md@mdee.UUCP (Marilyn) (07/19/85)
Marilyn Dee Associates Inc. is a search and recruiting firm for the computer professional. We provide: A variety of opportunities to match yours or your company's needs with highly qualified computer firms and/or professionals. A more intelligent option than sending out numerous resumes or interviewing numerous candidates. On the phone, in privacy, you can discuss your particular goals and ambitions either for you or your company. A timesaver to help the busy computer professional maintain relevant information concerning current openings and available candidates. We specialize in placing scientists and managers in Artficial Intelligence and related system applications. For further information, contact: Marilyn Dee Associates, Inc. 6003 Stearnshill Road Waltham, MA 02154 617-891-3300 ...!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!mdee!root
bob@nbires.UUCP (Bob Bruck) (07/23/85)
I hate to flame, but a certain Headhunting firm in Waltham, Ma. has been posting regularly articles that look (to me) very much like regular ad- vertising. Each time I have seen the postings, the postings appear TWICE in a row with identical wording. Most of the postings I see in net.jobs tell about specific positions available with companies, and many of them require speciallized skills. It is useful to know what kind of positions are available, and with what companies, and mostly what job skills companies are looking for. On the other hand, I already know that there are Headhunters (excuse me, I meant Executive Search Firms) in Waltham, Massachusetts. I am fairly new to this net, but it seems that these postings are not in the spirit of net.jobs. The opinions expressed are my own and do not in any way reflect the opinions of my employer. Bob Bruck NBI Inc. Boulder, Co. (hao | allegra | ...)!nbires!bob
dave@ur-helheim.UUCP (David F. Carlson) (12/11/85)
In article <153@mdee.UUCP> root@mdee.UUCP (root) writes: >Marilyn Dee Associates Inc. is a search and recruiting firm for >the computer professional. > >We provide: > a whole bunch of glossy advertising info > ...!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!mdee!root Headhunters on the net??!! There exist on other nets (.micro.XXXX, .sources, .arch to name a few) rather heated discussions about people making money over the net. None of discussions have been about anything as blatent as this "ad". The irony is that your company is *paying* for UUCP so that this company can try to hire you. Granted, this net is for jobs and people who need jobs, but these people are not offering jobs--they are selling a service. Imagine a net where everyone with something to sell (products and services) needed just a UUCP to reach you, the computer professional. No thanks. "The Faster I Go the Behinder I Get" --Lewis Carroll Dave Carlson {allegra,seismo,decvax}!rochester!ur-valhalla!dave
dat@hpcnof.UUCP (12/12/85)
Terry, I have to disagree. I think that the stated purpose of net.jobs is for "jobs announcements, requests, etc" and that a personnel agency posting a note telling the world at large that they're willing to help place people in challenging new positions is within that purpose. *leaping onto my handy soapbox* As far as paying for free advertising...all the policing in the world isn't going to stop it, and I think that if the postings are relevent and reasonable (and short!) then I'm not adverse to having them. The bottom line is that the net is a FREE system without any constraints on postings, and I'd much rather see a few adverts than the usual drivel out of the mouths of babes at some of the random sites on the nets...or the garbage in net.sources....or better yet, try to imagine how much HP is willing to pay to keep net.flame or net.sources.mac afloat versus this type of posting... As far as their 'unmitigated gall' (I could hear it in my head, sorry) for posting, so what? Are they to wait until a long time in the future to have the air clear? I hate to get on your case, Terry, but I think that the net is already far too cluttered, and if we're going to start policing it, there are many other things that offend me more and cost us more money than a 27 line (or thereabouts) posting from a company that people who read this group are probably quite interested in learning about. On the other hand, I do encourage the personnel groups to minimize the length of their postings... Speaking of which, why is it okay for, say, NCR to post a job opening but not an agency? What's the fundamental difference? *Climbing off of my soapbox* If we all just learned to be more mellow, I think the world would be a far better place to live... -- Dave Taylor Hewlett Packard Needless to say, the views I express are probably not shared by Bill, Dave, John Young or any of the executive council here at HP. *sigh*
tlr@umcp-cs.UUCP (Terry L. Ridder) (12/12/85)
I have a problem with this type of posting. My reasons are as follows: Those of us who do spend money to keep the NET running should not be paying for some HEADHUNTER to have FREE advertising. Given the recent postings concerning headhunters and the reasons as to why a person should not use a headhunter, what HEADHUNTER in their right mind (do they right minds?) would post this kind of article to the net. I would tend to think that the HEADHUNTER does not read net.jobs and justs post to it. Terry L. Ridder -- Terry L. Ridder 401 Cherry Lane E301 Laurel, Maryland 20707 UUCP: seismo!mimsy.umd.edu!tlr OR seismo!neurad!terry UUCP: seismo!(mimsy.umd.edu|neurad)!bilbo!(root|tlr) ARPA: tlr@maryland PHONE: 301-490-2248 (home)
lwm@iuvax.UUCP (12/14/85)
I think I can understand why this type of posting makes some people nervous. However, I think it is worthwhile if we pause and reconsider before kindling too many flames. The posting from mdee!root is basically a product anouncement. Product announcements are nothing new on the net. Since the product in question is employment services, it should not be surprising that it is posted here. All product announcements are invitations to people and/or companies to buy a product which benefits the manufacturer financially. Postings of job openings by companies are not purely information offered for the benefit of job seekers; there are financial benefits here too. It costs little or nothing to post a job opening on the net. It saves the company with the opening considerable money though. A wide audience of potential employees can be reached without having to purchase newspaper ads in all the cities reached by usenet. It takes man-hours of work on the part of the people in a company's personnel office to get the word out all over the country if it is done without the net. A penny saved is a penny earned. Postings by job seekers are similarly of a commercial nature. A job seeker is selling his services and advertising them on the net. No one can deny that considerable time (time is money) is saved by job seekers by using the net to send out resumes. Don't forget postage saved either. As far as headhunters in particular, I know many of us do not have good impressions of them. I have had my share of annoyances with some of them too. The tactics used by some of them can be truly offensive. They are not all like that though, and many professionals actually like to use headhunters. Likewise, many companies like to use them. They consider it an extension of their personnel departments (which are just in-house headhunters after all). Many start-up companies don't have a real personnel department yet, but may have some excellent job opportunities to offer. They have to rely on someone else to find employees for them. Additionally, all companies with attractive openings are not on the net. Having mdee on the net may allow us to hear of an interesting position we wouldn't otherwise know about. As far as tactics go, I would rather have a headhunter post a job opening on the net for me to consider at my leisure than call me in my office or, worse yet, at my home. I think postings of job openings in net.jobs is appropriate no matter who does it. If anyone has an aversion to dealing with headhunters, the posting can be ignored, just as one would ignore a posting from a company for whom one doesn't want to work. Granted, it would be better form for mdee!root to post specific job openings rather than a general announcement which, unfortunately, cannot be seen as anything other than an advertisement. I consider this to be an error in "netiquette" rather than a gross offense. I'm sure mdee!root will take note. Larry Meehan uucp: ...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!lwm csnet: lwm@Indiana ARPA: lwm.Indiana@CSnet-Relay usnail: Indiana University C. S. Dept. Lindley 101 Bloomington, IN 47405
ted@bcsaic.UUCP (ted jardine) (12/16/85)
In article <420@ur-helheim.UUCP> dave@helheim.UUCP (David F. Carlson) writes: >In article <153@mdee.UUCP> root@mdee.UUCP (root) writes: >>Marilyn Dee Associates Inc. is a search and recruiting firm for >>the computer professional. ... > >Headhunters on the net??!! ... >Dave Carlson >{allegra,seismo,decvax}!rochester!ur-valhalla!dave Inspite of the fact that I do not wish to enter into an argument, I must say that I find very little, if anything at all, offensive about the infrequent articles submitted by Marilyn Dee. I am not a spokesman for mdee, and have no intention of defending the company (primarily because no defense is needed). I believe that it is fair, however, to point out that mdee bought and paid for their Un*x system including the modems, etc., and pay their fare share for access to the network. I have spoken with Marilyn Dee on the telephone and find her company's approach to be professional and relatively low key. Best to throw your harpoons at someone else. TJ (with Amazing Grace) The Piper (aka Ted Jardine) CFI-AI Boeing Artificial Intelligence Center ...uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!ted
dave@ur-helheim.UUCP (David F. Carlson) (12/19/85)
The difference between a new product announcement and what mdee!root posted
is:
1) Since mdee is established enough to be on the net (ie own an expensive not
necessarily indespensible computer) it is reasonable to assume that their
company has been in the AI search game for a while. Therefore what they offer
is *not* a *new product*.
2) What mdee offers is not a product at all. It is a service. What if decvax
posted advertisements for dec service contacts on unix-wizards for all the people
who post there with complaints of "mchk: tbuf parity" errors. Not very good
netiquette at all.
I agree that this is more an oversight in netiquette than a gross violation,
(as my friend at iuvax points out), but as this is the first instance I have
witnessed of this sort I thought it important to point it out to the readers
so this net doesn't allow itself to become net.headhunter. We are a self-
policing body. (ie anarchy!)
If the headhunters want to scam resume's from this net, that's ok but advertising
I can't stomach.
Q: If someone posts a resume, can a headhunter show it? (Does public distribution
imply consent to have someone get/offer you a job?)
Reply in this forum. How 'bout you mdee!root?
dave
--
"The Faster I Go the Behinder I Get"
--Lewis Carroll
Dave Carlson
{allegra,seismo,decvax}!rochester!ur-valhalla!davemartinl@molihp.UUCP (Martin M Lacey) (12/20/85)
In article <44900002@hpcnof.UUCP> dat@hpcnof.UUCP writes: >Terry, > > >*leaping onto my handy soapbox* > > As far as paying for free advertising...all the policing in the >world isn't going to stop it, and I think that if the postings are >relevent and reasonable (and short!) then I'm not adverse to having >them. > > On the other hand, I do encourage the personnel groups to >minimize the length of their postings... > > *Climbing off of my soapbox* > > If we all just learned to be more mellow, I think the world >would be a far better place to live... > > -- Dave Taylor > Hewlett Packard Dave, I think your last comment put it best, I should be applied to more than this subset of the net. *MELLOW* is the key, accept the net as it is - and not to be so quick to jump up and yell fire. It's just information, and should stay that way. Information *IS* what the net is all about, isn't it ?... This has been a paid pollitical broadcast :-) Martin la Magician. Oh, here it comes, the ol' disclaimer (just what i need, something to disclaim). <DISCLAIMER: Opinions or ideas expressed are all mine, mine!... Dispite fears, I don't read others thoughts and display them - without permission. Rest easy associates. >