ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) (02/03/89)
I have heard that HP's TCP/IP implementation, when sending over Ethernet, uses IEEE802.3 data link format (i.e. packet length, SSAP and DSAP) instead of Ethernet V2 format (i.e. protocol type) like most Unixes. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Specifically, I need to know if one can put an HP machine and one of our own boxes (which will only speak Ethernet V2 format) on an Ethernet and have them communicate. If the answer is that the HP box will only talk 802.3 format, can someone suggest an inexpensive bridge/router/etc box that could translate between the two? Thank you in advance. -- Ted Marshall ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted <or> mtxinu!blia!ted@Berkeley.EDU Britton Lee, Inc., 14600 Winchester Blvd, Los Gatos, Ca 95030 (408)378-7000 The opinions expressed above are those of the poster and not his employer.
jdm@starfish.Convergent.COM (John McLean) (02/03/89)
From article <6402@blia.BLI.COM>, by ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall): > > I have heard that HP's TCP/IP implementation, when sending over Ethernet, > uses IEEE802.3 data link format (i.e. packet length, SSAP and DSAP) > instead of Ethernet V2 format (i.e. protocol type) like most Unixes. This is correct; the encapsulation used by the HP's is IEEE802.3. They also use PROBE for address resolution (instead of ARP). In addition, HP has their own set of user-level programs (instead of TELNET and FTP). I guess HP really did want to have it *their* own way! We have been able to get our UNIX hosts to communicate with a HP3000/CLASSIC by doing the following: 1. Purchasing a gateway server box from cisco. This box does the conversion from Ethernet 2.0 to IEEE802.3 encapsulation. (The gateway server understands both PROBE and ARP, however, we are currently operating from manually-created IP-to-Ethernet address entries.) 2. Purchasing the WIN/HP product from Wollongong. This package includes TELNET and FTP. It runs on the HP3000/CLASSIC model only. (We also have two HP3000/SPECTRUM systems; the WIN/HP product does not run on these systems.) All of our HP systems are on the same physical ethernet as the UNIX hosts. Of course, this means that all data from the UNIX systems to the HP systems goes thru the net twice; the additional overhead has not caused a problem yet. John McLean jdm@starfish.Convergent.COM Systems Engineer Convergent Technologies ---
JOHN@MATHOM.CISCO.COM (John Wright) (02/03/89)
Yes, it is my understanding that they need some sort of translator. The company I work for makes a router device which also can act as a 802.3/V2 converter it supports both Probe & ARP. If you would like more information we can send you something in the mail. Make a request to 'customer-service@cisco.com', as I am about to leave town for a while. John Wright Customer Engineer cisco Systems, Inc. 1350 Willow Rd Menlo Park, CA 94205 (415) 326-1941 -------
slevy@UC.MSC.UMN.EDU ("Stuart Levy") (02/04/89)
For HP 9000's at least, you're not stuck with IEEE encapsulation -- it's a configurable option whether to use 802.3 or standard Ethernet IP encapsulation. We're using one right on our Ethernet, it interoperates just fine. I don't know about the HP 3000 series, though. Stuart Levy, Minnesota Supecomputer Center slevy@uc.msc.umn.edu
stev@VAX.FTP.COM (02/04/89)
*Yes, it is my understanding that they need some sort of translator. The *company I work for makes a router device which also can act as a *802.3/V2 converter it supports both Probe & ARP. If you would like *more information we can send you something in the mail. Make a request *to 'customer-service@cisco.com', as I am about to leave town for a while. *John Wright *cisco Systems, Inc. i believe that only the 3000 is like this. i thought that the 9000 could speak this "special IP" to act as a gateway. i was also under the impression that it wasnt even "real" ehternet based IP they were using, they didnt use ARP or something. i am sure someone from HP will set us all straight, though . . . . stev knowles ftp software
medin@NSIPO.NASA.GOV ("Milo S. Medin", NASA ARC NSI Project Office) (02/04/89)
An even better solution is to throw away HP-UX, and run 4.3 BSD on your 9000 series. Then you get full 4.3 networking code, and all the other things 4.3 gives you that HP-UX doesn't. It works quite well, and you can get from the folks at Utah. Maybe one of them would like to send out information on how to get the distribution. Some people STILL don't understand that people buy Unix systems for compatibility and portability. Sigh... Thanks, Milo PS Standard disclaimers apply re: US Government, NASA, etc... IE, this should not be construed as an official position, but the you probably realized that already.
kincl@KITZBUHL.IAG.HP.COM (Norman Kincl) (02/04/89)
HP9000 (UNIX systems) speak both 802.2 and Ethernet V2 encapsulation. They can communicate transparently with either protocol. Nothing special is required to make this work. HP3000 (MPE systems) currently only speak 802.2 encapsulation. A cisco box can translate from this to Ethernet encapsulation. -Norm Kincl Information Architecture Group Hewlett-Packard
mah@hpuviea.UUCP (Michael Haberler) (02/06/89)
From article <6402@blia.BLI.COM>, by ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall): > > I have heard that HP's TCP/IP implementation, when sending over Ethernet, > uses IEEE802.3 data link format (i.e. packet length, SSAP and DSAP) > instead of Ethernet V2 format (i.e. protocol type) like most Unixes. ^^^^^^^^^^ replace by 'and'. All HP 9000 series 300 and 800 talk both. The HP 3000 series currently only speak IEEE802.3. > Can anyone confirm or deny this? Specifically, I need to know if one > can put an HP machine and one of our own boxes (which will only speak > Ethernet V2 format) on an Ethernet and have them communicate. You wont have any problems with the default setup, which is to talk both protocols concurrently. -michael -- Michael Haberler mah@hpuviea.uucp Hewlett-Packard Austria GmbH, ...mcvax!tuvie!hpuviea!mah Lieblgasse 1 ...hplabs!hpfcla!hpbbn!hpuviea!mah A-1220 Vienna, Austria Tel: (0043) (222) 2500 x412 (9-18 CET)
wunder@HP-SDE.SDE.HP.COM (Walter Underwood) (02/07/89)
OK, here is the real story. I work for HP, and this information is from recent printed information announcing new products. Up to now, the HP3000 has only used 802.3 encapsulation with the old IP-over-802.3 standard. This was done in the naive expectation that an official standard was the right way to go. Anyway, with the V-Delta-5 release of MPE for the "classic" HP3000, Ethernet and ARP are supported. It has TCP/IP of course, and there are two sets of services available: the NS services, which are HP proprietary and tweaked for the 3000 (sort of like STRU VMS, but not based on FTP), avalable from HP; and regular ARPA services (Telnet, FTP, and SMTP), available from The Wollongong Group. The HP3000 can also talk IP over X.25 links, but I'm not sure of the exact encapsulation for that. The HP3000 does not have UDP. The Precsion Architecture HP3000 (OS is MPE/XL, machines are HP3000/935, HP3000/950, etc.) has TCP/IP and the NS services, but does not have ARPA services or Ethernet/ARP. Ethernet/ARP is promised, though I don't know which release, and I don't know whether we have promised ARPA services. The HP9000 (Unix) systems, both Motorola and Precision Architecture (aka "Spectrum") have ARPA, Berkeley, and NS services; TCP/IP; Ethernet and 802.3 (old); IP-over-X.25 (DDN, I think, s800 only?); and soon, Jacobson/Karels TCP, BIND (supported), and probably other stuff. The HP1000 has TCP/IP, NS services, and 802.3 (old). We resell FTP Software, Inc.'s PC/FTP for the HP Vectra PC's as PC/ARPA. I don't know whether 802.3/SNAP is planned for any of our systems. Clear? Walter Underwood HP Software Engineering Systems PS: I think that the Wollongong product for the HP3000 is called WIN/H3000 (is that right, Dave?). Also, the HP3000 *always* talks half-duplex to its terminals, so client Telnet can be aggravating if you are talking to a full-duplex application.
klaas@hpindda.HP.COM (Darin J Klaas) (02/07/89)
/ hpindda:comp.protocols.tcp-ip / stev@VAX.FTP.COM / 10:11 am Feb 3, 1989 / > i believe that only the 3000 is like this. i thought that the 9000 > could speak this "special IP" to act as a gateway. i was also under the > impression that it wasnt even "real" ehternet based IP they were using, > they didnt use ARP or something. > i am sure someone from HP will set us all straight, though . . . . > stev knowles > ftp software > ---------- To rescue HP's reputation ... (:-) The Series 9000's can talk either ethernet or 803.3; its a configurable on a per interface basis. The ethernet is standard ethernet, nothing special. You can even configure it to talk both on the same interface. Beware that currently HP-UX will prefer to talk 802.3 over ethernet if given the choice. The series 3000's are a different story; they talk 802.3 exclusively, although I've heard that straight ARP and ethernet are coming to a MPE system near you soon. In either case, if you wish to talk 802.3 to an HP machine, you must use HP's proprietary address resolution protocol, Probe ; ethernet uses ARP. / hpindda:comp.protocols.tcp-ip / medin@NSIPO.NASA.GOV ("Milo S. Medin", NASA ARC NSI Project Office) / 11:03 am Feb 3, 1989 / > An even better solution is to throw away HP-UX, and run 4.3 BSD on your > 9000 series. Then you get full 4.3 networking code, and all the other things > 4.3 gives you that HP-UX doesn't. It works quite well, and you > can get from the folks at Utah. Maybe one of them would like to send > out information on how to get the distribution. > > Some people STILL don't understand that people buy Unix systems for > compatibility and portability. Sigh... > > Thanks, > Milo We've heard this over and over again, and we are working toward a resolution. Many people at HP DO realize that compatability is of utmost importance. Stay tuned ... -- darin klaas klaas@hpda
dbercel@twg-ap.UUCP (Danielle S. Bercel) (02/08/89)
In article <8902061939.AA26324@hp-ses.sde.hp.com>, wunder@HP-SDE.SDE.HP.COM (Walter Underwood) writes: > > Walter Underwood > HP Software Engineering Systems > > PS: I think that the Wollongong product for the HP3000 is called > WIN/H3000 (is that right, Dave?). Also, the HP3000 *always* talks > half-duplex to its terminals, so client Telnet can be aggravating if > you are talking to a full-duplex application. The product is called WIN/TCP for MPE/V. Release 1.1 is available and this includes block mode support through our telnet server. The half-duplex communication in character mode is certainly not the best of circumstances and it is for this reason that the 3000 telnet client comes up in line mode. danielle bercel Project leader, WIN/TCP for MPE/V -- Danielle Bercel - Senior Software Engineer - The Wollongong Group Email: dbercel@twg-ap.com or dbercel@twg.com US Mail: 1129 San Antonio Rd. * Palo Alto, CA. 94303 * (415)962-7160
kincl@hpiag2.iag.hp.com (Norman Kincl) (02/08/89)
> HP3000 (MPE systems) currently only speak 802.2 encapsulation. A cisco box can ^^^^^^^^^ > translate from this to Ethernet encapsulation. A correction---as of version V-Delta-5, MPE-V supports BOTH 802.3 and standard Ethernet encapsulation. This includes ARP. As with the HP 9000, it is transparent to botht he user and the system administrator which protocol is being used. For MPE-XL, Ethernet compatability is a stated direction, the schedule is under investigation. -Norm Kincl Information Architecture Group Hewlett-Packard