santosh@cheviot.uucp (Santosh Shrivastava) (09/10/85)
Job Opportunities in Distributed Systems Research
*************************************
I am looking for research associates (initially
one, later on a second one) to participate in an ALVEY/SERC funded research
project entitled "A Programming System for Reliable Distributed Computing".
The work will involve research in the application of atomic action based
techniques to the construction of robust distributed programs (some buzzwords
are: RPCs, robust objects, commit protocols, concurrency control for objects,
backward error recovery etc.). Strong emphasis will be placed on experimental
work over Unix based systems (4.2 on Sun, Vaxen ....)
The appointments will be for the duration of three years, on the
standard IA salary scale: 7520- 12150 Pounds/year according to age
qualifications and experience. Enquries/Applications (naming three referees)
to: S.K. Shrivastava, Computing Laboratory, The University, Newcastle upon Tyne,
NE1 7RU, England.
Santosh Shrivastava - Computing Lab., Univ. of Newcastle upon Tyne
ARPA : santosh%cheviot.newcastle@ucl-cs.ARPA
UUCP : <UK>!ukc!cheviot!santosh
JANET : santosh@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviotrcj@burl.UUCP (Curtis Jackson) (09/12/85)
In article <429@cheviot.uucp> santosh@cheviot.UUCP (Santosh Shrivastava) writes: > The appointments will be for the duration of three years, on the >standard IA salary scale: 7520- 12150 Pounds/year according to age >qualifications and experience... <flame on!!> AGE?!?! You're going to seriously base a person's salary on, among other things, \age/ ? I sincerely hope you get NO applicants whatsoever for these positions, with a discriminatory attitude like that! How do you figure that age weighting on the salary? "Well, the younger one's got more experience and better education, but the old fart's been around for quite a few -- that ought to be worth a few quid indeed." Or maybe: "The older man has the experience and better qualifications, but he's sure to be settled in and burned out by now just because he's older; let's up the young whippersnapper's salary accordingly." Let's try judging on \individual merits/, not whether one is Republican or Democrat, black or white, OR old or young. <flame off> Seriously, if you have some set weighting of salary based on age I'd love to see it -- I'd be very interested (in a sick sort of way) in how it is implemented. -- The MAD Programmer -- 919-228-3313 (Cornet 291) alias: Curtis Jackson ...![ ihnp4 ulysses cbosgd mgnetp ]!burl!rcj ...![ ihnp4 cbosgd akgua masscomp ]!clyde!rcj
dimario@ihlpg.UUCP (Michael J. DiMario) (09/12/85)
> In article <429@cheviot.uucp> santosh@cheviot.UUCP (Santosh Shrivastava) writes: > > The appointments will be for the duration of three years, on the > >standard IA salary scale: 7520- 12150 Pounds/year according to age > >qualifications and experience... > > <flame on!!> > > AGE?!?! You're going to seriously base a person's salary on, among other > things, \age/ ? I sincerely hope you get NO applicants whatsoever for these > positions, with a discriminatory attitude like that! > > How do you figure that age weighting on the salary? > > "Well, the younger one's got more experience and better education, but the > old fart's been around for quite a few -- that ought to be worth a few quid > indeed." > > Or maybe: > > "The older man has the experience and better qualifications, but he's sure to > be settled in and burned out by now just because he's older; let's up the > young whippersnapper's salary accordingly." > > Let's try judging on \individual merits/, not whether one is Republican or > Democrat, black or white, OR old or young. > > <flame off> > > Seriously, if you have some set weighting of salary based on age I'd love to > see it -- I'd be very interested (in a sick sort of way) in how it is > implemented. > -- > > The MAD Programmer -- 919-228-3313 (Cornet 291) > alias: Curtis Jackson ...![ ihnp4 ulysses cbosgd mgnetp ]!burl!rcj > ...![ ihnp4 cbosgd akgua masscomp ]!clyde!rcj I concur with your view! Such attitudes and discrimination policies are indicative with the British unrest internal and external to England. But, it may also be typical of European hiring practises. It is discouraging to see such views on an American net.
brett@alberta.UUCP (Brett Hammerlindl) (09/13/85)
In article <1228@ihlpg.UUCP> dimario@ihlpg.UUCP (Michael J. DiMario) writes: >... >But, it may also be typical of European hiring practises. It is discouraging >to see such views on an American net. net.jobs is a world-wide network. That means is extented outside of the U.S.A. That means it is not "an American net". I am sure you offended hunderds of people on the net and fell an apology is in order.
dsi@unccvax.UUCP (Dataspan Inc) (09/13/85)
Keep in mind that the posting was obstensibly British, which may or may not have age discrimination laws (wasn't it one of the major DOD contractors which got roasted for publishing an ad recently looking for 'recent graduates' in EE times?). Nevertheless, it might be a very good idea for the gentleman to conform to US laws. (Many newspapers in the US have a corporate policy against such copy . . .) dya .
dimario@ihlpg.UUCP (Michael J. DiMario) (09/13/85)
> In article <1228@ihlpg.UUCP> dimario@ihlpg.UUCP (Michael J. DiMario) writes: > >... > >But, it may also be typical of European hiring practises. It is discouraging > >to see such views on an American net. > > net.jobs is a world-wide network. > That means is extented outside of the U.S.A. > That means it is not "an American net". > I am sure you offended hunderds of people on the net and > fell an apology is in order. Sorry for the oversite, I meant to say ... It is discouraging to see such views at sites on the net in America. Rebuttles??????? Flames ????????????? mike dimario 312/979-5397 ~ihnp4!ihlpg!dimario
absary@watrose.UUCP (Al Sary) (09/14/85)
In article 1402 brett@alberta.UUCP (Brett Hammerlindl) writes: > In article <1228@ihlpg.UUCP> dimario@ihlpg.UUCP (Michael J. DiMario) writes: > >... > >But, it may also be typical of European hiring practises. It is discouraging > >to see such views on an American net. > > net.jobs is a world-wide network. > That means is extented outside of the U.S.A. > That means it is not "an American net". > I am sure you offended hunderds of people on the net and > fell an apology is in order. I agree totally with Brett Hammerlindl. Some people in the US seem to think that "America" is the only place that counts. Perhaps the statement "an American net" may apply to some networks but certainly not to net.jobs to which people from all over the world subscribe. I was also offended by "European hiring practices". That phrase generalizes a discriminatory statement made by one European company (or university in this case) to all of Europe. Saying that a company discriminates because it's European is nothing better than saying that an old person should get paid more than a young person. (don't misunderstand me here; I do agree with the original complaint against discriminating based on age, or anything else for that matter, including a person's hair style). If you have nothing to say, don't say it.
bch@mcnc.UUCP (Byron C. Howes) (09/14/85)
No apologies are in order. What we're doing here, folks, is invoking
sanctions. Many of us do not believe that age (old or young) is a
valid reason for pay differential when all other criteria are held
equal. That this form of discrimination may not contravene the laws of
countries other than the U.S. is beside the point. We are simply
trying to discourage candidates who otherwise might be interested from
applying to a company that discriminates because of age. That is very
much within our rights.
I, very much, would appreciate a clarification from the original poster.
--
Byron C. Howes
...!{decvax,akgua}!mcnc!ecsvax!bchfdc@cstvax.UUCP (Frank Cringle) (09/15/85)
In article <1228@ihlpg.UUCP> dimario@ihlpg.UUCP (Michael J. DiMario) writes: [ much quoting of british job offer with age dependant salary range, and follow-up flame ] I quite agree that this demonstrates the archaic nature of british society, Mrs. T. notwithstanding. Age discrimination (positive correlation of salary with years) is a basic feature of public service pay-scales here, and the principle applies in education too. It is not so bad in industry. We just lost an excellent technician who was at the top of the scale for his age. The only way he could earn more was by waiting for his next birthday - or by moving to an employer with a more rational rewards policy, which he did. >But, it may also be typical of European hiring practises. It is discouraging >to see such views on an American net. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Cultural imperialism is a wee bit archaic, too. -- Frank Cringle, Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Edinburgh UUCP: <UK>!ukc!{hwcs,kcl-cs,ucl-cs,edcaad}!cstvax!fdc JANET: fdc@UK.AC.ed.cstvax or fdc@UK.AC.ed.ecsvax
phil@unisoft.UUCP (phil ronzone) (09/15/85)
In article <1228@ihlpg.UUCP> dimario@ihlpg.UUCP (Michael J. DiMario) writes: >> In article <429@cheviot.uucp> santosh@cheviot.UUCP (Santosh Shrivastava) writes: >> > The appointments will be for the duration of three years, on the >> >standard IA salary scale: 7520- 12150 Pounds/year according to age >> >qualifications and experience... >> >> <flame on!!> >> >> AGE?!?! You're going to seriously base a person's salary on, among other >> things, \age/ ? I sincerely hope you get NO applicants whatsoever for these >> positions, with a discriminatory attitude like that! >> >> How do you figure that age weighting on the salary? >> >> "Well, the younger one's got more experience and better education, but the >> old fart's been around for quite a few -- that ought to be worth a few quid >> indeed." >> >> Or maybe: >> >> "The older man has the experience and better qualifications, but he's sure to >> be settled in and burned out by now just because he's older; let's up the >> young whippersnapper's salary accordingly." >> >> Let's try judging on \individual merits/, not whether one is Republican or >> Democrat, black or white, OR old or young. >> >> <flame off> >> >> Seriously, if you have some set weighting of salary based on age I'd love to >> see it -- I'd be very interested (in a sick sort of way) in how it is >> implemented. >> -- >> >> The MAD Programmer -- 919-228-3313 (Cornet 291) >> alias: Curtis Jackson ...![ ihnp4 ulysses cbosgd mgnetp ]!burl!rcj >> ...![ ihnp4 cbosgd akgua masscomp ]!clyde!rcj > >I concur with your view! Such attitudes and discrimination policies are >indicative with the British unrest internal and external to England. >But, it may also be typical of European hiring practises. It is discouraging >to see such views on an American net. Tut-tut, old boy (attempted English colloq.) -- think how a ``European'' must feel when seeing the phrase ``affirmitive action''. Perhaps the mention of age indicates some type of hiring decision based on age. Is that any better or worse than hiring based on skin color i.e., racism? (Affirmitive action is the name for a social policy in the United States which places the color of the skin as a major determinant in the hiring decision. Since I can't see how that can be a rational basis for most hiring decisions, I tend to call it racism.). Perhaps the EC should ban American net.job opportunities with the phrase ``affirmitive action'' in them? Oh well, I supposed this had better move to net.flame REAL QUICK. Respond there, oh flamers ... ``Forgive him, Caesar, for he is a barbarian and thinks the ways of his tribe are the laws of nature ...''
santosh@cheviot.uucp (Santosh Shrivastava) (09/16/85)
In article <1228@ihlpg.UUCP> dimario@ihlpg.UUCP (Michael J. DiMario) writes: >> In article <429@cheviot.uucp> santosh@cheviot.UUCP (Santosh Shrivastava) writes: >> > The appointments will be for the duration of three years, on the >> >standard IA salary scale: 7520- 12150 Pounds/year according to age >> >qualifications and experience... >> >> <flame on!!> >> >> AGE?!?! You're going to seriously base a person's salary on, among other >> things, \age/ ? I sincerely hope you get NO applicants whatsoever for these >> positions, with a discriminatory attitude like that! >> >> How do you figure that age weighting on the salary? >> >> >> <flame off> >> >> Seriously, if you have some set weighting of salary based on age I'd love to >> see it -- I'd be very interested (in a sick sort of way) in how it is >> implemented. >> -- >> >> The MAD Programmer -- 919-228-3313 (Cornet 291) >> alias: Curtis Jackson ...![ ihnp4 ulysses cbosgd mgnetp ]!burl!rcj >> ...![ ihnp4 cbosgd akgua masscomp ]!clyde!rcj > >I concur with your view! Such attitudes and discrimination policies are >indicative with the British unrest internal and external to England. >But, it may also be typical of European hiring practises. It is discouraging >to see such views on an American net. **************************************************************** Honestly! You guys are getting worked up over nothing. Nowhere did I imply that 'to be an old person' would be a handicap. The salary algorithm works as follows: if A > B, (where '>' means older) and A and B are doing similar jobs and have similar educational qualificatios, then A is likely to be earning a bit more than B. (There can be exceptions to this, but that is how roughly the system works). Less competetive is'nt it? Whether it is descriminatory or not is a matter of what political views you have, but I do'nt think we should argue it here.
dss00@amdahl.UUCP (dss00) (09/16/85)
> > In article <429@cheviot.uucp> santosh@cheviot.UUCP (Santosh Shrivastava) writes: > > > The appointments will be for the duration of three years, on the > > >standard IA salary scale: 7520- 12150 Pounds/year according to age > > >qualifications and experience... > > some flames here about AGE as one of the criterion for deciding wages. > I concur with your view! Such attitudes and discrimination policies are > indicative with the British unrest internal and external to England. > But, it may also be typical of European hiring practises. Just for the record, in some societies on this earth, more age is associated with more maturity and old age is respected. Personally I see nothing wrong with it. What brought legislations against age discrimination in the U.S. (I think), was the practice of getting rid of older workers, who were paid higher, needed more time off (presumably due to added family responsibilities and/or poorer health) compared to the younger lot, and probably likely closer to retirement (thus costing the company in retirement benefits). >It is discouraging > to see such views on an American net. Ah! Indeed. I always thought that this was a world wide net. -- Deepak S. Sabnis ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,amd,nsc}!amdahl!dss00 (408) 746-6058 (Usual Disclaimer Here)
tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (09/17/85)
> The salary algorithm works as follows: if A > B, (where '>' means older) and > A and B are doing similar jobs and have similar educational qualificatios, > then A is likely to be earning a bit more than B. (There can be exceptions > to this, but that is how roughly the system works). Less competetive is'nt > it? Whether it is descriminatory or not is a matter of what political views > you have, but I do'nt think we should argue it here. Santosh, what you are saying is apparently perfectly clear to you, but I'm not following you. Are you saying that an older person would =likely= be given a higher salary because her or his salary history is likely to demand it; or are you saying that =regardless= of salary history, an older person will be given a higher salary than a younger person? By the way, I don't think anyone thought you were suggesting discrimination against the elderly; rather the other way around. And that age-based pay is "discriminatory" is =not= a matter of politics; discrimination is a fact, not an opinion; look up the word if you're unclear on it. The political question is whether this is justifiable discrimination. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"
bc@cyb-eng.UUCP (Bill Crews) (09/18/85)
> No apologies are in order. What we're doing here, folks, is invoking > sanctions. Many of us do not believe that age (old or young) is a > valid reason for pay differential when all other criteria are held > equal. That this form of discrimination may not contravene the laws of > countries other than the U.S. is beside the point. We are simply > trying to discourage candidates who otherwise might be interested from > applying to a company that discriminates because of age. That is very > much within our rights. People, PLEASE. The purpose of net.jobs is presumably for those knowing either of open positions or of deserving souls to make these opportunities known, so that other netters may take advantage of them. If you don't like some-one's practices, especially those of another culture, please turn to net.politics, net.flame, or elsewhere to complain. The net is a hostile enough place as it is. Others may dislike many of our practices as well. -- / \ Bill Crews ( bc ) Cyb Systems, Inc \__/ Austin, Texas [ gatech | ihnp4 | nbires | seismo | ucbvax ] ! ut-sally ! cyb-eng ! bc
scarter@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Stephen M. Carter) (09/19/85)
In article <539@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA> tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: >> The salary algorithm works as follows: if A > B, (where '>' means older) and >> A and B are doing similar jobs and have similar educational qualificatios, >> then A is likely to be earning a bit more than B. (There can be exceptions >> to this, but that is how roughly the system works). Less competetive is'nt >> it? Whether it is descriminatory or not is a matter of what political views >> you have, but I do'nt think we should argue it here. > Now I am really confused. Would not such an algorithm such as this actually discriminate against the people (older group) that you are trying to help? It is all well in good if everyone has unlimited budgets and really believes in that sort of thing, but money is money and some people (and companies) try to save it. Given two people, one old, one young and limited funds would want me to hire the younger one.... Again, given that the whole social group (young and old) supports giving older people more money and it really works, it is kind of a nice idea. Who are we (the U.S.) to say that is wrong... I am 25, so I'll just stay here a few more years.... SCarter