copier.
A cheap copier will not satisfy your needs as it won't be able to do
collating etc. You can lease a good copier for one or two hundred
a month on a long term lease. It will still not look as good as the
$50,000 copier at the copy shop.
My suggestion, call around to the copy shops, tell them what you have,
tell them you will guarantee to do 12 issues there if they give you
a good price and maintain good service. They will chop the price down.
One might even offer to beat anybody's price.
Methods of binding, covers etc. have little to do with xerography.
It's only what the shop will do for you.
BTW cost of stock is only a small part of the copy shop's expenses.
They pay about .2 or .3 cents a sheet for it in the quantity they
purchase in.
Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
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Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM [I don't read flames]
There is no statute of limitations on stupiditychuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (05/15/87)
From: ubc-vision!calgary!vuwcomp!alex@seismo.CSS.GOV (Alex Heatley)
Date: 13 May 87 23:16:03 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, Victoria Univ, Wellington, New Zealand
Here in New Zealand I produce a quarterly fanzine that averages around 100
copies at around 20 pages per issue. I won't bother giving costs because of
problems with exchange rates, however a rough calculation shows that by my
standards you are being ripped off.
The print shops in the city I live in generally are either all offset or
xerox/offset. The offset places are always a lot more expensive to use than
the xerox/offset places as their cilents typically are sucked in by the
offset is better mentality.
The particular print shop that I get my stuff done through will do either
xerox or offset depending on the size of the print run. Above 200 copies they
prefer to do offset.
I'll cover my experinces with Xerox first.
1) doing it yourself is a real pain, to get good results you have to keep
your copier *clean* e.g you have to vacuum the thing after every run.
Typically print shops have constant maintenace on their copiers to make
sure they can get good results all the time. Can you afford to throw out
a drum because a paper jam put a scratch on it? Generally there are much
higher overheads than you might think involved in owning a copier.
As for buying one, just walk into your local Rank Xerox office and give
them lots of money (or Cannon or ...)
Good xerox is almost as good as offset with the exception of doing
photographs (which costs lots!) and you can run up to 120gm card
through a copier without any problems (the print shop I use does it
all the time).
2) Offset. Offset is only worthwhile if you have to have photos in your
document. Usually the cost per page is around the same as the cost for
xerox (sometimes even a little cheaper). What costs is making up the
plates (plastic for cheap copy shops and newspapers, metal for books)
from your masters, and creating the bromides from your photos.
That is a high initial cost and it depends on your print run as to whether
you are justified. For example consider that plates cost $2 to make
per page, that xeroxing costs $0.08 per page (both sides) and that
printing is roughly the same price.
200 copies @ 70 pages offset = 70 x $2 + 200 * 70 / 2 * $0.08
= $700
200 copies @ 70 pages xerox = 200 * 70 / 2 * $0.08
= $560
It's the plate cost that gets you everytime.
The other problem with offset is that while the costs are about the
same *per page* once the plates have been done. Typically there is
a much higher profit margin. This is because most print shops that
do offset do it for companies that are using offset as a sort of
status thing. They actually prefer to pay a bit more for the ability
to say that their documents are offset.
Back to the print shop I use, they'll do both xerox and offset. They'll charge
you around the same price for collation and heavy card cover for both
processes and the only real difference is the extra cost for plates in the
offset process.
If you can't find a shop in your area that's prepared to do both. Start one
up, you'll make a mint. The key advantage is that they have to worry about
meeting your standards. and they have all the headaches of daily maintence
and so on.
My feeling is that you should shop around the print shops in your area and
find the one with the best prices. You may have to stick with xerox. But don't
buy a copier yourself not unless you want a lot of grief.
On the offset side, a person I knew brought a offset printer and plate maker
for around $NZ 1500 (about $US 750). He did really well until he discovered
that he had to spend an hour cleaning the printer after each job. That you
have to hold your tongue just right to make plates and that people don't like
poor results even if you are chaging them cost.
But it's a thought, check up on how much a offset printer will cost you. It
may well be a lot cheaper than the kind of xerox you're thinking of sinking
your bucks into (and a damned sight more reliable).
Hope this has been of help.
Regards
--
Alex Heatley : CSC, Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand.
uucp : alberta!calgary!vuwcomp!alex ACSnet : alex@vuwcomp.nz
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Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM [I don't read flames]
There is no statute of limitations on stupidity