ccdn@levels.sait.edu.au (DAVID NEWALL) (05/24/89)
While we're making suggestions for the next version of elm: I'd like the two dashes that are put above the signature, removed. In particular, they offend my sense of aesthetics; and if I did want them, I could always put them in my signature file. David Newall Phone: +61 8 343 3160 Unix Systems Programmer Fax: +61 8 349 6939 Academic Computing Service E-mail: ccdn@levels.sait.oz.au SA Institute of Technology Post: The Levels, South Australia, 5095
david@wubios.wustl.edu (David J. Camp) (05/25/89)
In article <224@levels.sait.edu.au> ccdn@levels.sait.edu.au (DAVID NEWALL) writes: >While we're making suggestions for the next version of elm: I'd like the >two dashes that are put above the signature, removed. In particular, they >offend my sense of aesthetics; and if I did want them, I could always put >them in my signature file. Personally I would like a whole line of dashes, or some other graphic pattern of my own choosing. We cannot put the dashes in our .signature file, since postnews (or rn?) refuses to use a .signature file of greater than 4 lines. I suppose using only two dashes is better net ettiquette, but I think the user should be able to choose this option. -David- > >David Newall Phone: +61 8 343 3160 >Unix Systems Programmer Fax: +61 8 349 6939 >Academic Computing Service E-mail: ccdn@levels.sait.oz.au >SA Institute of Technology Post: The Levels, South Australia, 5095 -- Bitnet: david@wubios.wustl ^ Mr. David J. Camp Internet: david%wubios@wucs1.wustl.edu < * > Box 8067, Biostatistics uucp: uunet!wucs1!wubios!david v 660 South Euclid Washington University (314) 36-23635 Saint Louis, MO 63110
jbayer@ispi.UUCP (Jonathan Bayer) (05/25/89)
In article <224@levels.sait.edu.au> ccdn@levels.sait.edu.au (DAVID NEWALL) writes: >While we're making suggestions for the next version of elm: I'd like the >two dashes that are put above the signature, removed. In particular, they >offend my sense of aesthetics; and if I did want them, I could always put >them in my signature file. Two points here. First, the two dashes are used by some mailers and other programs to deliminate the end of the message. If you remove the dashes then a program would have no way of knowing where the message ended and the signature began. Second, rn and/or postnews will not accept a .signature file with more than 4 lines in it. If the dashes are put in the .signature file then there is one line less for the signature. JB -- Jonathan Bayer Beware: The light at the end of the Intelligent Software Products, Inc. tunnel may be an oncoming dragon 500 Oakwood Ave. ...uunet!ispi!root Roselle Park, NJ 07204 (201) 245-5922 jbayer@ispi.UUCP
plocher%sally@Sun.COM (John Plocher) (05/26/89)
+---- In <616@ispi.UUCP> Jonathan Bayer writes: | +---- In <224@levels.sait.edu.au> DAVID NEWALL is paraphrased: | | I'd like to see the two dashes that are put above the signature removed. | +---- I agree. | Two points here. First, the two dashes are used by some mailers and | other programs to deliminate the end of the message. If you remove | the dashes then a program would have no way of knowing where the message | ended and the signature began. This "feature" is not specified in any RFC that I know of. The Body of a message is EVERYTHING in that message following the headers. Including signatures. Including "included" signatures. This is NOT an ELM problem. It is the problem of the program that is trying to strip signatures. If *you* need dashes, then *you* put them in your signature. If *I* don't want them, I won't put them in my signature. | Second, rn and/or postnews will not accept a .signature file with more | than 4 lines in it. Then change rn - it *is* configurable. Or better yet, shrink your signature. This is NOT an ELM problem. Let's look at the header in this message (and allow me to make a few comments) (I'm not really picking on Jonathan here, just trying to show you all where I am coming from) | From: jbayer@ispi.UUCP (Jonathan Bayer) | Newsgroups: comp.mail.elm | Subject: Re: A suggestion: Remove dashes from signature | Message-ID: <616@ispi.UUCP> | Date: 25 May 89 15:25:37 GMT | References: <224@levels.sait.edu.au> | Reply-To: jbayer@ispi.UUCP (Jonathan Bayer) | Organization: Intelligent Software Products, Inc. | Lines: 21 (And the signature) | JB | -- | Jonathan Bayer Beware: The light at the end of the | Intelligent Software Products, Inc. tunnel may be an oncoming dragon | 500 Oakwood Ave. ...uunet!ispi!root | Roselle Park, NJ 07204 (201) 245-5922 jbayer@ispi.UUCP In the header we have: Johathan's full name Jonathan's company name Jonathan's domain address (and it is wrong - .UUCP is not a domain) In the signature which can't spare a line to put in dashes we have: Johathan's initials (THIS is a valid signature!) Johathan's full name (A repeat from the headers) Jonathan's company name (A repeat from the headers) Jonathan's uucp address (useful) Jonathan's domain address (and it is wrong - .UUCP is not a domain) Jonathan's US MAIL address (Why bother? We have email) Jonathan's Phone number (A good thing to have) A cute quote (uugh. I hate them things :-) If we get rid of the stuff which is ALREADY in the headers we get: > JB ...uunet!ispi!root > 500 Oakwood Ave. Roselle Park, NJ 07204 (201) 245-5922 > Beware: The light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming dragon If we get rid of the useless stuff (quotes :-) we get: > JB ...uunet!ispi!root (201) 245-5922 Lots of room for the dashes IF YOU NEED THEM. - John Plocher
jbayer@ispi.UUCP (Jonathan Bayer) (05/26/89)
In article <106806@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> plocher@sun.com (John Plocher) writes: }+---- In <616@ispi.UUCP> Jonathan Bayer writes: }| +---- In <224@levels.sait.edu.au> DAVID NEWALL is paraphrased: }| | I'd like to see the two dashes that are put above the signature removed. }| +---- } }I agree. } }| Two points here. First, the two dashes are used by some mailers and }| other programs to deliminate the end of the message. If you remove }| the dashes then a program would have no way of knowing where the message }| ended and the signature began. } }This "feature" is not specified in any RFC that I know of. The Body of }a message is EVERYTHING in that message following the headers. Including }signatures. Including "included" signatures. As far as I know this is not a feature from an RFC, it is instead an ad-hoc standard. Many different mailers and programs work this way. } }This is NOT an ELM problem. It is the problem of the program that is trying }to strip signatures. If *you* need dashes, then *you* put them in your signature. }If *I* don't want them, I won't put them in my signature. } }| Second, rn and/or postnews will not accept a .signature file with more }| than 4 lines in it. } }Then change rn - it *is* configurable. Or better yet, shrink your signature. }This is NOT an ELM problem. While I have the source to rn, many people do not. While shrinking a signature is a possibility, sometimes there is a valid need for 4 lines. } }Let's look at the header in this message (and allow me to make a few comments) }(I'm not really picking on Jonathan here, just trying to show you all where }I am coming from) Understood. I am not picking on you here, just trying to respond in a rational manner. (flames to /dev/null) } }| From: jbayer@ispi.UUCP (Jonathan Bayer) }| Newsgroups: comp.mail.elm }| Subject: Re: A suggestion: Remove dashes from signature }| Message-ID: <616@ispi.UUCP> }| Date: 25 May 89 15:25:37 GMT }| References: <224@levels.sait.edu.au> }| Reply-To: jbayer@ispi.UUCP (Jonathan Bayer) }| Organization: Intelligent Software Products, Inc. }| Lines: 21 } }(And the signature) } }| JB }| -- }| Jonathan Bayer Beware: The light at the end of the }| Intelligent Software Products, Inc. tunnel may be an oncoming dragon }| 500 Oakwood Ave. ...uunet!ispi!root }| Roselle Park, NJ 07204 (201) 245-5922 jbayer@ispi.UUCP } }In the header we have: } Johathan's full name } Jonathan's company name } Jonathan's domain address (and it is wrong - .UUCP is not a domain) I agree. However, most mailers will recognize .UUCP and route mail appropriately. } }In the signature which can't spare a line to put in dashes we have: } Johathan's initials (THIS is a valid signature!) The initials are my personalized signature. Sometimes I sign mail differently. The dashes seperate my message from my standard signature which goes on all my mail. } Johathan's full name (A repeat from the headers) } Jonathan's company name (A repeat from the headers) } Jonathan's uucp address (useful) } Jonathan's domain address (and it is wrong - .UUCP is not a domain) Tell smail that .uucp is not a domain. I kept having problems with the mail subsystem until it was pointed out that smail needed a domain if the "@" addressing is used. Bang addressing does not need a domain. } Jonathan's US MAIL address (Why bother? We have email) It is difficult to send a book via e-mail. The reason for repeating the full US Mail address at the end is in case someone wants to send something by mail/ups/etc they won't have to refer to different areas of the article. If the article is printed out then the entire address is located at one spot. It is also useful if you want to cut out an address/phone # and put it somewhere else. } Jonathan's Phone number (A good thing to have) } A cute quote (uugh. I hate them things :-) The quote is a space filler. It doesn't have to be there. } }If we get rid of the stuff which is ALREADY in the headers we get: } }> JB ...uunet!ispi!root }> 500 Oakwood Ave. Roselle Park, NJ 07204 (201) 245-5922 }> Beware: The light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming dragon } }If we get rid of the useless stuff (quotes :-) we get: } }> JB ...uunet!ispi!root (201) 245-5922 } }Lots of room for the dashes IF YOU NEED THEM. What if somebody else needs it? The dashes do not take up much space, and they make it convienent for those people and systems which do need them. -- Jonathan Bayer Beware: The light at the end of the Intelligent Software Products, Inc. tunnel may be an oncoming dragon 500 Oakwood Ave. ...uunet!ispi!root Roselle Park, NJ 07204 (201) 245-5922 jbayer@ispi.UUCP
ccdn@levels.sait.edu.au (DAVID NEWALL) (05/30/89)
rIn <616@ispi.UUCP> Jonathan Bayer writes: -- | +---- In <224@levels.sait.edu.au> DAVID NEWALL is paraphrased: | | I'd like to see the two dashes that are put above the signature removed. | +---- | Two points here. First, the two dashes are used by some mailers and | other programs to deliminate the end of the message. If you remove | the dashes then a program would have no way of knowing where the message | ended and the signature began. -- <---- (OK, I admit it looks ugly. But I'm feeling pedantic) No offense intended, but I think this is silly argument for keeping the dashes. Many programs are brain dead, but I see no reason to introduce obnoxious features in elm, just to cater to them. And anyway: how can a program *reliably* remove signatures by looking for dashes? Such a program would remove *all* of this message! (And I bet no-one would use such a simple minded program, except in special cases). > In article <106806@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> plocher@sun.com (John Plocher) writes: > }+---- In <616@ispi.UUCP> Jonathan Bayer writes: > }| Second, rn and/or postnews will not accept a .signature file with more > }| than 4 lines in it. > } > }Then change rn - it *is* configurable. Or better yet, shrink your signature. > }This is NOT an ELM problem. > > While I have the source to rn, many people do not. While shrinking a > signature is a possibility, sometimes there is a valid need for 4 lines. Isn't it safe to say that if people have access to the net, they also have access to the source to rn? Look! This dashes thing: it's easy to resolve: Let people put the dashes in their signature file if they want them. Then they can either have a long (four lines, in rn) signature without dashes, or an ugly one with them. :-). But seriously, let's not put inappropriate features in elm, just because they have been put in other programs. I mean, that's the worst reason for doing something. > In article <106806@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> plocher@sun.com (John Plocher) writes: > The quote is a space filler. It doesn't have to be there. But there isn't room for dashes, huh? (That was a low blow, wasn't it). David Newall Phone: +61 8 343 3160 Unix Systems Programmer Fax: +61 8 349 6939 Academic Computing Service E-mail: ccdn@levels.sait.oz.au SA Institute of Technology Post: The Levels, South Australia, 5095