kad@ttrdc.UUCP (Keith Drescher) (12/16/85)
Out out damn line-eater. In article <641@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes: > >Ya wanna know another place that's incredible (that is, incredible that >people actually work there)? Try Lincoln Electric (name may be slightly >off) in Cleveland, Ohio. They proudly bill themselves as something which, >if not a sweatshop, comes quite close. They are 1000% anti-union, not to >say that unions are all that marvelous [that's another issue] but they are >really rabid. Their main product is electric welding machines, and all who >are hired there, even engineers, supposedly must do a tour of factory work >and other positions related to the manual aspect of production, in a sort >of baptism of fire in the first year. Their saving grace is that the money >can be VERY good (if you are a ruthless opportunist and/or tireless slave and/ >or backstabber) in the catch-as-catch-can environment they offer (which is not >chaotic, however; they out-Japan Japan in their efficiency). I spoke with >a representative of them at UIUC out of curiosity after receiving an invi- >tation to do so, and I was truly amazed, to put it mildly. I swore I would >not touch them with a ten foot pole after reading what they passed out at >the pre-interview presentation (which I missed due to another engagement, and >got a copy of at the interview itself, but at least I can say they were >brutally honest). If you applied, they wanted to know your scholastic record >clear back to GRADE SCHOOL (they were speaking with engineering B.S. and M.S. >candidates, looking for implementors for computerized automatic welding >equipment designs) and had to have your whole health record back to time of >birth (in all fairness, one WOULD need the constitution of a horse to survive >there). Ugh. Whatta place. > >Anybody else hear of this incredible place? Any inaccuracies in my tale? >(Or is it even worse? :-) >-- > ------------------------------- Disclaimer: The views contained herein are >| dan levy | yvel nad | my own and are not at all those of my em- >| an engihacker @ | ployer or the administrator of any computer >| at&t computer systems division | upon which I may hack. >| skokie, illinois | > -------------------------------- Path: ..!ihnp4!ttrdc!levy To: levy Subject: Re: EDS [and other incredible places!] Newsgroups: net.jobs In-Reply-To: <641@ttrdc.UUCP> References: Upon Request <138@aero.ARPA> Organization: AT&T Computer Systems Division, Skokie, Ill. Cc: Bcc: In article <641@ttrdc.UUCP> you write: >In article <138@aero.ARPA>, kremen@aero.ARPA (Gary Kremen) writes: >>There is an article about working at EDS in today's (December 11) Wall >>Street Journal on page 6. >>I interviewed with EDS last year when I was at school (Northwestern). >>My opinion - which was a general consensus of everyone who interviewed >>with EDS - is they are a great company to stay away from. >>-- >>Name: Gary Kremen > >Ya wanna know another place that's incredible (that is, incredible that >people actually work there)? Try Lincoln Electric (name may be slightly >off) in Cleveland, Ohio. They proudly bill themselves as something which, >if not a sweatshop, comes quite close. They are 1000% anti-union, not to >say that unions are all that marvelous [that's another issue] but they are > really rabid. In all fairness, they're really not that bad. I worked for Lincoln Electric the summer after my freshman year of college, and one of my friends fathers is in charge of plant engineering there (He's an EE if its relevant). Yes they are 1000% anti-union, but they are of course free to go union any time the workers vote to go union. The union people stop by about once a year to try to persuade everyone to join. So far, no go. As for why they won't go union, that's simple - they'll 1) have to pay the ridiculous union dues that unions insist upon, and they'll lose the end of the year bonus that they've grown so fond of. Now most end of the year bonuses aren't so great, but at Lincoln they can amount to MORE than the person's pay for the entire year. It's kind of a profit sharing thing. Everyone gets a percentage of the profits depending on his/her production. When I worked at Lincoln, they had the HIGHEST paid factory workers in the world. I doubt things have changed much, as there's a higher percentage of expensive cars in the factory workers' parking lot than you see in most companies R&D lots, where, presumably you'd expect that there are a lot of highly paid engineers. There benefits aren't bad, and just because the workers are not unionized does not mean that they can go out and fire someone because the boss doesn't like the look of his face. They have a review process just like any other place. > Their main product is electric welding machines, and all who >are hired there, even engineers, supposedly must do a tour of factory work >and other positions related to the manual aspect of production, in a sort >of baptism of fire in the first year. Baptism of fire, I think not - it's a damn good idea. I learned a lot about the way things go in a manufacturing facility by working at Lincoln that summer. It was a far more valuable education than my entire first year of college. The reasoning behind putting an engineer in the factory for a year - could it be to let them learn what it's really like in that environment? It teaches them to design products that are manufacturable. It also teaches them that the person who knows the most about doing a job is the person who has been doing it. These people often have the best ideas on how to improve efficiency and hence reduce costs. None of these ideas are radical, except perhaps in the US. Haven't the Japanese been doing these kinds of things for a while environment to anyone who will ever design anything which has to be manufactured. It's a tremendous learning experience. BTW - if you're in college, it will give you the motivation to continue and not drop out. >Their saving grace is that the money >can be VERY good (if you are a ruthless opportunist and/or tireless slave and/ >or backstabber) in the catch-as-catch-can environment they offer (which is not >chaotic, however; they out-Japan Japan in their efficiency). As mentioned above, the money IS very good - as a matter of fact, most of the bolt turners there are probably making as much as or more than we engineers/ computer specialists reading this net do (no offense meant to the people on the net who are not in one of the preceeding categories, I'm just trying to put things in perspoective). I think it's pretty obvious why people work there - and why they have no shortage of applicants for any available jobs. As for the dog eat dog atmosphere - yes, it exists. People who get paid piecework get upset when the person next to them is keeping them from producing. But it's not that different from union shops where employees will backstab each other in order to look better in their bosses eyes, so as to get a promotion/raise. The people that I talked to there (there were a lot) had no more or fewer complaints about where they worked than did the people at any other place I've ever worked. > I spoke with >a representative of them at UIUC out of curiosity after receiving an invi- >tation to do so, and I was truly amazed, to put it mildly. I swore I would >not touch them with a ten foot pole after reading what they passed out at >the pre-interview presentation (which I missed due to another engagement, and >got a copy of at the interview itself, but at least I can say they were >brutally honest). If you applied, they wanted to know your scholastic record >clear back to GRADE SCHOOL (they were speaking with engineering B.S. and M.S. Were your grades in grade school that bad? :-) >candidates, looking for implementors for computerized automatic welding >equipment designs) and had to have your whole health record back to time of >birth (in all fairness, one WOULD need the constitution of a horse to survive >there). Ugh. Whatta place. All companies want to see your health record, some in more detail than others. Can you accurately judge a place that you've never worked at - or for that matter been to. >Anybody else hear of this incredible place? Any inaccuracies in my tale? Is it really incredible to pay a person according to how well he produces? Keep in mind that there is a base pay/hr involved here, so no one will starve. But the advantages to being a good producer at the place are obvious. They don't stand behind the employees and whip them or anything. There isn't that much turnover at Lincoln, so it must be a workable system. In my opinion, they treat their employees fairly well. One of the things that really hacks me off is to work my hardest and get no more recognition (i.e. CASH) than a person next to me who does nothing but screw around. At Lincoln this doesn't happen. If you work, you get paid well. If you don't, you don't. There's no free lunch >-- > ------------------------------- Disclaimer: The views contained herein are >| dan levy | yvel nad | my own and are not at all those of my em- >| an engihacker @ | ployer or the administrator of any computer >| at&t computer systems division | upon which I may hack. >| skokie, illinois | > -------------------------------- Path: ..!ihnp4!ttrdc!levy Disclaimer: The views above are my own, based on my experience at Lincoln Electric, and the people who I knew and know there (I still have some friends working there). This is not meant as an anti-union diatribe, I'm merely trying to point out that other systems have merit. The major difference that I've noticed between Lincoln and union shops that I worked at is that the Lincoln employees were paid much better. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Drescher (kad@ttrdc) | ... You can check out any AT&T Information Systems | time you like - but you can Computer Systems Division, Skokie, Il. | never leave ... PATH: ...!ihnp4!ttrdc!kad | - Hotel California -------------------------------------------------------------------------